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New ORBAT evaluations based on games ...

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Except that you can't use hit and run and take advantage of placed shots - pg 139 of the rulebook 'Models choosing to Shoot then Move may not take advantage of any Target Locks or Specialist Fire Orders such as Overwatch or Focused Fire'.

Dammit I thought that would be the case then went through it my head a few times and went no its ok you can target lock gives you the placed ahot bonus so all is fair! Serves me right for thinking inatead of reading.

In that case get rid go for kamikaze drops.

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Target lock bestows the Focusfire bonus (Placed) but is not in and of itself a Focusfire order, so yes you can use Targetlock and Hit and Run in the same activation.

Copy pasted directly from digital Rulebook:

A Squadron with the Hit and Run MAR may elect to Move and Shoot in their Activation as normal OR may choose to Shoot then Move in the Activation instead. Models in the Squadron may not move Flat Out if they choose to use this MAR. In addition, Models choosing to Shoot then Move may not take advantage of any Specialist Fire Orders such as Focused Fire.

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Target lock bestows the Focusfire bonus (Placed) but is not in and of itself a Focusfire order, so yes you can use Targetlock and Hit and Run in the same activation.

Copy pasted directly from digital Rulebook:

 

Thats not the quote from the digital rulebook.

 

Hit and Run

A Squadron with the Hit and Run MAR may elect to Move and Shoot in their Activation as normal OR may choose to Shoot then Move in the Activation instead. Models in the Squad- ron may not move Flat Out if they choose to use this MAR. In addition, Models choosing to Shoot then Move may not take advantage of any Target Locks or Specialist

Fire Orders such as Overwatch or Focused Fire

 
Seem pretty explicit, I guess that someone has got an older version of the file (not that I am aware of it changing since the upload).

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Had any more games guys?

 

I had a Dindrenzi vs Relthoza the other night and won as the Dindrenzi. A very close game though and came down to a few lucky rolls!!!

 

Spiders are still great, felt very powerful still but I don't think my opponents tactics went according to plan and I would have done stuff differently myself too.

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We had a 5k game directo vs dindrenzi, featuring one levi on each side. The dind lev sat next to his tertiary objective, on shot at 3+ until it's death, but I did not defend my flanks well enough, and flyers kill half my forces...

I tested an Assault Helix too, but rushing in no man's land is obviously not the way to play these guys :(
So I got crushed so hard because of my misplays that I don't think there is much useful data to take from that game

One more game wednesday in 5k, and one 8k in a week or two, I'll give more details then (if the games are relevant) =)

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Since you asked, played two more test games.  One Relthoza vs. Aquans, one Relthoza vs. Sorylians.  Got massacred by Aquans, won against Sorylians.  Aquan mobility gives them too many chances to hit unopposed to counter barring massive amounts of elevated terrain.  Sorylians have range, but played relatively poorly and I was able to exploit cover to close.  Didn't enjoy either game really, and probably will only rarely be using Relthoza from here on out.  Got a big game coming up this Sunday (8k Directorate (mine) and 8k Dindrezi vs. 6k Sorylian, 6k Aquan, 4k Terran).  Separate players for each force, so not the normal thing, but should be fun.

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Played my first V6 game last weekend with 2.3k battle of my Terrans vs Relthoza. With the revisions to the Relth winning the recon roll is key, my opponent used his logistics points to ensure that he had his choice of recon moves and almost all of units were nearly half way across the board before the first activation. The Relth definitely play bit differently then they did with their previous stats but they certainly haven't been hamstrung, at the end of the first turn I was sure I was looking down the barrel of a oncoming crushing defeat with the Relth 13 zero hour points ahead. However the dice and wildly lucky scatter dice turned my way and I got off an unzeroed artillery shot that shouldn't have hit anything but it scattered just right and dealt 2 damage to his new assault helix big bug. This put him in range to be take down by a lucky shot by my single Loki. The first infantry spire dropped in had the misfortune to scatter over the 2 remaining Himedal's and right into the Leviathan. Even with the dice rolling my way turn 2 my buddy managed to pretty much mop the floor with me killing every single unit apart from an uninjured Odin and 2 unhappy Himedal's. I got a few lucky hits in and managed to knock him down to a tie at -4 to -4 zero hour. Although in all fairness he had a lot of units left and would have completely wiped my force completely if we had another turn to go. 

 

I found the Relth to be more interesting now with greater movement and tactical deployment, it made the match feel much more dynamic than the previous release, they really haven't lost their teeth at all with the reduced range. We do play on boards with fair amounts of terrain so maybe we just never noticed the extra range that much. Another thing that got me was how point for point, the Relth definitely come out ahead with their lower unit costs. We were setting up our forces and I kept looking at my units and going where are the rest of you?

 

I thoroughly enjoyed the minor revisions the Terrans received in V6. Although I stand by my previous comments that the Loki is very under powered both in durability and fire power for its cost, mine made 1 lucky attack then poof. 

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I played my first game as Dindrenzis vs Relthoza, 3400pts. I can't comment on the changes made to the Dinz, but the Spiders definitely felt toned down. My opponent was using them for the first time since the new ORBATS and he actually enjoyed the new style, despite the nerfs and the fact that he lost. The game was definitely closer and more dynamic that any we've played before. 

 

So far, I'm very happy with the new stats and can't wait V2. 

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Having played only one game so far with the new relthoza I can't make any definitive comments on them being under of over powered. They definitely are different but I found myself enjoying their new play style quite a bit. I felt more like a predator trying to sneak in for the kill rather than just invisible gun emplacements.

As Ponders noted his incredibly lucky artillery strike and a poor scatter roll for one of my spires cost me the win. However, the game was fun and the relthoza felt more dynamic than they were previously in my opinion. I am working on getting a battle report posted, just haven't had the time yet.

Observations, the assault helix walker is a massive meat shield/damage sink. Even with taking two damage from artillery I think he absorbed 3 other attacks before being destroyed by the Loki. The Visith felt slightly underpowered in my opinion but that may have just been poor rolls on my part. The Salamis are still great in my opinion as is the Vaxiss. The recon move did make a big difference giving me a lot of board control very early in the game. I'm very much looking forward to our next game.

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For all the "I enjoyed the new playstyle" people...you do realize that you could have played with the exact same options in the old ORBAT, don't you?  It isn't like Predator is a new thing or anything.  Now it's the *only* thing, but it was always an option.  Also, I don't think the Relthoza are necessarily cheaper than other options with the new ORBAT.  I did a quick and dirty comparison between a Relthoza full core helix (full everything, 2x support walkers, infantry with pods, Predator on everything) and a full Terran core (full everything, infantry with officer+3 teams and transport, 2x shield tanks, AA tank squad).  Relthoza core option is 180 points more and has 2 extra infantry squads.  Assuming you want equal point values, cutting an infantry squad from them puts it to -15 points for Relthoza.  This is also disregarding the fact that since you sank so many points into Predator, you really *need* to get the Recon move, so you need at least 4 Command Points to bid with.  Taking that into account means either cutting a support walker or another unit from the core.  Point costs in this case are largely the same between the two factions, with the Terrans having more people per unit and Relthoza having tougher people per unit.  Seems fair to me.  You could certainly argue that you could cut various things from each force to change that differential around, but in a max loudout configuration it's pretty much balanced.  Relthoza will need to either cut units from their core to make a point value, or Terrans will end up with ~7 Command Points they can use to deny Recon, set up Overwatch, etc.

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In my opinion part of the reason people are enjoying the Rleth changes is that the game play feels more dynamic because the force is required to be more dynamic to remain competitive. Yes the Relth could play dynamically with the old stats but from the general tone from the forums, people didn't, and who can blame them. With the old stats the Rleth had the option to play dynamically or with many of the units could sit at LR and making placed shots with cloaked snipers, and tactically long range sniping was a better bet as allot of their opponents had trouble beating their high DR's at LR with cloak.  Its not the Relth players were doing things wrong they just had a much better tactical options than many other forces. This seems fairly evident in the war log with Relth reigning champs at 59% win ratio (at least for those reported on the battle log). More battles with the V6 stats will show if they are still the force to beat or if they fall to the sad terran and directorate w/r in the 30's% they have been adjusted down a bit to much. As Tansalus mentioned the current play style feels like a better fit for their lore and was in general just more fun.  

 

Additionally with the old stats Recon was allot less appealing to sink points into as you had the range to engage without predator and thus it just added to the imbalance having lower cost units.   

 

For our games we have always had a fair amount of terrain so we haven't had the start zone placed shot issues that it sounds like allot of people face against the longer range factions.  Another difference from allot of battle reports we tend to run half core's with a mix of the other helixes as we tend not to have time for larger 4-6K battles and enjoy the variety and challenge of fielding and facing forces with different compositions.

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Just played a rematch and we both played the same lists. This time the Relthoza won, but it was a very close game. Spiders are still plenty strong, they just aren't stupidly powerfull anymore. 

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Had a game of 5k Terrans vs Dinzi. Some terrible dice rolling meant I lost an Odin and Tyr very quickly.

Terran Core is still very strong imo only thing I find that the Terrans aee quite TV heavy especially vs Dinzi and RSN where lots of units dont give up much tv for the amoubt of firepower you have to put into them.

But my main issue is the Assault Helix. Its useless I have tried running it at the enemy and they get blownup quickly. Both being Elevated means is very tricky to hide them and use them as a counter attack unit and they are not cheap and become easy targets for enemy to pick off. Having a threat range of 15" mean that you never get to use them.

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Had a game of 5k Terrans vs Dinzi. Some terrible dice rolling meant I lost an Odin and Tyr very quickly.

Terran Core is still very strong imo only thing I find that the Terrans aee quite TV heavy especially vs Dinzi and RSN where lots of units dont give up much tv for the amoubt of firepower you have to put into them.

But my main issue is the Assault Helix. Its useless I have tried running it at the enemy and they get blownup quickly. Both being Elevated means is very tricky to hide them and use them as a counter attack unit and they are not cheap and become easy targets for enemy to pick off. Having a threat range of 15" mean that you never get to use them.

 

Have you tried using terrain?  All buildings occupy the Elevated height level, so if you have a relatively decent amount of buildings on the table it really shouldn't be that difficult to hide them from at least some enemy fire, also activating a helix at the right time is critical, especially with the high profile priority targets such as Leviathans and Assault helices.

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Have you tried using terrain? All buildings occupy the Elevated height level, so if you have a relatively decent amount of buildings on the table it really shouldn't be that difficult to hide them from at least some enemy fire, also activating a helix at the right time is critical, especially with the high profile priority targets such as Leviathans and Assault helices.

Yeah we had a fair few buildings but they are the same size as tanks so have counted them as armoured.

I hate comparing like for like but cannot understand why the Hodr is Elevated.

Archangel = Armored

Iapeus = Armored

I am ok with the Loki being Elevated aa they are pretty huge.

But they desperately need a purpose and they tools to do it at least reasonably effectively.

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Have you tried using terrain?  All buildings occupy the Elevated height level, so if you have a relatively decent amount of buildings on the table it really shouldn't be that difficult to hide them from at least some enemy fire, also activating a helix at the right time is critical, especially with the high profile priority targets such as Leviathans and Assault helices.

 

I have fallen into this trap as well.

 

Page 100 - 101 shows Buildings in the Elevated class alongside the Leviathans, however on page 77 in the terrain descriptions it states:

 

All Buildings with a Single Storey are NOT considered Elevated.

 

One of the painful parts of the rules I feel at the moment, although to be fair planetfall is always interesting when you agree these things in advance.

 

My advice for anyone playing planetfall is to try and use different height levels of terrain, if everything only counts as armoured heigh (i.e one storey buildings) then Leviathans (especially long range ones) rule supreme, and things like the Terran assault helix will get subbed. 

 

I have even debated introducing some smoke stack buildings that block LoS to flyers (given the smoke / smog / chemicals in the air).

 

Yeah we had a fair few buildings but they are the same size as tanks so have counted them as armoured.

I hate comparing like for like but cannot understand why the Hodr is Elevated.

Archangel = Armored

Iapeus = Armored

I am ok with the Loki being Elevated aa they are pretty huge.

But they desperately need a purpose and they tools to do it at least reasonably effectively.

 

As above (you replied before I finished lol).. buildings aren't armourer or elevated they are both as defined by their number of storeys. 

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Yeah just the models we have at the mo are more a kin to armoured. Still doesn't change the fact the Hodrs are stupidly elevated when the archangle which is also hovered, cloaked and has inner plating is armoured.

 

 

Worth testing your games out with something that's elevated, not saying that it might not seem consistent, but if you don't use any elevated terrain you will have a very different experience to someone that does. 

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The Hodr may have slipped through the net. Whilst no updates are planned for the near future, this will be taken on board.

 

Regarding Terrain, a mixture of Elevated and Armoured is best. We usually use at least 2-3 Elevated and 4-6 Armoured pieces. All are generally quite big area wise - from 4"x4" upwards.

 

In our many games we've always found less but bigger pieces of terrain is best. Why? It creates areas of LOS denial but helps ALL races equally. So shoot and scoot armies can use it, but also slow ponderous armies can use it for cover moving up. You have some areas for Leviathans to hide but not too much to make them impossible to hit.

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We did a 3210 point game between Directorate and Relthoza this week in my group. Here are some of my findings:

 

1. Tournament terrain placement is fairly spotty, we had two contiguous table segments devoid of any terrain at all.

 

IMG_20160420_190749579_zpsbr9zpvrz.jpg

 

2. The firepower leviathan is as awesome as the heavy support helix sucks:

 

My opponent had the more populated terrain side. His primary was placed in the naked desert you see in the lower left of the image above. To guard it, I placed the scorpitron and his light walkers out in the open,  gambling that cloak and range would keep him in the game. They shared that table segment with the interceptor battlesuit as well.

 

Placed shots from the leviathan are grand -- however, not exactly imbalanced as the Directorate player took the heavy support helix and basically played the same game. He melted one of my Salamas squads, I put 2 points of damage on his heavy support tank. 

 

Later, the leviathan got a Mastery of the Skies activation with his recon flyers in EF and took them out of the sky. 

 

I think my opponent was intimidated by the big beautiful beast there. He could have done a number on it, but concentrated instead on my squadrons of mediums and lights(with great success).

 

If I had used the heavy support helix instead, he would have melted their faces off pretty much unanswered -- they would have been useless as objective guards and a complete waste of points. I could have tried to use them on the other side and swapped with the core helix, but...

 

3. The Directorate will punch you in the face:

 

On the east side of the map, things went differently. My opponent placed his almost full core helix there. Two heavies, two squads of mediums, two APCs, two cyber tanks, and one itty bitty squad of lights to hold his tertiary. Facing them I had one heavy walker, two medium walker squads, one minimum strength light squad and the ground attack leviathan. 

 

I played it cautious, sending my lights to recon out to the secondary objective and moving my other units to get cover with a slow advance. Most of my dice that turn were zeroing in artillery markers and failing to damage enemy tanks. The heavy support helix would have been unable to capture the secondary or zero the markers in. Firing at him would have meant leaving cover, and my Talamis would have been smoked straight out. The entire time, I had no effective approach to my primary; I was defensive and trying to draw him into artillery zones...

 

4. Artillery is amazing, when you roll well: 

 

I placed my artillery markers in movement lanes and sorta choke points, and that placement did not disappoint. A zeroed-in strike saved the east side of the table with a 16 point whammy that caught his medium tanks, putting 2 wounds on each squadron. That was total dice luck, but the effectiveness makes it well worth the gamble as long as I am taking anti-air anyway. I got very lucky there -- had I not devastated his medium squads, I would have lost my entire core helix the following turn(he had already wiped out my lights and half my mediums). That saved my bacon x1.

 

5. There was no good time to drop the infantry:

 

I placed the drop points so I could attempt to take my primary with the spire. As it turned out, his position was almost unassailable in that quadrant except  by air power. Any ground approach would have taken it in the face with brutal face-punching ability. There was a chance I could have dropped my spire and assaulted one of his heavy tanks, but win or lose things would Not Have Gone Well for my little crawlers after that, and I would have lost all the scoring units from that side of the map.

 

6. Intimidating leviathans behind the curtain:

 

I am very lucky my opponent opted to shoot for smaller targets. Had he leaned on either of my leviathans hard, he could have dispatched them in one turn. Had he nuked my scorpion, I would have had nothing to stop his advance to his primary. If he had concentrated on my ground attack flier, I would have had no means to attempt my primary with any reasonable expectation of success. I am certain his decision to leave the leviathans be saved my bacon x2.

 

 

7. The dice want what the dice want:

 

I had some amazing rolls that match, and my opponent had some real stinkers, especially on his shield pools. If we had rolled within a standard deviation of average, it would have been a pretty brutal face stomping on some bugs. As it was, I swung the game in my direction  on our last turn(due to store closing) with some spectacular rolls. Dice saved my bacon x3.

 

 

 

Additionally, my opponent was rolling too few dice on most of his shield rolls during the game. That could have made a very potent difference as well. The majority of my kinetic fire at him was at LR, so those extra dice could have added up significantly. 

 

I basically think a rematch is in order, though I suspect that the honorable arachnoids are going to eat turf hard without the map assisting us.

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Great read their DSW. 

I think that the amount of firepower to down your leviathan might have left a lot of your other models free and unhindered thought for an extra turn or two. So while they could have nabbed the Levi, you would have had a lot more to deal with them with. 

 

On your Sky drop points, I would consider going for the Secondaries, thats my plan. Spires in to disembark the troops (behind the building, and then hop in the following turn). Going for the Primary is a tactic, and one that Sky drop armies can do, but it is by no means the only way to do it (look at Terrans without GA, they just hit the Secondaries & their Tertiary).

 

Also for your games on terrain its much faster and more enjoyable to setup a battlefiled how you want rather than using the Tournament placement. No tournament I can think of wants to lose gaming time by making the players setup the terrain, so I would expect most just have it setup before the game starts. Personally I would try a rematch that way rather than just using the Tournament placement (unless you are practising for tournament that will do that).

 

Its also worth considering that Logistic points to help you win the board edge are always nice too! 

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