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Grand-Stone

Empire of the Blazing sun versus FSA

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My army:
Large
1 Ayakashi (cloce combat varriant)
1 Kaiju

1 Yurei (Forward)
3 Tanuke
3 Hansu (Mk1, agressive)
3 Nagasu
1 Heavy Bomber

5 Tetsubo
5 Fujin
5 Zarigani (Forward)
4 Sui (I noticed I've cheated with some points...)
---
It's a little bit of everything. (mostly cuz that's the figures I have)
But, it's a boarding and rockets heavy fleet. All units (almost all) have rockets, flames and boarding.


His army

Large (based on memory)
1 Dreadnaught
3 Battleships (one heavy)

Medium
1 Battlecruiser
3 John Henry's  (Flanking)
3 heavy cruisers
1 submarine including 6 turtles and disruption node generator

Smalls
3 (or 4) squads of frigates
1 squad of corvets
6 turtles (*Grrr*, how can I handle those???)

Heavy on large units, superior long range firepower

He got kill all mediums, I got destroy 70% of his army.

Setup
Our battlefield was slightly to big. We had a 60'' long table. I wonder what effect that has compared to 48'' table...

His flanking forces arrives round 1.

The EoBS finally one a battle again. :)

A few points

Point 1
I now found out why activation spam is so powerful. In this setup there where two things I wanted to do. I wanted to activate my Tetsubu after the John Henries arrivs, and I wanted my Terror-ship to activate after the submarine has activated. His submarine was the only thing that could threaten my Terror ship. Since I was one activation short, I could not do any of them...

This lead to him arriving the the John Henries at the table and being able to fire at my cruisers at preaty close up and he did a lot of damage. I then had to spend a lot of effort to take down his John Henries. Including striking him with my fighter SAS.

This leads me to the question: how does fighters SAS versus flying units work?
We played it as AA is rolled simultainius, and linking AA was allows. But what is the to hit number in this case? Does it matter if the flying unit is concealed?   

Point 2:

reroll 3 dice is extremly powerful versus my submerged Zariganies. (but still they managed to do their job). But even so, they are increddible difficult to strike down before they can pop up.

Point 3:

seeing his units (both submarine and battlecruiser) die of flames&corrosive in the end phase is a heck of a lot of fun though... (getting a quadruple critticle with corrosive flamer combined with an earlier fussion leak gave the battlecruiser far to many corrosive markes to surive.

 

Point 4:
Never EVER try to assault with you terror ship!
I did so, and lost all 5 AP before I could try to move onto the corvette (wanted to test the terror rules for baording). Loosing 5AP, I was defense-less versus his Turtles.

Point 5:
Finaly I did manage to use sonic generator. It worked on the FSA turtles. Lucky stroke. It delayed their rampage one turn.

Point 6:
How do you take care of the FSA turtles? I mean, there is nothing I can do? (almost nothing. I planed to take them with my Heavy Bomber and indiscriminate heavy bombing, but, I did not reach them in time)

Question: if I have security posts, and no marines, what is needed to board me?


Point 7:
Ramming is such a nice tool. There is nothing which states that you cannot ram many targets at the same time. And there is a very small probability that a small unit will damage a medium, but a high probability that medium will kill a small. I killed all turtules in one ram action (but only after they have boarded my terror ship) (answere the point 4: wait for them to kill something, then ram them all. Any better solutions?)

We haven't used it much cuz we always had to look up the rules. But now we think we know the rules, thus it works brilliantly.

Point 8:
Hiding corvets behind my Battlerobot was a beautiful tactic :)

Point 9: The Nagasu <3

I've more often than not found out that the Nagasu is a wonderful unit.

It has a 10 dice rockets attack at RB 4, which with some luck can damage and start a fire of a BB. But, it's rockets can be also used as 3x5 attack dice versus small. Compare it that two it's bigger brother the Hansu, MKI. The Hansu has 6 rockets, but due to it being capital its average number of hits is equal to 3/5*6= 3.8 (hit number 5), while the Nagasu has 4/5*5= 4 (hit number 4).  But since in DW the typical number is less than the average due to a large 'high damage tail', the typical number is lower than the average (unless you roll very many dice). And this effect is much verse for the 5+ hit than for the 4+ hit. I should be doing an proper analyses of the probabilities at some stage, but end of the line, the Nagasu is far better at hunting smalls. And 3x rockets isn't that bad. With 3 tries, you should kill one. And in my game on saturday, the rockets did it's jobb. In one activation it killed 2 out of 3 targets for the rockets, and a corvette with it's torpedo. In that one activation, it killed 70pts alone :)

The Nagasus second weapons system is it's torpedeos. With faster torpedeos, it's good both against smalls and mediums. Not that great versus large maybe. And fixed channels isn't that difficult to use straight forwards.

The third weapon, it's broadside. My experience is that is far to difficult to set-up to use regulary. It's to big, and medium turning template, and if you try, you end up comprimising where it is heading far to much. At least for linked fire, it's hopeless difficult. I tend to ignore the broadsides. But in some cases, they are wonderful... When you can sneak a Nagasu up innbetween two units. Mediums or smalls. With 8 dice on both sides, it kills smalls very easily.

Then last, it has 3AP+2terror tactics. Which means that this unit, spesilized at killing smalls, suddenly becomes a huge boarding threat to large units. In this game it boarded and prized a BB. It has taken lots of HP damage, but only a few AP damage. But it did it's jobb easily.

It's bigger brother, Hansu Mk I, is better versus large. It's better protected, has better torpedoes, better rockets, better protection. But it's not better versus smalls, and it cost a lot more. The Nagtsu (full squad) only cost 155pt.

10. point

Question: a unit with a template, does the entire template block line of sight?
(we played it that way)


11. point

A few flames and a few HP down, and almost anything in my fleet could board any of his Battleships.

12. point

Sas (at least how we played fighters versus flyers) is very effective.
I had more SAS than him, but had to sacrifice them (and AP) to take care of the John Henries. (having them at RB 1 to my right flank was not an alternative) My opponent did not realise how damaging that rampage was. I sacrificed SAS and AP to take him down. The SAS I could have used to take out his fighters to protect both my heavy bombers and Tetsebu's.

13. point. Ayakashi needs a lot turns to come into position. And while doing so, it's damage output is low (for a 380pt unit). But man is it fun when it finaly manages to strike something. In this match I was unlucky, I only killed 8 (out of 10) hp when striking it in melee. So I had to finish it of with my corvets. That turned out to be better, cuz then I had a priced BB blocking line of sight to my Ayakashi. (unless it is so big that the FSA could see it even if an other large unit is blocking LoS)

The close combat varriant of the robot: I don't view it as overpowered. There might be some isues in a 750pt battle where it is over 50% of the cost alone... But that would be true for anything above a given cost. Haven't tried the rockets version though.


14. point.

In the last round I managed to prise two Battleships.

Out kill ration was almost similar, but I think I have taken out slightly more of his army than he has of mine. I had a few smalls, some damaged Nagsu's left and my two bigs. He had his Dreadnaught, one damaged BB, two cruisers and a few smalls left.

 

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On a couple of your points.

Point 1: AA is a normal attack, it is simultaneous, and it is affected by height levels and other modifiers.

Point 2 & 6: You take out turtles much the same as zariganies- overcompensating firepower or wait till after they surface.  Your torps could help since the rest of the squad can not assist with CC.  Area bombardment only affects surface models so odds are the bomber would not have helped much.  If you have 0 AP then security posts do not matter.  If a single AP gets past the AA then they win.

Point 3: Flamethrowers are not able to get multiple crits so how exactly did this play out?

Point 7: You may only declare a single ram target per ship movement - anything else you hit simply counts as a collision.  Since the target was turtles who are able to change height levels they should have gotten a chance to roll for evasion, did your opponent fail to save any of his turtles this way?

Point 10: Yep.  The base is the model so all blocking.

Point 13: Massive is Massive so the dread blocks LoS.

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1 hour ago, Veldrain said:

On a couple of your points.

Point 1: AA is a normal attack, it is simultaneous, and it is affected by height levels and other modifiers.

Point 2 & 6: You take out turtles much the same as zariganies- overcompensating firepower or wait till after they surface.  Your torps could help since the rest of the squad can not assist with CC.  Area bombardment only affects surface models so odds are the bomber would not have helped much.  If you have 0 AP then security posts do not matter.  If a single AP gets past the AA then they win.

Point 3: Flamethrowers are not able to get multiple crits so how exactly did this play out?

Point 7: You may only declare a single ram target per ship movement - anything else you hit simply counts as a collision.  Since the target was turtles who are able to change height levels they should have gotten a chance to roll for evasion, did your opponent fail to save any of his turtles this way?

Point 10: Yep.  The base is the model so all blocking.

Point 13: Massive is Massive so the dread blocks LoS.

Thanks a lot. Seems like we forgot about a few details.

1) Then I think we got it right.

2) & 6) So basicly there are no ways of taking out turtles which makes any sense at all... At hate those bastards.

3) In flamethrowers, it says you get an extra fire if you crit. With corrossive, it states you get an extra corrossive marker when you do a crittical. I read it like you then get +1 fire per crittical and +1 corrosive marker for each critical.

7) Ok. Sadly we forgot about the evations. I would never have ramed if they could evade. *sad* face. Why cannot I declare ram on the entire group in my path. That is so epic :)

 

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43 minutes ago, Grand-Stone said:

But I can still collide whith them on purpose, and in the case of BB versus frigate, would basicly have the same effect?

Against turtles it would not matter at all since a DR hit finishes them.  Something dedicated to ramming like the British subs need to worry about it more when going against mediums.  Or EotBS frigates for that matter. 

As for taking out the turtles early, anything with long range could do it with enough AD.  The heavy bomber and small friends may be up to the task of whacking two on the first turn.  For everyone you take you severely diminish their boarding potential.  If they happen to break (not likely being FSA) it effectively removes them as a threat for the game. 

Quote

In flamethrowers, it says you get an extra fire if you crit. With corrossive, it states you get an extra corrossive marker when you do a crittical. I read it like you then get +1 fire per crittical and +1 corrosive marker for each critical.

The rules state nothing of the sort regarding critical hits.  For corrosive if you equal the DR you place one marker.  If you equal or exceed the CR you place 2.  If you exceed the CR by 0 or 100 you will only lay on two markers.  Nothing says that Corrosive is based off of the number of crits rolled.  This is similar for Incendiary, Lethal Strike, and the others.

Flamethrowers also use the Equal or Exceed wording.  If you get 30 hits you still only inflict one critical.  This minimized damage is the price flamethrowers suffer for being able to combine instead of link fire.

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Regarding the turtles: I think it is a big difference between the Turtles and the Zarigani, as the Turtles uses regular boarding, while Zarigani is a robot.  The Turtles can board almost anything in one go, while the Zarigani can only prepare a target for assaulting. And no, it isn't a valid tactic to use AD to strike them out one by one.

I think we forgot about the CC. That could have taken one or two out I guess.

 

Technically you may be right about the Flames and corrosive markers, but I'm not sure if that is the intension of the rules.  For the Flamer & Heavy flamer I think it is fair that they shoud, at-least, get +1 fire token per crittical.  The corrosive is a bit more bad-ass since it could also be given to any other weapon. 

 

When attacking mediums, it would then be far better to devide the attack up into a 9 dice and a 6 dice attack when attacking with your Zariganies.

 

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Regarding the turtles: I think it is a big difference between the Turtles and the Zarigani, as the Turtles uses regular boarding, while Zarigani is a robot.  The Turtles can board almost anything in one go, while the Zarigani can only prepare a target for assaulting. And no, it isn't a valid tactic to use AD to strike them out one by one.

I think we forgot about the CC. That could have taken one or two out I guess.

 

Technically you may be right about the Flames and corrosive markers, but I'm not sure if that is the intension of the rules.  For the Flamer & Heavy flamer I think it is fair that they shoud, at-least, get +1 fire token per crittical.  The corrosive is a bit more bad-ass since it could also be given to any other weapon. 

One could intepert the 'multiple critical rules' as if it counts as exceeding the CR twice...

When attacking mediums, it would then be far better to devide the attack up into a 9 dice and a 6 dice attack when attacking with your Zariganies.

 

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15 minutes ago, Grand-Stone said:

Technically you may be right about the Flames and corrosive markers, but I'm not sure if that is the intension of the rules.  For the Flamer & Heavy flamer I think it is fair that they shoud, at-least, get +1 fire token per crittical.  The corrosive is a bit more bad-ass since it could also be given to any other weapon. 

FAQ question 40.  I am correct whether you want to believe it or not.  If it was not their intent then they had the perfect opportunity to change it.  They did not.

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