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Captain_Dan

Suggestions for a Sorylian Battleship

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Hi there!

 

I have been thinking about the Falx/Swordbreaker and IMO have found this ship specialized in flanking/shunting maneuvers, due to the reinforced port/starborard MAR and weapons distribution. If deployed with the rest of the fleet, the ship considerably loses firepower because she needs to close to the enemy, meaning a big chance of not getting benefit from the reinforced MAR (it all depends on activation order and positioning) and not bringing the broadsides to bear until it is (proably) damaged.  Therefore this ship most of the time needs to be flanking and it means it is a bad choice as the Admiral´s ship. It´s a specializd ship (like in other wargames specialized ships are the opposite to "jack'of'all'trades" ships and thus they need help from other models to cover their weaknesses or help the model in doing what it does best (Think about 40k eldar aspect warriors)

 

So I came out with some ideas for a sorylian BB in the future.

 

 It needs to be a ship for the admiral, that starts from the beginning with the rest of the fleet. I liked how the Sorylian carrier is made, but beinga carrier is not as tough as a BB, so the ship could have:

 

- Reinforced fore, or better CR value.

- Average-sized fixed fore guns (like the carrier), preferably Kinetics,  maybe supported by 7 AD fore torpedoes.

- some wing capacity to support the rest of the fleet and the BB herslelf. 2 (+2) wings. Because the Sorylian card "Peerless engineers" all ships benefit from having shuttles around bringing the possibiity to be fixed before the end of the turn, and also being boosted in many cases from the MAR "Experienced engineers". The expanded wing capacity helps the ship in bringing a mixture of interceptors and shuttles

- 7"(+1) MV (doesn´t need to be upgraded as fast as a Falx could be)

- The usual Sorylian stuff. (Powerfull scatter broadsides, Exp Eng, upgrades to weap shielding, maybe some upgrade for the fore guns and split fire for the broadsides, etc...)

- the BB could have elite crew too (as happens to other faction´s newer BBs). Option for the Ops center too maybe?

 

 

IMO (fluff wise) the scatter weaponry should not be hampered by enemy countermeasures. NOTE: in the old fluff the countermeasures (this is NOT the MAR) were the cause that  made a ship's (primary) weaponry to drop at RB 1. The peak usually is at RB 2 and increase the AD from RB 4 (the smallest) to RB3.

The AD distribution pattern for any scatter weapon could be like this:

RB 1: peak/max AD

RB 2: peak/max AD or maybe a bit less.

RB 3: considerable AD drop (mayb  half peak AD)

RB 4: negligible AD or none at all.

This already happens to most Sorylian models but not all and I thought about pointing it out ;)

Beam a kinetics would have different patterns offcourse

 

That's all hope it helped ^^

 

Dan

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don't see how this is all that different from the current BB except a few upgrades. It still seems a broadside based ship. If anything I think the idea of them deploying a Heavy BB would be interesting. Give it retractable plating for the broadsides while giving it a second shield. maybe give it the same guns but add in a second fore weapon and possibly a gunrack. would probably seem better off taking weapon setup off the warwolves.

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don't see how this is all that different from the current BB except a few upgrades. It still seems a broadside based ship. If anything I think the idea of them deploying a Heavy BB would be interesting. Give it retractable plating for the broadsides while giving it a second shield. maybe give it the same guns but add in a second fore weapon and possibly a gunrack. would probably seem better off taking weapon setup off the warwolves.

 

It's quite a bit different.

+ Elite Crew

+ Wings

+ Better CR / Reinforced Fore

+ Heavy Fore weapons

 

Your ideas that I like

 

+ Retractable Plating - I feel this is a VERY underused rule and it would suit the Sorylians down to a tee. Good idea CH.

+ Double Fore could be interesting. Double Hull would look ace too for a Sorylian Battleship.

 

Bad ideas

 

- Gun-Rack. Nope x 10. Broadsides all the way. Would most likely suit the model this way.

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I've suggested for quite a while the Sorylians basically need a big Gunship with some Wing capacity as their second Battleship.

 

Pretty much what every other race has been getting for a while with their Gen 2 Battleships so I wholly agree with you Ryjak. Would they REALLY be that narrow minded to not keep up with the pace and changing face of warfare? I think not...

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Based on fluff I don't think Sorylians would be keeping pace.  They can just bust out older ships they stopped using ships with tougher hulls that used more primitive primary weapons compared to the modern multi-warhead scatter ordinance they use currently.  They stopped using these ships because they were too slow and their weapons were too imprecise but with upgraded engines and targeting computers they'd see a new life,

 

that being said I think Captain Dan's design is a little too swiss army knife for a Sorylian ship and more importantly is a step towards making their fleet tactics more homogenized.  I love my lizards but I don't want them to start getting SRS and reinforced fore.  That's what allies are for,

 

A new Battleship should push the existing strengths and defend against weaknesses not remove them.  So instead of longer range fore weapons make Sorylian ships faster and tougher in general not just on their fore. Increase PD rather than SRS.

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So, you want a Praetorian?

 

I mean, don't get me wrong, it's a great ship that totally outclasses the Falx doing a role that Sory players desperately need (admiral bunker) and I'd love one too.  Have to agree with Frederic's objections about cookie-cutter ships though.

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A new Battleship should fill a very different role from the current Battleship. It has been pointed out, time and again, the Falx is great for Reserve Entry, but very lack-luster starting on the table.

If you don't want a new Battleship, then what is the smallest tweak you can make to the Falx to make it attractive starting on the table?

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@Fred - I think even with the Sorylians turgid approach to technology they wouldn't just go "hmm we're getting smashed by SRS, this could be due to the lack of our own, I know, let's ignore it". Massively high PD could help to an extent though, so that's fine. Just because they aren't high paced (like the Directorate who get everything) doesn't mean they can't adapt and progress. 

 

Let's have a look at WHY the Falx is bad starting on the table...(it's fantastic shunting in, can't deny that, but that's a big price to pay)

 

  • Average to low CR/DR
  • Low Shield Rating - hurts alongside low CR/DR. They are Terrans with less shields. Very easily to hurt on the way in, I've wasted many a Sorylian BB that's started on the table.
  • Very short ranged weaponry that is fairly hard to get the most out of it. Easily stifled by a good opponent who won't split his fleet in half.
  • Heavily reliant on terrain and positioning
  • 5 Points more base than any other Gen 1 BB.

Compared to many other factions Battleships that we've seen recently who've had all the bells and whistles it's no wonder the Falx is in a bad place currently and many Sorylian players wanting something with a bit gusto.

 

What would look fine/suit Sorylians IMO. Retractable Plating. An massively underused MAR that is very fun and offers toughness without increasing base stats at the cost of losing weaponry. Spartan could design some awesome looking models incorporating it too. Either that or simply a heavier armoured BB. CR7 DR11 would go a huge way towards helping. 1 SH base again with an option to upgrade.

Speed would be interesting to look at too. Currently the Falx topped out is a fast Battleship, however you forgo other vital hardpoints. This could be worked around by having base speed of 8" with possibly 1 Hardpoint for +1" MV at 5pts. 9" is very respectable for any Battleship IMO.

Weaponry I feel isn't in a hugely bad place given in the right circumstances you can "double" your output, admittedly that can be quite tough depending on who are you playing against. However I could see that if they had a 200 pt base cost ship, Broadsides could go up to 15AD with a slight buff to the Fore Fixed too, but not massive because they aren't about that strictly speaking. Torpedoes I'd like to see become Fore and P+S though taking after the Warwolf and Falx. Could be an interesting twist to the old bugger. Sadly though, with all of these changes, they still don't act as a great "on board" ship although I think you'd see more do that if the torpedoes were half decent. The biggest draw back towards it is simply Primary weapons and RB2. 16" is fairly tough to get within if someone wants to keep you out of that!

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If you don't want a new Battleship, then what is the smallest tweak you can make to the Falx to make it attractive starting on the table?

 

As i think, with Weapon Shielding is a Falx durable enought to reach the infight, only some fore torpedos would make it easier to weaken your targets. And with the new accompaniment rules we get some help firing at things in front of us.

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The Falx often seems maligned but in bitter experience I've found it to be one of the better Battleships overall. Hear me out. Weapon shielding, potential Mv 9! and 2sh taken as upgrades without losing out on essentials. Primaries are an issue for long range but with that extra mv having that 8-16" primary range broad siding can give you a knife fight edge against Beam targets. Counter intuitive but it works. Also don't think of just scatter as just a T3 splotter. Move for the gas clouds where you're enemy is sure to be skulking through. Again the coherence effect is 16" but it's eminently doable. Use your cruisers and frigates to distract whilst the BB manoeuvres to sweep through a flank.

That's just me though. I've had some very tough matchups with my Sorylians so I've had to think hard.

Now as for their second battleship.. The Sorylians dont necessarily seem to be a non SRS faction. Carrier (obvs.), Dread, BCs have them. So it's not unfeasible to have a SRS equipped BB. However the BCs do that nicely.

Kinetics seem to be the Sorylians 'other' thing and Fore Torpedoes.

Owing to some of the weird clumping design ideas that Spartan seems to follow (Warwolf- Harvester) it wouldn't surprise me that a 2nd Sorylian BB wouldn't push an existing design feature further. So a Mv9 BB for example with SRS. The weird factor has to be there though. A turret kinetic cannon! with some scatter P/S. Obviously the Kinetic will not be as strong as Dindrenzi BB ones. Or something more sane like increased scatter fore but weaker broadsides. Still fast and with the different MARs that second large capitals seem to have..

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From an OpFor point of view, the Sorylian BB as it is now is the one I fear the least. Especially if I'm playing my Dindrenzi fleet. It is simply too easy to make irrelevant when it is trying to close on a target from long range. When the damage and the Hazard Markers start to rack up, the Falx has severe problems. As a Shunt Bomb, I imagine the Falx would be lethal, luckily I haven't had to face that yet. 

 

For a new Sorylian BB, and this is coming from someone who doesn't play Sorylians, this is what I'd do: 

- Wings: give it the option to take an Interceptor screen and maybe some Support Shuttles. This is what the Terrans and Dindrenzi got with the Tyrant and the Praetorian. Three to four wings, either as a hard stat on the profile or as a Hard Point option. 

- Retractable Plating MAR (Broadsides): sacrifice early game offensive output for additional resilience and defence. Pretty simple concept here, and it would fit with the Sorylian background as pretty damn good engineers. 

- Alternative weapons layout: Tyrant was a radical departure in Terran BB design by becoming a mid-range brawler, as opposed to the Apollo with a focus in knife fighting. Praetorian had a weaker Railgun in exchange for two torpedo systems and a better Gun Rack. An alternative weapons layout isn't too far into the realms of impossibility here for a new Sorylian BB. They have experience with Kinetics, so a Railgun on the front wouldn't be too outlandish, and maybe it could be backed up with Fore only torpedoes with the option for Nuclear Torpedoes. Have the usual Scatter Broadsides, but maybe add a Gun Rack to it for cracking harder targets. 

 

Anyway, that's what I'd look into doing for a new Sorylian BB. 

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The Falx is a specialized ship. It has problems against certain fleets such as the Pathogen. If during a tournament you have to face that or a biohazard/boarding heavy fleet, "drives to max"closing or shunting in the middle of the enmy fleet become really bad options.

 

I also found another problem with the new accompainment: You need to at least upgrade it to +1" MV in order to keep up with the Flechette's half speed. :wacko: However, as a shunt bomb it could be quite a bit lethal with those ligth frigates.

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From an OpFor point of view, the Sorylian BB as it is now is the one I fear the least. Especially if I'm playing my Dindrenzi fleet. It is simply too easy to make irrelevant when it is trying to close on a target from long range. When the damage and the Hazard Markers start to rack up, the Falx has severe problems. As a Shunt Bomb, I imagine the Falx would be lethal, luckily I haven't had to face that yet. 

 

 

As a Sory player whose primary opponent locally plays Dinz, this is why my Falx doesn't get table time - like for months.  Unless you're playing a short scenario, by the time you've closed to effective range, you're down ~2 AD on weapons and at half the HP of the T1 that's beating the tar out of you, because the rest of your fleet had to blaze up the table to take care of those damnable frigates and cruisers.

 

I find myself often wishing I could put my entire fleet into reserve.

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For the points, the Falx sucks.  Like the maligned Dendrenzi Destroyers (who recently dropped from 70 to 55) the simple solution is to be made cheaper. 

 

Or.....

 

If the statline were to change, a simple tweak would be all that's needed.  These are not upgrades/hardpoints, but free statline changes, without changing points cost....)

 

Any two of the following would suffice, IMHO

 

* 3 WC

* 9 HP

* CR 11

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For the points, the Falx is excellent. The problem is that it's a terribad ship to deploy on-table in games bigger than maybe 700, which you need to do for your Admiral to have an impact. The only real option (outside of choices made because you have to make them...) is a Dread, which is massively points prohibitive. You're potentially better off with a Warwolf accompanied Carrier, something that can hang back and hash out some damage at range before closing with Bombers and the like, but that's going to start looking reaaaaal squishy past 1000. So, I would suggest a similarly statted BB with a bigger (kinetic)front gun, smaller side guns, and maybe 3 wings upgradable to 6. I'd also give it Ops Center just because it's a cool MAR and have a Bigger Batteries/PDB combo hardpoint to help it from being harassed by shunted smalls as it hangs back slightly.

Lately, in my theorycrafting, I've considered ships to be either Openers or Closers. Openers tend towards doing way more damage than they can take, and quickly- long range, high linked AD with small squads (ergo more AD per ship), high speed or longer range options, minelaying (contributing to the game after they've left the board), alternative methods to closing distance safely (cloaks, mostly, though Elusive, DT, or abnormal Shield pools for a class count)- if you see combinations of these traits, you're likely looking at a ship you can open with, attempting to destroy enemy assets that will threaten your Closers. Closers ate ships or squads that benefit disproportionately from advantages already gained- high squad sizes, for instance, leave you with less unlinked firepower but a linked AD pool more resistant to losses. Clear some of the high-damage threats early, and a large squad will be harder to take below effective strength.

The problem I see is that Sorylians are effectively all Closers. This isn't necessarily a bad thing -overall- and, if you share my theoretical views makes the fleet super interesting, BUT it does mean that you Admiral's options are rough. The Tyrant and Brood are great examples of ships that work as Closers but can sit on the board. The Brood has a cloak, so that's a no-brainer- it doesn't have to be vulnerable until it's already time to clean house. The Tyrant is a better example- its guns are fairly weak for its cost... BUT, if you can cripple an enemy fleet's offense, the Tyrant is tough enough to just dominate the battlefield once nothing has a halfway decent chance of hurting it- this shield-based toughness lets it start on-board, even if it'll only shine later, though. The Falx doesn't have that, though. Now, this may seem like a bit of a tangent, but I'm making a point.

The suggestions others have made create, effectively, another Closer. It's tough, has options to make it tougher until it's time to shine, and doesn't invalidate the Falx as a shunt threat. It's a good suggestion, really cohesive, and fits the fleet's major themes. BUT that's not the only option here- if the issue is that there's no good Admial's vessel that wants to start on-table, you could easily build a profile that is designed to have a big impact early on and less later when the majority of your fleet's options come into their own. In that sense, a mega-Warwolf is a sensible design, if you don't mind its primary attack vector looking a little Dindrenzi-like.

Not that it's the best option either but I think there needs to be a counterpoint to this discussion wherein a lot of people are describing a very particular ship and it would be very easy to fall into a hole where one convinces oneself that said idea is THE option that needs to be added, and not just a possible solution.

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Your Opener/Closer lens is an interesting way to look at a squadron and define its role. For example, your definition would probably call the Dindrenzi Cruiser an Opener: Mines, good long-range firepower, one RB with 8AD.

I tend towards using them as Closers though, because their defenses are so low... Statistically the lowest in the game. So they either Open if they can get dedicated SRS support (PD Boost) or Flank in on Turn 3.

I guess they sit on the fence, which is probably where Cruisers, Frigates, and Battleships want to sit.

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