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eje005

Sorylian Advantages

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21 hours ago, MinscS2 said:

Or are you denying that 8 HP with 2 shields and possibly escort/SRS protection is better than 10 HP with 0 shields and no SRS/escorts?

Yes considering you have to purchase those shields and escorts and they cost a lot.

21 hours ago, MinscS2 said:

We're comparing battleships in a vacuum no?

And in a vacuum, biohazard ignores weapon shielding.

21 hours ago, MinscS2 said:

Paying to remove Vulnerable is paying to remove a bad MAR. Paying for Weaponshielding is paying to add good Mar.

Let me put it this way.  They built both ships with weaknesses.  For 15 points on the Sorylian ship you are sometimes increasing it's defenses.  For the same price on the Veydreth ship you are increasing its defenses always.

21 hours ago, MinscS2 said:

At least the Swordbreaker has a bigger chance of surviving the battle.

I find this claim to be a bit too vague, and entirely unsupported with any argument.  Less HP and shields is probably about as even an exchange as possible.

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3 hours ago, eje005 said:

And in a vacuum, biohazard ignores weapon shielding.

Let me put it this way.  They built both ships with weaknesses.  For 15 points on the Sorylian ship you are sometimes increasing it's defenses.  For the same price on the Veydreth ship you are increasing its defenses always.

Biohazard is not free, so your opponent has to pay to negate your advantage.

Are you assuming your opponent will always reroll his critically when you have Vulnerable?  I know I wouldn't whenever the first roll is not disappointing.

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3 hours ago, eje005 said:

Yes considering you have to purchase those shields and escorts and they cost a lot.

20 points buys 4 PD and 1 AP on a DT hull. 15 points buys another, potentially exploding shield die. Or, you could go another route, if PD isn't an issue- 45 points buys 3 Flechettes, adding 3 PD (due to linking a minimum of 1), 3 AP, and +4/+6/-/- to your guns, on DT hulls. Are you suggesting that degree of bonus just doesn't count because it costs points? Because those are huge bonuses, and not having the option for them is not a small disadvantage. The other ship in question will never be able to become that good; it doesn't have the option. It cannot scale up its effectiveness for larger games; a Predator is a Predator pretty much no matter what you pick for it.

And in a vacuum, biohazard ignores weapon shielding.

So we should act like it's a negative thing rather than a bonus against most opponents? Y'know, even then, not every ship/weapon system in a Directorate fleet can mount Biohazard, nor can every ship in a Relth fleet. So even then there's a chance that non-bio damage will double up on bio damage, and you'll still have effectively benefited from Wep Shielding. Should Biohazard be more expensive because it ignores Wep Shielding? Gravity ignores shields, and no one is treating shields like they're worthless because a couple of factions can take Gravity.

Let me put it this way.  They built both ships with weaknesses.  For 15 points on the Sorylian ship you are most of the time increasing it's defenses.  For the same price on the Veydreth ship you are getting to keep an already bad situation from becoming slightly to ridiculously worse- you're still taking the crit, nothing can stop that.

I find this claim to be a bit too vague, and entirely unsupported with any argument.  Less HP and shields is probably about as even an exchange as possible.

Nooooope. Because those shields have a high potential to impact every incoming hit, including the potential to explode, the Predator is going to take more crits on the nose- which, mind you, come with additional nasty effects, but even then the process of shaving down the occassional crit to a damage and damage down to nothing is going to add more than 2 hull worth of "blocked damage" on an 8 hull ship, particularly if you've got both shields. If the Pred had more hull I might question it, but as is? Nah.

I like this red text format. I might have to use it more often. 

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Why can't y'all agree that both battleships aren't particularly exceptional?  Well, with Weapon Shielding, the Sorylian Battleship might have the highest AD of any Battleship in the game at -7HP, and the Predator can be a fantastic mine-layer with a 9" Mv and 2x7 AD Mines or 1x 10 AD Mines.

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I think the collective battleship with weapon shielding is one of the best battleships:), 14 dice either side then torps is very juicy, at rb2 if the terran dreadnought links its turrets and broadsides together in rb2 it gets 15 dice:P 3.o better change that! otherwise ill be buying sorylian battleships^^

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14 hours ago, Ryjak said:

Why can't y'all agree that both battleships aren't particularly exceptional?

Because that's, unfortunately, not how the internet works. These two are probably going to rail at each other until kingdom come, because urmagurd, someone else is wrong on the internet.

Edit: the following is not directed at Ryjak, but rather the Predator/Falx discussion

This community has worked out plenty of ways to be successful with Sorylians, the Falx included. I've tried the methods myself and can vouch for them.  Is the Falx a superawesomemegadeathship like the Hydra or Anarchist? No. But it is a workable piece of equipment if you treat it right.  Hell, in this case, I think the Falx's situation is more an indictment of ships like the Anarchist and Hydra than itself.  Power creep is a thing.  We can only hope that Sorylians get theirs when they get a 2-player box and/or 3.0 drops.

Also note, that internal balance (i.e., balance within the Sorylian fleet) is a thing.  What Sorylians lack in T1 is made up for in the T2 and T3 slots.

The solutions, therefore, are thus:

- Give constructive feedback to Spartan

- Ask the community for help in understanding how to use your assets to their fullest

- Be patient and wait for the updates/changes coming down the pipe

- Pick a new T1 to use in the meantime

- Shelve the Sorylians in favor of those "better" factions for the meantime

Ignore any/all of this to your own peril.

/rant

 

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- In theory, it should be obvious my quoted statement was only semi-serious.  However, this entire forum is (semi-)constructive feedback for Spartan on their game... in fact, it's the only way, as there is no other mechanism for players to report their play experience, and SG does occasionally make changes due to this feedback (Destroyers, anyone?)

- I'm going to give the forum posters the benifit of the doubt and assume they have already done their job and scoured the Internet for how to us their respective Battleships, and understandably found them wanting.

- Hoping the rules will be changed never works

- Two issues here: 1, each faction's Battleship is the only viable option for the Admiral's vessel; alternatives are too fragile for this role.  2. TACs are a thing, and it can be very benificial to use them on Turn 1, which requires the Admiral to start on the table... And neither of these Battleships wants to start on the table.  Xaltius, do you have any suggestions here?

- Also not viable; might as well tell your next opponent you won't play him unless he brings a new fleet with new models to each game, or you won't play against him.

- Finally, don't be an ass-hat.

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On 7/7/2016 at 11:19 PM, Xaltius said:

These two are probably going to rail at each other until kingdom come, because urmagurd, someone else is wrong on the internet.

Like Ryjak said, this is the constructive conversation.  No one is is throwing insults or implying the stupidity of the other.  

 

On 7/7/2016 at 11:19 PM, Xaltius said:

- Ask the community for help in understanding how to use your assets to their fullest

That is what is being done?

Just because people are disagreeing doesn't mean it's become anything other than civilized discussion.

 

 

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Sorylians have different advantages than other factions and simple stats can't reflect them completely. Most of them were mentioned already.

One of their biggest advantages with larger squadron number is not only BL manipulation, better FSD chance, better PD as a group and better max linked attack. One of the biggest advantages is firing them in pairs or threes depending on squadron size. Where most Cruiser squadrons total 14-16AD together in one powerful attack and they can fire it in three 7-8AD or one 10-12AD and one 7-8AD attack. When firing at other Cruisers with 4/7 average this isn't really effective. Only Sorylian Cruisers can do it differently and fire two salvos of 12AD which should be enough for two crits. Only Aquan Heavy Cruisers can do it too with ET and go up to two 13AD attacks. That's a very powerful tool as it can delete one whole cruiser in one activation. With good positioning you can even do it on both sides - for this Heavies are awesome as they don't care about RB1-RB2 plus their fore is also devastating. One trick to deal with Dindrenzi is to plink each and every Cruiser you can on approach, long range shots, with Frigates etc. and when you get your squadron in RB2 you either divide it 12AD, 12AD and hope one is going to crit it or go for a crit with 16AD and finishing 8AD (also possibly a crit against CR6 now and one more roll on crit table for 1+1).

Same goes for Frigates (Reaper, Scythe) as they are one of the few going up to 14AD with Pack Hunters and being able to fire it in three arcs...even though it's not easy to accomplish. No other Frigate squadron can fire three 14AD attacks if I am not mistaken. It's hard to pull it off, but if you do it's pure awesome. With their above average speed they do have a chance to do it and can select their targets.

Now the dreaded Falx...in our local group we LOVE IT. Granted it's the squishiest battleship of all core factions, but if you accept its role is not to brawl with other battleships and dreadnoughts you find out it's great. We treat is as a bigger battlecruiser built for speed. So our basic setup is +2" Mv, second shield and Weapon Shielding totalling 215 points, average for a solo battleship. With the new Light Frigate accompaniment option I would gladly play it with three for 260 points, again average for battleship with smalls. You might say Falx is overcosted and if compared in a vacuum it probably is by a few points, but with the whole fleet in mind I don't believe it really is. Just consider those new Light Frigates...yes, they cost and give you the same AD and PD as Dindrenzi escorts, but they are much faster, Agile, bring 2AP each and most importantly have scatter weapons too...so when your Falx is firing at DT ships they can link in without negating his scatter (coherence effect). This is not a negligible boost and Dindrenzi players might argue they want the same for those points.

 

Not sure how many games you played and what your experience is overall, but if you are struggling you need to experiment and keep playing. With 2.0 out and my only fleet Directorate then you might thought I was okay...I was not and I lost most of my games before I figured how to build a working fleet in the first place, then how to include cyber and use it effectively etc. Some fleets are easier to use in general (like Aquans) and all have different learning curve. It pretty much doesn't matter which faction you play because when you gather enough experience you should be able to handle all of them. But for that you need to understand how the game is working from end to end and you need to know your faction.

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The reason I chose to start with Sorylians is because their description is as tough ships, close range knife fighters and brawlers. Sounded great to me and exactly what I wanted. Yeah, nope. At least, not how I imagined it would be.

They're tough in a roundabout way that is, I feel, eminently unsatisfying. Bigger squadron sizes is the key to it, they can take the hits, blow up and still keep a threat on the board, still keep the damage coming in multiple arcs. They're good and I get more wins with my Sorylians than my other factions (I even managed to place 3rd at the Reading Warfare tournament last year with them).

Thing with tournaments is that time is not on your side, you can't always rely on shunt bombing your fleet in (because I've run to time more than once in tournament conditions with a squadron or more still not having turned up) and can reach that time when your ship's endurance comes into its own in the late game to find times up.

So you need to make your way up the board carefully in those early turns, hugging scenery and doing nothing risky to arrive with as much strength as possible.

Standard table is 48 inches across, you can deploy up to 8 inches on and can move 10 inches with your cruisers. 16 inch guns meaning you can potentially threaten 34 inches from your table edge in your first turn, adding in the speed boost TAC gets you 37 inches of threat. Still not enough.

But turn 2? From a forward position a few inches up your speed (and abundance of smalls!) means you can get those 16 inch range bands into stuff, especially if the mission means people can't hug their baseline.

Even better though is turn 3. Spend turns 1 and 2 hiding and coming forward, avoiding direct lines of fire, hide among your interceptor cover, use the +spd TAC to make sure your ships are able to get forward and able to make those last few inches or extra turn or two to make wiggling through the asteroids and debris as safe as possible. Find a planet, whatever. Delay the real engagement to turn 3. Then your ships come steaming out to engage, this also means your ships in reserve are more likely to arrive with the rest of your fleet.

Really doesn't play like the 'tough, durable, brawlers' I was sold on though...

Here's fun. The Cruisers. You're not going to reliably get both broadsides, not until things have gotten properly tangled up. But getting the fore and a single broadside is much easier. Full strength that's 2x12AD and 2x9AD plus a 10AD torp volley at two different squadrons. 9AD will often crit a cruiser on CR7 (then shields often make that a 50/50) or at least a hull point. Those 12ADs will crit cruisers unless their shields explode or plink a T1. 2x12AD on the same cruiser should destroy it. Hell those 2x9AD could do it too. 10AD torps is...I dunno, some more dice to roll because interceptors will render them irrelevant but you can always hope for 6s.

But what about away from the rare time your squadron arrives unharmed? One cruiser has been crit and another plinked? The other two unharmed (you've been hiding remember)? Link an undamaged with a damaged

Undamaged+half health = 11AD (8+((8-2=6)/2=3)) and 8AD (6+((6-2=4)/2=2)) fore...umm...you basically lost one dice from each gun and that really doesn't change how you were going to use them.

You're putting out 2x11AD, 2x8AD and 10AD torps. Again, on different squadrons.

What about smalls though? Link the damaged ones but the undamaged ones can solo smalls. 6AD to the front should average a crit on CR4. if they're CR5+ then you need to link. 8AD to the sides should crit any small (without shield cover). every shot should kill a small basically. Link to confirm kills on smalls.

The rest of your fleet does this too. Each of your activations can reliably damage two of theirs. Bringing down the threat of ships that haven't even acted yet so that when they do activate this turn they're less of a threat.

Boarding is how you score an extra HP or 2, it's not for capturing anything. You use it to beat up that extra cruiser that you didn't have a spare gun to shoot with.

TACs...there are two TACs in the game for Sorylians. +spd and +fleet tactics bonus. +spd to get your fleet forward and in cover during those early turns. +fleet tactics to help you get the first activation in the critical turns when you've exposed yourself to the enemy. You need to damage multuiple squadrons, reduce their threat so when they activate they are less scary.

Sorry, rambling...

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Hit the enemy with whatever Kinetics and Torpedoes you have available, Hastas, Warwolves and Harvesters are good for that. Then, when you've done a good amount of damage and the opponent is wondering why you didn't just take Dindrenzi, rush in with Falcatas, Reapers, Hastas and Flechettes and board stuff. If it can't be boarded, hit it with the Scatter Weapons. One part Dindrenzi tactical doctrine to one part Very Angry Socialist Space Lizard. Seems to work fine for me. 

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