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Amiral X

Savannah + Independance or Liberty + Saratoga ?

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Hi guys !

I have some trouble to build efficient lists with my FSA and my last games all turned out in painfull bloddbath for me :(

The Liberty looks pretty good compared to an independance but even if he stay alive for a full game he never manage to get its points back... So I'm looking for alternatives.

May be an Independance supported with the target painter of an Savannah could do the same job as a Liberty for less points :rolleyes:

So, I would like to know what are your experience with battleship+carrier list : would you prefer to field Independance+Savannah or Liberty+saragota in 800/1000 pts list ?

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The Liberty statwise is far more effective than the independence because of Sustained fire 3 being an absolute powerhouse MAR. Keep it in RB3-4 to sustain its effectiveness.

The Saratoga is my favourite carrier as it is a very cheap way to access carrier 9 and can be used to sheild units that are less so tough. Though I do like the Savannah the Saratoga is the value option, just keep it back unless you get desperate.

The independance for me is a poor mans Liberty. The only time Id take an Indy over a Liberty would be in a charging aggressive boarding list.

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The Liberty statwise is far more effective than the independence because of Sustained fire 3 being an absolute powerhouse MAR. Keep it in RB3-4 to sustain its effectiveness.

The Saratoga is my favourite carrier as it is a very cheap way to access carrier 9 and can be used to sheild units that are less so tough. Though I do like the Savannah the Saratoga is the value option, just keep it back unless you get desperate.

The independance for me is a poor mans Liberty. The only time Id take an Indy over a Liberty would be in a charging aggressive boarding list.

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The liberty is most likely thee worst heavy battleship compared to all the other ones, its two turrets on a hull.........then has to choose between rockets and shields, then that's it, just saying its rubbish gives the word rubbish a bad name :P

Ha, there's no better heavy battleship at RB4 and not very many come close at RB3. At RB4 you are firing 9AD with 3 rerolls generating an average of over 9.6 hits 50% of the time this rises to 12 hits at RB3. At these ranges you are causing a critical effect on nearly all large units before they have come anywhere near you. The Liberty requires you play to its strengths and actually use tactics. It is only rubbish in the wrong hands.

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Having a single good attack each turn, even at RB4 is not enough to make it for 230 points, and if he stays at 215 (without the shield) he is too fragile and his firepower shrink down with damage :(

The only good point is the commodore doctrine that allowed him to boost damage output...

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Having a single good attack each turn, even at RB4 is not enough to make it for 230 points, and if he stays at 215 (without the shield) he is too fragile and his firepower shrink down with damage :(

The only good point is the commodore doctrine that allowed him to boost damage output...

I see what your saying but feel my point is being missed. The Liberty can still perform in RB1 and 2 but as the FSA you should be better at long range shooting than your opponent. If you gear your list correctly the Liberty will just be one of many long range assets.

Pit the Liberty against another heavy battleship in a trial. At RB4 the Liberty is likely to pick off a point of damage against it, if not a critical hit. The other battleship, unless Antarctica, will usually do nothing. Next turn at RB3 the Liberty is now in its golden zone and with 12AD and 3 rerolls you will likely critical hit the other battleship. Even if you didnt take rockets which I usually do the other Battleship has likely lost 2-4 HP, when it fires back in RB3 its firepower is becoming irrelevant due to the damage incurred. Third turn now. Your Liberty should manoeuvre in such a way as to preserve it's distance in RB3 and continue to pepper it's target keeping the enemy Heavy Battleship irrelevant.

If your using the FSA to run in and get up close in RB1-2 as soon as possible the Liberty will look limp. The FSA is good in RB4 and sublime in RB3, most of their models in comparison with other forces are far superior in RB3. Don't forget Sustained Fire 3, it is a very powerful MAR and is what marks the Liberty in a totally different league to the Independence which is fairly under powered in comparison. You need to maintain distance until the enemy is weakened and their primary weapons depleted, do that and the Liberty will shine.

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I fight mostly a Prussian opponent and the Saratoga has lost me every game I've had it in due to prizing (125x2+75= 325 VP) and its board presence and associated SAS has never really felt worth the points. My Savannah though has always made the points and has nearly always survived to beat down on mid-table models with bombs and broadsides. At just 40 points more, its substantially more viable (Obscure to avoid most boarding/ more firepower/ same SAS). Unless I'm in a real big game, I don't take the Saratoga.

I haven't used the Liberty yet (Mostly the older Independence models I have kept me from investing in them) but my experience with the Enterprise Dreadnought with the same MAR has absolutely ruined targets of opportunity in RB3-4 and scared ships of its same category. I just float it on the back edge and bombard/harass the targets. I've never lost this model too, but it has taken a pounding.

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How would one use the Saratoga though? Sure its cheap for Carrier (9), but its big, slow, and has the armor values of a cruiser with none of the weapons to deter fast boarders. Unlike say the KoB Avenger, which has respectable ranged weapons to at least thin down the rushers, the Saratoga is pretty much a sitting duck.

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The model itself is only good for the inclusion of additional SAS in my belief and is the cheapest way to continue to use your ordinance SAS after their first use.

If you must use the model, guard it and place it in a location that will minimize its exposure to boarding (especially!) and incoming fire but not so far from your SAS that it can't be used to re-arm them. I'd say not on the back board edge, but certainly not inside the mid board.

You could also use it as an Aircraft deterrent with the Volley guns and AA value for your back board assets.

Ultimately for me though, it's not a desirable model because of the Strategic Value (75) mar rule. This model has cost me more games than it has ever helped win--although with the better SAS rules in the more modern version of the game it has become much more useful than it was.

I cannot recommend the Savannah Skyfortress more though; its only slightly more expensive, far more up-gunned, and serves perfectly as a mid-board model with the bombs and the durability to back that up. And mid-board is a perfect place to re-arm aircraft.

 

TL;DR: the Savannah does it better.

 

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The liberty is terribad, I'm not really sure how people can think otherwise. For 230 points your get one mediocre gunnery attack and that's it. Sure the re-rolls are nice but the actual gunnery numbers aren't good. Compare:

Liberty 18/15/12/9 with three re-rerolls (NOT the the same as three extra dice)

Monarch 24/18/14/5 piercing, redoubtable (poor rb4 shooting oh no... to bad rb4 is functionally pointless as you only get it once and even 9 dice can't hurt relevant targets)

Kaiser Karl 22/18/12/6 aren't these guys the close range faction? 

Kaiju- 23/20/14/8 incendiary, where is your God now? 

But lets assume the sustained three is three extra dice, that gives you 21/18/15/12, nice rb4 shooting, only a little better at 3 than the competition and on par at two. Hmm, this isn't looking so good, especially considering that your only relevant attack compared to

Monarch- -/10/8/6 torps fore and -/8/7/6 torps P/S 

Kaiser Karl- 10/9/8/- Speer 

kaiju- 8/9/11/- rockets, 10/9/-/- faster torps and a disruption node

Thats ignoring broadsides but, spoiler alert, the liberty's aren't great

Now let's compare how tough the ships are

Monarch- 6/10 with shield 3 and redoubtable main guns

Kaiser Karl- 6/11 with shield 2 and rugged 2

kaiju- 6/12 with shield 2

liberty- 7/10 with shield 3

Once damage gets factored in the liberty gets laughable, with one crit its guns go down to 10/8/6/4 each, even with re-rolls you just won't hit the high numbers, in contrast the kaiju has two weapon systems that are tertiary and it's main guns are so huge they can absorb some damage, the Brits are all redoubtable and tertiary and the Karl has its redoubtable Speer and superior boarding potential (plus it's far tougher so less likely to suffer damage). And how much does the liberty cost? Five points more than the Kaiser Karl (with the shield which is nearly mandatory), ten points more than the monarch and only five less than the kaiju with its shield. Hmm, no, the liberty is terrible.

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Rerolls are statistically equivalent to extra dice. At least when you have enough of a disparity between the number of dice you roll and the amount of rerolls you have.

Rolling three dice rerolling three dice is not equivalent to 6 dice. It's equivalent to 3 dice with better odds.

Rolling 12 dice with three rerolls gives almost identical odds to rolling 15 dice. This is because the probability of missing with less than 3 dice is extremely insignificant... It is not exactly the same of course because there is a possibility that all 15 dice would hit while the Liberty would still only hit with 12 dice. But that likelihood is so low it is largely worthless to worry about. Then with rolling 6's it doesn't really matter.

BUT you may worry about getting really big number of hits from rerolling compared to higher AD numbers.

In DW due to the exploding dice very seldomly are large numbers of hits from getting every dice to hit but rather its from rolling a disproportionate number of 6's.

Rerolling 3 dice means that a 12 AD hit actually has the same likelihood of rolling the same attacks with large hits than a 15 AD attack would get because you are rolling the same number of dice giving yourself the same number of chances to get 6's. If you roll 15 dice and get 4 6's. If you roll 12 dice and only get 3 6's but then roll the three rerolls then you can get your 4th 6.

The rerolls must be brought into the AD spread because it is directly tied to the number of hits you will be getting correlated almost exactly like extra dice.

 

In the Liberty's case when undamaged its RB 4 has the biggest chance for the rerolls to be unnecessary. Then when it takes damage the rerolls will be less effective than additional AD because you will still have 3 rerolls but potentially small pools of dice to reroll.

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The liberty looks dross on paper, but you have to fight it to laugh it off the table, but then gain the Republique fear nuthing:D

I've only come across it once in tournament, it performed as i expected, like the monarch its kinda so so when you compare it to the KK, kaiju and st malo.  

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A Liberty is a common occurance in my FSA fleets whenever I don't use an Enterprise. It is solid fire support but is not a stand out ship. It is simply the next step up the line of FSA design philosophy.
I get expected results from it. Typically that will be shooting 1 or two mediums in the first turn at either RB3 or 4 (6 dice with 3 rerolls is a fair bet against a cruiser) and probably the same on the next turn, depending on situation. I wouldn't take the Liberty to go hunting battleships, though it can do so with a bit of support. I see it as a very good vessel to bully medium squadrons outside their effective range.

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I had a  very bad oppinion about the liberty, but during my last 5 game with FSA I try to field the basic version with rocket and no shield. And very surprisingly it fight very well every time ! 
I used it in a activation-heavy list (with at least a savannah, and most of the time an additional saratoga) and keep it at the rear of my fleet and screened by a medium squadron. This  way he proves really efficient against Medium squadron (the 2 turrets with sustained fire 3 and punishing gunnery are really terrific against mediums) and do not receive too much fire in return.

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8 hours ago, Thamoz said:

A Liberty is a common occurance in my FSA fleets whenever I don't use an Enterprise. It is solid fire support but is not a stand out ship. It is simply the next step up the line of FSA design philosophy.
I get expected results from it. Typically that will be shooting 1 or two mediums in the first turn at either RB3 or 4 (6 dice with 3 rerolls is a fair bet against a cruiser) and probably the same on the next turn, depending on situation. I wouldn't take the Liberty to go hunting battleships, though it can do so with a bit of support. I see it as a very good vessel to bully medium squadrons outside their effective range.

Yes the liberty can bully mediums pretty well, but you know what does it better? Two battle cruisers for only 20 points more. More guns in the field and two rocket attacks, also two targets. 

Or better yet, 80 points more gets you a shielded enterprise, it bullies mediums and hunts larges with ease. 

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Should I buy a second Annapolis ? :rolleyes:

I agree, Annapolis is just a beast ! But back to the initial question : in a dreadless battle, do FSA have an acceptable front line naval large or is it better to forget completly large naval brawlers and only play support style large models ?

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11 hours ago, Amiral X said:

Should I buy a second Annapolis ? :rolleyes:

I agree, Annapolis is just a beast ! But back to the initial question : in a dreadless battle, do FSA have an acceptable front line naval large or is it better to forget completly large naval brawlers and only play support style large models ?

The new Mississippis are good, I especially like the mkii version, but the mki is also a beast. When you get your hands on them they should become your mainline larges, otherwise take carriers for your larges and Annapoli for your guns.

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With the MK1 Mississippi  I'd expect an adjusted Liberty to fit the linear American naval lineup from small to massive. Otherwise the Liberty will be the new Independence.

However, there might be a chance to differentiate the Liberty from the MK1 with other generators and/or slightly different defensive/offensive stats.:wub:

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