Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Ryjak

Aquans Sweep Adepticon!

Recommended Posts

I think that if everything had increased turn limit would have a very interesting effect, but I still think the multiarc nature of Aquan ships would put them ahead. But I reckon the difference would be less marked. From a gameplay standpoint though I think it might slow things up too much as the larger your TL and the less turns possible per movement, the more you need to plan and predict movement, which takes thinking and planning time to do so. However, those really need games tested for that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think forcing the dt and start them at 60 points would be good. There is at least one thing in every fleet (before light cruiser update) that can ignore that and 240 for a base squad is a lot. They are my favourite cruiser in the game and I think 200 is a bit cheap for them (i usually use +1 mn) 280 would be far too much for them though

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I personally don't think increasing the turn limits of everything in the game by one is an option for tweaking the Aquans. For one, the Dindrenzi would be seriously screwed (Thraex is TL1 now, TL2 on a frigate with the TL increase? That's as sluggish as big slow stupid heavy battleships are currently. TL4 on the Nausicaa? REALLY!?!), and quite a lot of Tier 1 units in damn near every fleet would end up having to buy -1TL just to stay relevant. 

 

The Aquans do have one major weakness, mainly with their Tier 1s and some Tier 2s. That weakness is, in general, Aquans are allergic to boarding. Unfortunately for boarding heavy factions, Aquans also have access to a metric arse-ton of SRS for added defence against boarding. Strangely enough I think that the much maligned Decimator Warheads MAR could be useful for sorting that issue out, in particular any Direct Weapons that can take Decimator (I think there are a few options for that out there, can't remember if it's Works Raptor, Directorate or one of the other Zenian factions that can get Decimator Beams at least). 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The +1 TL is something that can wait till qe get the turn on the spot in V3.

As far as what is wrong with Aquans well too much honestly. They are in a similar position as Realthozans where in planetfall. The problem is a little of everything.

They are fast, maneuverable, multi arc, all teir 1s are carriers, mines, energy transfer to act like the terrans turrets but bypassing double degrading, good DRs. What if anything can anyone list as a weakness other than boarding?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't even think their boarding defense is even that weak, they have high SRS so plenty to cover assaults and also plenty of space to take shuttles to replenish crew loss. Yeah ship Vs ship they are weak in that regard, but as a fleet, not so much. And if they want to do boarding themselves, assault shuttles and Terquai natural allies.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Making the cruisers as useless as they were in 1,5 isn't the answer. They're good, but they're not outrageous. Speed again is not the issue. The fact that the T1's are tougher than Sorylian and Terran equivalents, with as many shields, coupled with good guns, good torps, great mines and srs is the real issue. Strip away most of the shields, most of the high CP, and make it a choice between mines and SRS, and they're more sensible.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It sounded like the least controversial thing to do to muck about with the hard points (rather than going head long into altering stats across the entire game). If this was for instance, Wallethammer 40 Warhammers, this thread would have been shut down already because we'd have reached Peak Nerd Rage... 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Cost the hardpoints properly (they get too many "free" upgrades, particularly on the BB, which should also start with 0 wings and max at 3).

Remove their bonus DR (give it to the Sorylians), and limit/remove shields on ships with DT.

Change how mines work in general (my suggestion was in the 3.0 thread in the general forums; I think we can find a balance between the uselessness of v1 and the somewhat OP v2 drive-by's).

Tweak the secondary AD by basically subtracting 1 from all RB's.  For example, the BB prefers P/S.  Remove 1 AD from all the fore arcs.  The cruisers prefer Fore arc, -1 AD to P/S.  Basically, tone down the power of splitting your target squadron and getting two arcs into the same unit (but I don't think it needs to be eliminated).

Possibly -1AD even on the main arcs of the big T1 ships.  ET is so common that effectively they can throw the same AD to either side that the Dindrenzi can get out of FF.  Or make ET more expensive on the T1's.

Carrier and Heavy Carrier should be merged into something in between both (closer to the Hvy would be my preference, especially with the BB losing wings).

Nerf the Sulis.

 

Except for the Sulis, I view these as a bunch of small adjustments that would be plenty to draw them back to the pack without losing their flavor.  The Sulis (more accurately, Energy Locus) was an interesting idea that needs to go back to the drawing board.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd say the "problem" with Aquans is all the disadvantages they once had have been mitigated away, one small bonus at a time:

  • Shields: At least average and more than many factions
  • Difficult Target: On ships as big as the Heavy Carrier with 7/9 Defenses!
  • DR: Best in Class in so many ship classes
  • CR: Lots of Reinforced Fore for those ships that don't have access to DT
  • Energy Transfer: That makes their lower than average attacks actually average or better
  • Squadron Sizes: Larger than normal, giving good linked values, especially when stacked with ET

I especially think that some of the advantages are underpriced (I'm looking at you DT and ET).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd say the "problem" with Aquans is all the disadvantages they once had have been mitigated away, one small bonus at a time:

  • Shields: At least average and more than many factions
  • Difficult Target: On ships as big as the Heavy Carrier with 7/9 Defenses!
  • DR: Best in Class in so many ship classes
  • CR: Lots of Reinforced Fore for those ships that don't have access to DT
  • Energy Transfer: That makes their lower than average attacks actually average or better
  • Squadron Sizes: Larger than normal, giving good linked values, especially when stacked with ET

I especially think that some of the advantages are underpriced (I'm looking at you DT and ET).

 

Nail. Head ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I hardly ever use ET as even that 1 ad hurts my p/s shots on my cruisers too much and i don't even bother on my tier 3's for the same reason... i usually shoot in 3 arcs and so losing even 1 dice can hurt my chances of damaging something... but i would see the wisdom in two changes to ET, make it more expensive and allow the player to choose in the primary fire phase as it will speed up the game slightly and mitigate the 'power' of ET, i suppose ymmv though as i don't see it as a problem.

 

Many factions have better mines but have weakness' and so i understand, relthoza are more survivable then we are but they have to give up their protection to have reliable fire power where we do not, i think spartan adding more scatter to the game should help mitigate the DT spam of aquans and works raptor too and excluding our tier 1's we only have 1 shield and no access to shield projectors natively I use the power to the shields TAC to mitigate this though.

 

So for the most part i agree with Alextroy I don't like DT on our tier 1's thats a works raptor thing, leave it as thier thing, but i disagree with red dwarf as losing 1-2 AD per ship with no change to the points of ships is a huge change and forces me to invest in ET likely leading to outcry about how it should be free as its a requirement and i don't think will fix the problem. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's kind of early, I can't sleep and while I'd normally love to debate most of the points brought up here about how Aquans are OP I'll instead say that I believe most of the other factions should be brought up.

 

Most T1s should have access to some amount of mines. It seems silly that the bigger ships wouldn't have this weapon to combat swarms of lighter ships. Especially the factions with major fixed weapons.

 

Most Dreads I feel should have DR7 and a supplementary indirect weapon, at the very least a bank of torps in the most common arc.

 

Lots of ships could use a reevaluation of their upgrades. Possible increase/decrease in cost and increase/decrease in the value that is upgraded.

 

Lots of the Fixed Fore weapon arcs could be relaxed sansing railguns.

 

The Terrans should get a slight buff to AD or have some of their RB values swapped around. I feel like the weapon shielding mar has been overcompensated for.

 

Sorylians with their reliance on tough outer shells should totally have access to Retractable plating or an extra HP. As it is now a lot of ships I feel are overpriced with a low DR with nothing to compensate. 

 

Dindrenzi could have turrets instead of gunracks but only have RB1/2 range or a new MAR that acts like Weapon shielding except it only kicks in at half HP.

 

Relthoza should have more options for Mv boosts.  As it stands the Shunt ability could barely be considered effective because it negates every defensive bonus they have and highlights every weakness with questionable returns. A MAR that allowed them to launch SRS after shunting might compensate or new upgrade options for more of their ships to swap weapons for SRS space.

 

Besides a few outdated ships I feel like most Directorate vessels are pretty sweet. After Aquans they are probably the most well put together faction.

 

I could go on and on with my obnoxious opinions, but I think I'm gonna try and get some sleep.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The problem (in general, and this is based on my days playing 40 Warhammers) with bringing everyone else up to an (arguably) OP faction is 'codex creep'. It can and often has led to an arms race with each update to a particular faction. I wouldn't want that to potentially happen to FSA. Do Aquans need the full NerfBat treatment? Not really, they could do with some tweaks, but not a full blow from the NerfBat. The main problem I have with Aquans is also a problem I have with the Dindrenzi, and that's drive-by mining (something I'm going to post about elsewhere after having my eyes opened on the subject). Other than that, Aquans are powerful, but not the Eldar of FSA. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here is a different approach question - who do the aquans find hardest to play against ?

For me it's dindrenzi and directorate.

Directorate for boarding (yes I have lost a couple of almost full health battleships to them)

Dindrenzi firepower is overwhelming and one mistake can easily cost me a game plus they can drop even more mines than me so can really dampen my movement

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Playing Aquan fleets, I've had the most trouble from Works Raptor fleets.  Playing against Aquans, I had fair to middling success with Hawker against them, cyber down shields and engines and use of nukes.  If you can get past that DT and score a crit, nuke blast ignores target modifiers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.