Fortification placement

[Merlin]

I tried looking this up in the forum search, but I couldn't find anything about it.

Can Fortifications still be placed on top of the water, or can it only be placed on terrain??

The rulebook says that "Universal Fortifications can be placed on either the land or water major surface, as desired, on terrain features that are not classed as impassable to either armoured or naval models."

That sentence is extremely conflicting. First it says that it can be placed on the land or water major surface, which would mean it can be deployed on the water. But then it continues to say "on terrain" which immediately invalidates what it just said.but then it says that the terrain cannot be impassable to Armoured or Naval models. However, most terrain is impassable for Naval models by default.

So which is it? Can it be deployed wherever you want (I.e. On the water, or open ground) or can it only be placed on top of a terrain piece?

[ethicalengineer]

To complete previous question:

Can land fortifications (for example Radar Station, infantry bunkers) be placed on islands when played at water major surface?

[Rabenschwarz]

It's meaning don't place the models in impassible terrain. 

 

After re-reading the rules it seems like I was wrong and you can only place universal fortifications on reefs and sandbars on the water major surface or in hills, swamps, forests, islands and outcrops on the land surface. There may be more things you can put them on in the advanced rules, but I'm on my lunch break right now.

[Rabenschwarz]

Is the island impassable to naval? Yes. Is it impassable to armour? Probably not, but for the sake of a quickly fire answer we'll say no. Therefore the model can be placed on the island.

 

Thought we were still talking about universal fortifications when I answered this one (teach me to read forums on my phone between meetings  ) .

 

By the letter of the rules land fortifications must be placed on terrain features on the land major surface. This would include islands.   

[Merlin]

What I was asking refers to all fortifications. Universal fortifications just have the rule weirdly written.

Essentially, what I am asking is do you need an island, or other type of terrain piece like Sandbars or Reefs, to place a fortification onto, or can you just place the fortification onto the water surface?

For example: Imagine a table with only a single piece of terrain on it. An Island.

Do I have to place my fortification onto that island, if it is in my deployment zone, or can I place it onto the open water?

The rulebook is very vague on this.

Water fortifications have the distinction that they do not go onto a terrain feature.

But universal ones say that they must be placed on a terrain feature. This would essentially make bunker complexes and tower completely useless in Naval games because they just cannot be placed onto the table.

[Amiral X]

Universal fortification (tower and bunker complex mainly) can be place on any major surface (water or land). If placed on land, you cannot place them ontop of terrain feature impassable for armor model, and if placed on water surface you cannot place it on terrain feature that is impassable for naval model.

About island, the fact is that an island change the terrain surface type from water to land under it, so a fortification can be put on an island !

Sanbar and reef doesn't change the type of surface (stile water) but are not impassable for naval model, so tower can be placed on to of them.

[Rabenschwarz]

Universal fortification (tower and bunker complex mainly) can be place on any major surface (water or land). 

 

See, that's what I originally thought, hence my initial "Of course you can" response and why my posts may now seem a little schizophrenic. The relevant sentence is quoted by Merlin, and is cogent (Terrain features go on major surfaces after all). I would argue that you cannot place universal or land fortifications on the major surface. 

 

It seems that terrain generation and selection therefore is really supposed to be a careful selection rather than the "just bung a few islands down" than is common. It does raise the question of what happens to fortifications that cannot deploy.

[Amiral X]

The same as an Ika in a land game with no water on the table : straight  to scrapyard !

 

(joke : I don't think there is any rule for this... ) 

[Merlin]

It would mean you can't deploy them. Even if you brought the Sandbars or reefs, there still is no guarantee that you will get them in your deployment zones.

If the universal fort rules had of just said they follow the rules for land and water forts depending on which core force you are playing (land or naval) then you follow those rules.

But it does not.

[Rabenschwarz]

Well, we worked out how to kill a windsor....

[Merlin]

Actually, it is unaffected. Its not a Universal Fortification. Its a Dreadnought Fortification. Very big difference.

That and its classed as a Massive Armoured Multi-purpose Fortification.

[Rabenschwarz]

It was a joke, but nevermind. Although it does raise a question. If universal fortifications can be deployed in open water why has multipurpose fortification been invented for the dreadforts?

[Erloas]

I think you guys are reading too much into the term terrain.  A perfectly flat plain is land terrain just as much as a street, forest, or rolling hills.  It is just that in gaming terms we refer to "terrain" as a specifically different feature than the board it is sitting on but that is really just short hand for the fact that this part of the terrain (gaming term) is noteworthy compared to the plain/normal terrain (general term).

 

So open water is terrain just as much as a sand bar or a reef, it is just that in general we don't worry about that open terrain so we don't really define it.

 

The fortification can be placed in any place a ship/vehicle of the same type (sea or land) can go.

[Rabenschwarz]

Before I read over it again that was exactly my stance. The problem is that the term "Terrain feature" is defined as a specific term in the rules. The "open terrain" you're talking about is a major surface, not a terrain feature. The difference in wording for the sea fortifications suggests that it's deliberate distinction. The existence of multi-purpose fortifications suggest that it's deliberate.    

[Erloas]

I'm still going with the logical reading.  I think it is just a poor placement of commas.

 

Universal Fortifications may be deployed on either Land or Water Major Surface, as desired.

Universal Fortifications may be deployed on top of Terrain Features that are NOT Impassable to Armoured Models (if deployed on the Land Major Surface), or Naval Models (if deployed on the Water Major Surface). 

 

That is how you would write out that sentence as two sentences when you removed the comma.  That is then very clear as to what they are trying to say. 

 

The descriptions for Land Fortifications and Water Fortifications I think also does a lot to prove that as intent, because then the rules for Universal follows the rules for Land or Water fortifications, just that it can do both, so it conforms to how multi-purpose works too.

[Merlin]

Spartans rulebooks do not conform with logic, or any sort of conventional thought.

So far as the rulebook is concerned if you want to bring a universal fort, you have to have a Sandbar or Reef to place them on. Otherwise they cannot be used.

If it was to use either the Land or Water fortifications rules it would just need to say so. But it doesn't. It has its own set of restrictions. For what reason I do not know, but they are there nonetheless.

I've sent an email off to the rules @spartangames.com address to hopefully get an official answer to this.

I've even asked why any sort of fort has to be placed on a terrain piece. I do not expect an answer to that one, but I'd still like to know

[Amiral X]

So far as the rulebook is concerned if you want to bring a universal fort, you have to have a Sandbar or Reef to place them on. Otherwise they cannot be used.

I really don't read the same thing...

[Merlin]

Word for word from the rule book.

"Universal Fortifications may be deployed on either the Land or Water Major Surface, as desired, ON TOP OF TERRAIN FEATURES that are NOT impassable to Armoured (if deployed on Land Major Surface)or Naval (if deployed on Water Major Surface)."

The Water Major surface is not a Terrain Feature. Its just a surface. Terrain Features are things like Islands Sandbars and Reefs. But since Islands are impassable to Naval models, so only the Sandbars and Reefs can be used to deploy on.

That is what the rulebook is implying.

[Erloas]

I'm just curious if English is your native language Merlin?  I'm sure there are a lot of people on these forums that aren't, and that is perfectly fine, but it just seems like so many of your rules questions hinge around weird interpretations of the way things are worded.  Especially in cases like this where large parts of the sentences are inferred rather than explicitly stated, common in English but I could see how that would be a huge PITA for non-native speakers.

 

I think the key word you are missing in that sentence is "may". The fortification "may" be placed on a terrain piece.  Not "must" be placed or "has to be."  So it is clearly optional.  You may/can place the fortification on a terrain piece (that is not impassible) but you do not have to.

[Merlin]

I am a native speaker. But that sentence, to me at least, does not read that I can deploy it on the land or water major surface or it can be deployed onto a terrain feature.

To me that reads that I can bring a UF in games that use the Land or Water Major surface, on top of a terrain feature.

There is scope in that sentence for both interpretations I will admit. But in my view its not clear enough that the better of the two interpretations is what it is implying, and instead it is saying that it must be placed on top of a terrain feature.

Why would Spartan add in a paragraph specifically for Universal Fortifications, when a simple "Universal Fortifications use the rules for Land fortifications and Water Fortification in their respective theatres" or something like that. Nice and simple language, with no room for misinterpretations.

Look at the Land fortification paragraph. It says that they can only be deployed on the Land Major Surface, on a terrain feature. Same wording as the Universal Fortifications.

When simplified, that basically means you can deploy Land Fortifications in a Land based game, on top of a terrain feature.

Only the Water Fortifications has a distinction, in that it says it can only be placed on the Water Major surface, and may never be deployed on a terrain feature.

So I'm not reading too much into it. I'm reading further on and seeing a big difference between the fortification types, and unfortunately, the Universal forts follow the Land fort rules far more closely than the Water fort rules.

That's why I've emailed Spartan to try and get a definitive answer on this.

[Rabenschwarz]

I'm fairly certain that the intent was that you can deploy on the surface, but what's written doesn't follow. I'm trying to see if there's anything in any other sections that makes a difference. Work brain has kicked in, sigh.

Merlin, islands occupy the land surface, so you can place a tower on an island as the island is not impassable to armoured.

[Merlin]

But its impassable to naval. Its an "and/or" situation. If both conditions cannot be met, then it cannot be done.

[jupjupy]

From my reading, Merlin is correct by pure English. I'm 100% sure this ISNT intended, but he is right.

An island is a terrain feature atop the -Water- Major Surface, which is impassable to Naval. Hence, a Universal Fortification cannot be deployed upon it.

[Amiral X]

An island is a terrain feature atop the -Water- Major Surface, which is impassable to Naval. Hence, a Universal Fortification cannot be deployed upon it.

 

Not ok, as p107(pdf), it is stated : "Upon placing an Island, the Water Major Surface directly beneath its footprint changes to become the Land Major Surface"

[jupjupy]

Not ok, as p107(pdf), it is stated : "Upon placing an Island, the Water Major Surface directly beneath its footprint changes to become the Land Major Surface"

*scratch head*

Hm, must have missed that. This is seriously confusing sometimes.