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Leviathans How Big? When?!?

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If they are balanced well and arent NEEDED in a game to win against another Leviathan, I thing they will be a welcome addition.

Plus Neil did mention they were in the works. Sounds like they have them closer to release than not.

Overread - why do you say the rules need work?

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Its not like other companies don't have big stuff look at gw, its knight paladin/titan/really big tanks bananaza atm

 

 Ships for Xing like the blockade runner, that would be a corvette in dystopian wars size, it looks like you need two people to carry it :lol:

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Its not like other companies don't have big stuff look at gw, its knight paladin/titan/really big tanks bananaza atm

 

 Ships for Xing like the blockade runner, that would be a corvette in dystopian wars size, it looks like you need two people to carry it :lol:

For GW games, the big stuff creates all sorts of problems. Like tabling an opponent on turn one... (I've seen it done. How that even constitutes a 'game' is beyond me, but oh well). 

 

If Leviathans are indeed coming to FSA, then I would hope that as others have said, that they are fleet support buff machines and not giant Death Stars capable of wiping ships out left, right and centre. Again, I have become very cynical in my post 40K gaming days, and any news of new shiny big things usually fills me with dread. 

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I think its important to realise that big stuff tabling people on turn 1 isn't a problem with things being big; but a problem with poorly written and poorly balanced rules. Which to be fair is a problem with GW stuff no matter how big nor small it is. PP would be better to compare to in terms of balanced big things - if anything they underpowered their large stuff (esp for hordes) which is only now being addressed with their new MKIII

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Poor rules and poor balance don't help that situation, it's true. It doesn't help though having units that are essentially invulnerable and can wipe out large chunks of an army in one volley because they are that big and that powerful. That's why I despise the idea of stupidly big stuff in games. The power creep potential is over 9000. That and the large models are highly unwieldy on the tabletop as Pok mentioned earlier. Leviathans in a Epic like Firestorm game would be fine, really, that is where they belong. In FSA, though, well I'd have to say that the thought of having Leviathans in the game concerns me. 

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@DanSG-19: Why do you assume a Leviathan will be a really big Dreadnought (and won't be balanced) or even a combat ship? Heck, as Leviathans are only available in Grand Fleets, where people will likely have two Battleships or Dreadnought's anyway, Leviathans will probably have their own Scenarios, much like the System Wars ships and scenarios.

Leviathans will probably be the excuse people use to play Grand Fleet games.

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Bitter experience with other games has led to me becoming very cynical regarding big models. If Leviathans are implemented, I would hope that they are fleet C&C buff machines, not Death Stars. The cynic in me tells me to expect Death Stars. 

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There's no problem with leviathans having lots of guns. In theory its a weakness because you've got 1 single model with one single activation - sure it can do a lot of damage when it hits but its got to go up against multiple other smaller ships. With proper rules, balance and terrain on the map a leviathan shouldn't be any different to a dreadnought. 

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Anything can be balanced, the main problem I foresee with Leviathans is with their physical size.

 

FA models were already on the big side, from a practicality point of view, when the game was first released.

 

Since then they have grown bigger with every new release, and if a Leviathan is going to be a size step up from a Dreadnought these miniatures that really aren't there are going to hamper manoeuvring on the table top in an undesirable way.

 

 

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Fleet wide 'buffs' would have to handled with extreme caution! Let's say it gives EVERY squadron the target resolution effect. This would work differently for different squadrons and numbers of squadrons. Possibly..? Also the ships within range *" get this or that. Barring a scenario making a 'super blob' unhelpful why not just clump up and destroy/ resist whatever's thrown at it. I like the idea of extra Tac cards to play per turn or something.

If they generally had similiar DR to the Dreads and suffered some sort of incremented damage unless they had similiar CR's then that just makes them bigger points sinks and AD losers due to degradation.

A larger vessel ironically relies on certain parts still working to function just as a smaller one does. So 1/3 hull points loss (if they have considerably more than usual) could have an overall effect on shield efficiency, movement or SRS functionality. After all no critical effect prevents SRS launch. Shields don't degrade. Nor do indirects!

Along with a huge points cost they could be fine to play with game wise.

Models on the other hand. Yeah well, I'd rather go smaller scale models and have battle groups floating around! That's fleet battles for you!. I do like the idea of special scenarios for Leviathans. Like holding action where you have to slow it down but it doesn't matter if you lose ships. They were already expendable.

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I am hoping that if Leviathans are implemented, that they are mighty expensive to use (IE: they take up so many points that they cost as much as some small patrol fleets). 

 

The problem I see with big shinies, aside from them being far too big is that no-one will take them if they aren't "powerful" enough. No-one will buy them if the Leviathans are seen to be "weaker" than just taking equivalent points in other ships. So if you follow that to a logical conclusion for a company that wants people to buy into Leviathans, then they (the ships) have to be really tough and durable, and really, really powerful with either buffs or gunnery. Otherwise, people will look at them and go "what's the point, I can get this, that and those for the same points?" Points cost for Leviathans will also have to be carefully implemented, too cheap and we have problems, too much and again, why bother. Too cheap is the worst of the two ends of the spectrum. That way lies Riptide/Ghostkeel Spam, Wraith-Spam, Knight Spam and all the other wonderful frakking **** that made me quit 40K. 

 

On a more positive note, Spartan Games does appear to know what they are doing with adding things into FSA (they have a decent track record already). Leviathans will be a test though, because this Leviathan thing is probably the biggest ship type that has been added into the game so far. Hopefully they'll get it right, and prove my cynical side wrong so it has to eat a hat. As I said previously, I hate it when I'm proven right, so please Spartan, this once, make me look like a frakkin' idiot! 

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Another fortunate contrivance is that Firestorm players on the whole appear to be motivated by different things than the 40k pushed mindset.

There appears to be an interest in Fleet building regardless of some of the perceived strengths and weaknesses (esp weaknesses) of particular factions and specific units. There is still a ground roots feel of people buying models because they like them. This is a really good sign. Levuathan models would by definition be large, and slightly ridiculous to play with at this scale! but still as long as they provide a good game and as pointed out don't require a Leviathan of your own to defeat then it should turn out fine. I do reckon that causing stepped damage to a LV should result in BL loss or increase for owners and opponents respectively.

Make it a risk to even deploy such a limited asset. To have one of your perhaps just 3 sector command vessels damaged by enemy Battleships and cruisers and requiring space dock time should be a conflict adjusting factor!

There's actually opportunity for fun here, both to field and to play against

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What the game needs is definetely more big ships. I suggest making all of them leviathan sized, so any manouvering will be impossible due to table running out.

 

The dreadnoughts barely fit on the tabletop, the leviathans will kill the game completely.

Lol - I enjoyed that.

Why not make the leviathans pedal-car size so we can sit inside and make space-ship noises?

 

Seriously though - ANY new product is a good thing as long as it's balanced in game-play IMHO.  You don't have to play it if you don't wish....and surely any leviathan must be a huge point-trap.

Bring it on I say.....one in every flavour please.

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From a purely hobby perspective, I really relish the idea of Leviathans. What an amazing centerpiece for your fleet and game table! I almost don't care how the rules shake out (note: I said almost...)

 

I'm looking forward to seeing how these play out...

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If you don't like them-don't buy them. Seems pretty simple to me. If you feel 'cheated' because your opponent has one-don't play him. But just because YOU don't like them is no reason to dissuade (that's right I said it. And I looked it up) Spartan from making them for those of us who would like to see them.

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Don't like them don't play them is fine so long as they are balanced and thus taking them doesn't mean:

 

1) That you have to take one too to win

 

2) That you have to change all your fleets to counter one single potential threat.

 

The latter tends to be more the issue than the former in that the meta changes and everyone takes one and that means every counterarmy has to plan for that. It tends to limit builds and can mean some ships become unused because they can't counter the "big giant thing" so easily. The model is still balanced; its just heavily used and only some things can counter it effectivly.

 

 

This is why objective based games are big; because within reason they can get around that limitation somewhat. 

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If you don't like them-don't buy them. Seems pretty simple to me. If you feel 'cheated' because your opponent has one-don't play him. But just because YOU don't like them is no reason to dissuade (that's right I said it. And I looked it up) Spartan from making them for those of us who would like to see them.

Oh don't worry, I won't be getting a Leviathan at all. Also; that argument is the same one I've heard and seen used for just about all of the Lord of War and big gribbly spam I had to endure back in 40K. I did the 'if your opponent has too much big stuff, don't play them' thing... 

 

Ended up with no-one to play 40K with because they all wanted all Monster Mash all of the time so I quit and sold off my armies... Go figure. That's why my position on this is "oh gods, not again..." It doesn't help that I am a massively cynical git. 

 

Overread makes a some good points with the having to change your fleet to deal with Leviathans thing. There is a chance that Leviathans will become common, so fleets will evolve to tackle them. While that sounds good on paper, in reality it limits options to 'what can deal with Leviathans?' and 'do I have to have a Leviathan too just to have a chance of breaking even?' That is not healthy for any game system, regardless of who makes it. 

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So few games of 1205-2000 points are played, I wouldn't get caught up in the game breaking/ruling aspect.

Also, a Dreadnought runs around 300 points+. It will be safe to some 400-550 would not be out of line cost for a Leviathan.

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Warhammer 40 K is nowhere near a balance game. If you play it today, you must take an OP Battlemech or 3 if you want to have a chance to win.

I started playing FSA because it is much more balanced, and thus a better game. I am confident, however Leviathans are implimented, that you will not need one yourself in order to win.

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If anything its possible to have big things come with a negative aspect; gargantuan in Hordes are a prime example. For the cost of several regular warbeasts a player could take one bigger huge based warbeast. However that vast beast would only generate 1 beasts worth of fury per turn; and hordes warcasters need fury to cast their spells each turn. Suddenly taking that huge point-sink power-house comes with a cost. 

 

Objective based games are a great way to also counter this; mulitple objectives can mean that your huge leviathan can't get to them all; or tightly packed terrain might mean it can't reach destinations without taking a very round-about route that smaller ships won't suffer from. 

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That's what I'm hoping will happen, Ryjak. That when Leviathans get implemented that it will be done in a such a manner as to avoid the Monster Mash clusterfrak that currently rules in 40K. So far with Firestorm, balance hasn't been much of a problem, and I'm confident that the rules writers at Spartan Games know what they are doing (unlike those of Greedy Workshop, who seem to be held at gunpoint by middle management, or worse, have a worse collective IQ score than a turnip. Given the new 40K FAQ, it might be the latter...). 

 

Positive spin on things time; Leviathans would give my battle cruisers something interesting to shoot at. 

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I am confident that if you look at the way T1 heavy fleets tend to play, you'll wonder how something costed higher than a Dread can be useful. Dreads are already asking to be outactivated, and you'd have to pass CR of 14 (admittedly possible) with more than two shields before a significant variety of squads stop being able to crit it on occasion, and it'd need a DR of 10 (when it'll likely have 8 or 9 considering Dread stats) to start looking invulnerable to the inevitable plinking it will receive when outnumbered. The fact that we see a Self-Repairing 4 Shield Dr 7 CR 12 ship get destroyed on occassion, and that build coming in at 325+ points (depending on wing purchases)... Higher Dr and CR by even one point would push base cost into approaching if not passing 400... That's a third of your fleet at 1200. Most factions can get a cruiser squad for just shy of 200- That's more hull points, more diversity of function, more activations... As long as nothing goes into the DR and CR range where squads stop being able to hurt it at all.

 

I mean, right now the only "broken" ships in the game are ones that are bad and certain Battlestations, and even those, banned as they've been from most events, only really need a small points hike because a lack of mobility isn't as crippling to them as was probably believed when they were being statted. I woulda made the same mistake, to be honest- it seems like a huge detriment until you consider that they're still valid DtM, Flanking, and Grav Slingshot users and that most can fire past 20" in some non-trivial manner.

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Bear in mind too the 'thresholds' of damage in FSA menaing that having one big gun is often not much better. Rolling 8 dice at a DR4/CR6 ship averages one crit and rolling 10 dice and 12 dice and 14 dice also averages only a single crit.

 

The main issue comes in if they give it multiple large guns that share the same arc. E.g.: 2 banks of battleship sized guns per side - 2 12AD attacks star/port means they'd likely be destroying a cruiser per side per turn, plus whatever fore weapons and torps. These degrade poorly though.

 

Arguably seeing how ship design has gone a Sorylian Leviathan that follows the style of their Dreadnought but with even bigger guns combined with their Weapon Shielding could be a serious problem.

 

Having star/port 18s however is more likely to be dealing a single crit per side, per shot. Which is powerful, but not really beyond what you'd be seeing from cruiser squadrons or battleships anyway.

 

I'd say though that so long as they pay attention to the potential design pitfalls and don't go crazy with their rules they should be fine.

 

I know I'd buy a Sorylian and Directorate Leviathan (unless they're damned ugly models). It might take a while to justify making the purchases but I know I'd want them.

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