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atlervetok

struggling with oroshan

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ive got a relthoza patrol fleet + a nidus squadron and im struggling against an oroshan patrol fleet. so far 3 games played 3 losses.

are the oroshan naturral counters to the relthoza or am i just doing something wrong? if so please help.

 

i normally try to rely on cloak and stealth, but the oroshan generally outrange my ships. when i try closing the distance my frigates just get vaprized, my cruisers can take maybe 1 salvo and then they are done. any advice would be great

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Oroshan cruisers are some of the scariest in the game. How do you have your cruisers built, regular/heavy/mix/magnetized? Our heavy cruisers are very very good and might help you push through.

I would shunt your frigates in as well, or at least outflank. 12AD to the rear of an oroshan cruiser should crit it easily. Don't rush up the field, with your cloak up and outside 20" for stealth you shouldn't be taking too many hits, use your torps to pick off some of those slayer frigates.

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29 minutes ago, Nuck Fewton said:

Oroshan cruisers are some of the scariest in the game. How do you have your cruisers built, regular/heavy/mix/magnetized? Our heavy cruisers are very very good and might help you push through.

I would shunt your frigates in as well, or at least outflank. 12AD to the rear of an oroshan cruiser should crit it easily. Don't rush up the field, with your cloak up and outside 20" for stealth you shouldn't be taking too many hits, use your torps to pick off some of those slayer frigates.

normal cruisers and yes i normally just rush up <.< cause i take tones of damage at 20inch and cant do any in return

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This is kind of a tricky thing to discuss... I've had maybe four posts fully written that I've decided not to post on the subject of where and why the Relthoza tend to struggle, and Oroshan somewhat epitomize the problem... In any case, that's a topic for another time that I'm sure I'll rewrite twice or thrice more. In the meantime, I would look into a few things.

-What are you doing with your Battleship? If you're planning on bringing Interceptors, leave that to the Nidus- I'll get to that in a jiffy, though. Wings on the BB is almost a must, you really can't deny how juicy that makeshift BattleCarrier is. Relth, uniquely, get some great usage out of Fighters due to the Drone Repairs TAC- Fighters tend to drop off quickly in effectiveness when damaged, but you've got a counter to that. Since you're saying that hurting them on the approach is an issue, I would strongly consider using Fighters for your SRS loadout to get that extra range, even though the Bomber's AD looks way better.

-Reserve Widows- it's tempting to let Systems Network make them survivable, but it doesn't do much for you in the long run. Better to not get shot at at all than to get shot at but have have defensive buffs- particularly since the Widows don't do anything at long range and are so nasty in close quarters. Relth smalls in general are all great, btw.

-On the flip side, since losing wings for not having enough carrier space only happens when the token returns to base, your Nidus make a great platform for Interceptors, who will very rarely ever RTB. Since Nidus are also one of the few Relth ships that have good forward firepower, they'll serve you way better starting on the table.

-Relth cruisers are a gamble. On one hand, they put out stupid amounts of firepower when they make it to effective range, on the other they have a hard time making it to effective range and rarely do anything other than torpedo snipe a frigate or two before they can get some broadside shots in. If you can sub one for a Heavy Cruiser, that could make a big difference in their survivability. Relth (and their natural allies) have the dubious honor of having the best usage of the Mixed Cruiser Squadrons rule in the game right now- the mixed squad is fantastic for so many reasons, not the least of which is the 6 hull self-repairing brick you've got leading two glass cannons. Every time I think to do this recently, I've decided against it and regretted it. I'm not saying that the all-Cruisers squadron is bad, but in such a small game where they're your biggest AD source you have nothing else to draw fire for them and they are bad. 

-If you're going the route of asking what you should get next that would help with the specific problems you're having, I would look into either a Destroyer box of the Reinforcement box. Reinforcement box either gets you Gunships with beam AD out to 30" and additional defences and can battle shunt forward, which solves the exact set of problems you've described, or you can swap your frigates for another set of Cruiser-level defenced hulls that can battle shunt (with somewhat questionable guns, but whatever), OR you can add a pair of Light Cruisers to your Battleship and give it some additional firepower. Destroyers, on the other hand, are cheap for a squad, fire in every direction effectively, can be upgraded to battle shunt, and most importantly are the single best Ambushers in the game, on account of being able to Ambush in cloaks-up. No need to close the gap when you've already got ships up the board! As an added bonus, since Oroshan have somewhat of a foreward firepower focus, getting something behind them early is extremely good.

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Hive knows his space spiders so listen to him. Another caveat is outside 20" with your cloaks up, those cruisers are hitting you with 5 beams that have to re-roll hits. Inside 20" it turns to 10 AD that don't reroll hits. That going from basically no damage to pretty much always a crit. Keep them at arms length until you can hit them with several things at once.

Oh and if you can scrape up another few frigates to go with your battleship, they are awesome to bring along. 

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9 minutes ago, Nuck Fewton said:

Hive knows his space spiders so listen to him. Another caveat is outside 20" with your cloaks up, those cruisers are hitting you with 5 beams that have to re-roll hits. Inside 20" it turns to 10 AD that don't reroll hits. That going from basically no damage to pretty much always a crit. Keep them at arms length until you can hit them with several things at once.

Oh and if you can scrape up another few frigates to go with your battleship, they are awesome to bring along. 

why are the dice the-rolled?

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Stealth Systems.

The caveat here is that Oroshan have a significantly easier time attacking while advancing- you'll have the same issues playing against a Dindrenzi player with Ryjak's mentality, wherein they go for one solid "pass" and then gtfo. They have the advantage in passing through your stealth bubble to swing at you.

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2 hours ago, Hive said:

This is kind of a tricky thing to discuss... I've had maybe four posts fully written that I've decided not to post on the subject of where and why the Relthoza tend to struggle, and Oroshan somewhat epitomize the problem... In any case, that's a topic for another time that I'm sure I'll rewrite twice or thrice more. In the meantime, I would look into a few things.

-What are you doing with your Battleship? If you're planning on bringing Interceptors, leave that to the Nidus- I'll get to that in a jiffy, though. Wings on the BB is almost a must, you really can't deny how juicy that makeshift BattleCarrier is. Relth, uniquely, get some great usage out of Fighters due to the Drone Repairs TAC- Fighters tend to drop off quickly in effectiveness when damaged, but you've got a counter to that. Since you're saying that hurting them on the approach is an issue, I would strongly consider using Fighters for your SRS loadout to get that extra range, even though the Bomber's AD looks way better.

-Reserve Widows- it's tempting to let Systems Network make them survivable, but it doesn't do much for you in the long run. Better to not get shot at at all than to get shot at but have have defensive buffs- particularly since the Widows don't do anything at long range and are so nasty in close quarters. Relth smalls in general are all great, btw.

-On the flip side, since losing wings for not having enough carrier space only happens when the token returns to base, your Nidus make a great platform for Interceptors, who will very rarely ever RTB. Since Nidus are also one of the few Relth ships that have good forward firepower, they'll serve you way better starting on the table.

-Relth cruisers are a gamble. On one hand, they put out stupid amounts of firepower when they make it to effective range, on the other they have a hard time making it to effective range and rarely do anything other than torpedo snipe a frigate or two before they can get some broadside shots in. If you can sub one for a Heavy Cruiser, that could make a big difference in their survivability. Relth (and their natural allies) have the dubious honor of having the best usage of the Mixed Cruiser Squadrons rule in the game right now- the mixed squad is fantastic for so many reasons, not the least of which is the 6 hull self-repairing brick you've got leading two glass cannons. Every time I think to do this recently, I've decided against it and regretted it. I'm not saying that the all-Cruisers squadron is bad, but in such a small game where they're your biggest AD source you have nothing else to draw fire for them and they are bad. 

-If you're going the route of asking what you should get next that would help with the specific problems you're having, I would look into either a Destroyer box of the Reinforcement box. Reinforcement box either gets you Gunships with beam AD out to 30" and additional defences and can battle shunt forward, which solves the exact set of problems you've described, or you can swap your frigates for another set of Cruiser-level defenced hulls that can battle shunt (with somewhat questionable guns, but whatever), OR you can add a pair of Light Cruisers to your Battleship and give it some additional firepower. Destroyers, on the other hand, are cheap for a squad, fire in every direction effectively, can be upgraded to battle shunt, and most importantly are the single best Ambushers in the game, on account of being able to Ambush in cloaks-up. No need to close the gap when you've already got ships up the board! As an added bonus, since Oroshan have somewhat of a foreward firepower focus, getting something behind them early is extremely good.

thanks for the advice, i am intruegued(help how do ispell this) tho why do you think they tend to struggle?

i thought my main issue was i was trying to brute force my way cause the firepower looked amazing, i also thought the stealth would keep me alive.

now im thinking i need to keep my frigates in reserve, cause they do tremendous damage every game they just dont survive a turn.

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while oroshan can lay down one of the biggest sticks in the game from the front, they have very little broadside power so you won't be getting hit on multiple angles either. Try to keep a planetoid inbetween you two then use that as well as a drives to max card to swing into their midst and throw out shots to both sides.

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4 hours ago, Nuck Fewton said:

Hive knows his space spiders so listen to him. Another caveat is outside 20" with your cloaks up, those cruisers are hitting you with 5 beams that have to re-roll hits. Inside 20" it turns to 10 AD that don't reroll hits. That going from basically no damage to pretty much always a crit. Keep them at arms length until you can hit them with several things at once. 

I think this captures the central tactical issue.  Outside of 20", no one is hurting anyone, from 20" - 8", the Oroshan will wreck Relthoza, despite cloaks, and from 8"-0", it's all about positioning and opportunistic boarding.  

If the Cruisers have Pack Hunters, they can toss 12AD or 2x7 AD at a Cloaked target, plus 12AD or 2x7 AD Torps.  That's pretty absurd. That's basically a dead Cruiser, even with Cloak.

So, like so many things, Shunt Entry looks like the main solution.  Whatever starts on the table is there to draw fire (Battleship & Nidus?) while everything else uses Shunt Entry to deliver a decisive blow.  Ideally, you'll bait your opponent to focus on your Battleship, which fails to do any damage, and then cripple two squadrons with your Reserves... Then your Battleship gets within 16" and blasts away.

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6 hours ago, atlervetok said:

thanks for the advice, i am intruegued(help how do ispell this) tho why do you think they tend to struggle?

The short answer is that while they have amazing MARs, AD pools, and defences, they aren't really set up to capitalize on any of it.

 

The long answer is that they have more weaknesses than strengths in quite a few areas- in some ways, they absolutely wreck certain other fleets- Dindrenzi played by a non-Ryjak-strategy commander (camp-and-snipe as opposed to Ryjak's focused advance, then escape strategy), Terrans,  and a handful of the alliance factions often eat dirt against Relth... BUT, more factions don't than do by a wide margin. And the reasons are really surprising, but can be easy to understand when compared to another fleet.

 

Let's start by looking at Stealth Systems- it's a great MAR, but the majority of ships that have it, say most Core 6 Destroyers, Works Raptor, and such, capitalize on it by having weapons that reach out of that range, and then lose that defence within it, where they don't really want to be anyways. Aside from the new Gunships, Relth have -nothing- that can act similarly. Aside from really expensive T1 squads (pair of Battlecruisers, Carrier w/ Cruisers, Battleship w/ Light Cruisers) torpedoes are on the weaker side of average, and very few squads throw appreciable dice in RB3, which, as primaries, are still only halfway out of the bubble. When you consider that in Patrol games, the most common fleet level played at by a wide margin, you often need to buy Stealth for your T1 because you likely won't have other T1s to reliably buddy up, you're paying 10 points for something you need to keep chip damage off in the opening turns but are actively trying to get as little use of as possible- there are only so many turns in a game, and you need to clear that gap and start hurting things seriously. Now, think about how that factors into ships that don't buy it, but already have it- how much hidden cost is that adding to each hull? It should cost -something,- because it is a bonus, but when it, again, is something your offensive loadout actively does not synergize with... You have to wonder.

 

Cloaks, too, have unusual properties in that regard, but it doesn't work to compare them to other cloaked ships. This time, look at Sorylians and ask yourself what they do that works. Why Sorylians? Their weapon profiles are very similar to Relth- similar linked AD, with a weak foreward fixed and far stronger broadsides in Primaries. On the approach, they throw snall AD pools, and then clobber once they're amidst the enemy. Still, they are considered one of the tricker factions to play for a variety of reasons. Why does this matter? Because everything they do similarly to the Relthozans benefits from the way their defences work, with a few notable (cough Falx cough) exceptions. With weaker AD in the front, they can still effectively chip on the approach. With Relth, where cloaks are your protection rather than a shield (And I would argue that the cloaks are better but for the following point) your already meagre foreward forepower is cut further- doubled down on by the lack of additional squadmates Sorylians benefit from. So consider that as you approach, your enemies benefit from both your cloaks and their own defenses, whatever they may be. So, while Sorylians (who also have a slight speed advantage, which is not really super notable but somebody might care) both do and take damage on the advance, their defences never turn off. Relth gamble on doing a smattering of chip damage on the advance, but are almost certainly going to take more than they deal... And then lose their primary defensive system when they actually want to fight. This is actually my main point with regards to Oroshan- they both advance rapidly AND hit hard in the direction they advance in. They're set up to get past everything you're supposed to rely on. Coincidentally, if you look at fleets on the flip side of that, like Terrans or Works Raptor, you see some of the Relth's far more balanced matchups. But remember, Sorylians also have a few long-range foreward ships, too, while with a few exceptions Relth offensive profiles are quite... Same-y accross the fleet- and even after this comparison of fleet synergies in which the Sorylians look like champs, they're still the second most difficult faction to play from the core 6, and although Kedorians, Pathogen, and STL might join them when you add in all the rest of the fleets, Relth and Sorys are still in that bottom subset.

 

Ugh. I have more thoughts on this, but I don't want to be making it seem like Relth are brokenly bad, because they aren't. They just have a lot of attributes that are against their favor in small ways, you know? Like, look at what happened with Heavy Cruisers, early last year was it? They went down 5 points per ship and jumped from being "too expensive to consider" to an auto-take for a good chunk of the Relthozan community at that time. Five. Goddamn. Points. Was all it took. Widows, at the same time, got a DR buff, and are now great and Nidus went from 25 to 20 points, meaning a squad with wings cost what a squad without previously did, and are now great too. It's little things that make a difference.

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You know, there's a very interesting discussion going on in the Sorylian forums about how and why our nemeses fall short. Since I've already vomited out a wall of text here on a similar subject, I'm wondering what other thoughts are floating around on the matter.

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My first fleet was Ba'Kash and it seemed like the simplest to move into Relthoza after that. I think I have almost everything in their range now but I don't find myself running a lot of it. Battlecruisers jump to mind and maybe the assault cruisers. 

I like them and can win with them and I actually have a few opponents who say they are OP but it seems like I lose more than I win. That could just be me not playing them very well. 

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