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thyphs

PLC Experimental Incendiaries

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Ok this popped up today with my PLC vs Presedentes French

 

Used the commodore ability on my Triglav - says all attacks that place raging fire tokens has them doubled

 

so i rolled a crit on a cherbourg and place 2 markers for the bombard, I roll a 3 on the crit table and get 3 more fires, does that double???  I thought yes as techincally the attack has triggered raging fires so can 1 attack cause 8 fires??

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I don't see why not. It says all attacks that place raging fire tokens, the crit effect means the attack has placed raging fires. I mean, if you manage to get that crit on the one activation you declared Experimental Incendiaries, you probably deserve it.

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I agree with Sebenko. Seems logical to me and heck I wouldn't mind it lighting me up should my opponent be so fortuitous.

 

I can almost hear the counter-argument now:

"The raging fires are doubled from the attack, the critical effect is not an attack, but the result of one..." That kinda voodoo and such!

 

Hopefully we can have one of the Spartan Bosses give us the thumbs up! I got a friend playing Polish that would be just tickled by getting to incinerate even more than he already does.

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I was initially going to be contrary on this one but no, I would vote the crit fires get doubled as well.  We already have MAR's (Pinpoint) that allow you to modify critical roll results so tying those rolls to a weapon effect is established.

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I'd disagree with Vel's argument. Pinpoint can change the crit effect, not the potency of the effect. I would say that the PLC ability is done prior to the actual rolling of the crit effect as Mandzark pointed out in his post above. It's not clear either way but that's how I would rule it

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You would say. But an attack that places raging fire tokens via the raging fire critical table result still places raging fire tokens, and would be affected.

 

There is no provision in the rulebook for discriminating between tokens placed by crits and tokens placed by ammunition types.

 

We can even break this down. A squadron makes a gunnery attack. That attack reaches the CR of the target, inflicting a critical hit. The result is Raging Fire and the D3 result is 2. The model loses 1AP, takes 2HP damage, and takes 2 Raging Fire markers. The attack clearly placed 2 raging fire markers. So it would be affected by Experimental Incendiaries, since "All attacks with this squadron that place raging fire tokens this activation place double the number of tokens."

 

I don't see how this is even a question.

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You might be right Seb, you might not be. Thyphs and his opponent clearly have had discussion about this and had differing opinions, so there must be more than one way of looking at it. Unless you wrote the rulebook/commodore ability I would say that yours is just an opinion also until someone provides a diffinitive answer we don't know either way.

I think is someone from Spartan does look at this I'd also be interested to know how this interacted with mar's for fuel reserves and inventive scientist re-rolls of 1. Would they be doubled too if the commodore ability was in use?

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The exact wording is as follows (bold emphesis mine):

 

"All attacks with this squadron that place raging fire tokens this activation place double the number of tokens."

 

So the question becomes: does an attack that causes a Raging Fire critical, place raging fire tokens? If the answer is yes, then it falls within the boundary of this ability.

 

Typical case of RAW vs. RAI.

 

If the intent was that only incediary attacks caused double tokens the wording would have been:

"All incendiary attacks with this squadron place double the number of raging fire tokens this turn."

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When you look at how flamethrower and heavy flamethrower rules are written it can't be based around incendiary attacks. PLC have access to all 3 and flamethrower is incendiary+ with heavy flamethrower incendiary++. That's perhaps why it's been left a little vague and not worded incendiary attacks.

You may be right, I don't know. You also may not be right. That's why this discussion is being had

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When you look at how flamethrower and heavy flamethrower rules are written it can't be based around incendiary attacks. PLC have access to all 3 and flamethrower is incendiary+ with heavy flamethrower incendiary++. That's perhaps why it's been left a little vague and not worded incendiary attacks.

You may be right, I don't know. You also may not be right. That's why this discussion is being had

 

Actually if you look very carefully at the flamethrower rules, it states that flamethrowers use incendiary munitions.

For heavy flamethrowers it states: "...receives ONE Raging Fire Game Marker due to its Incendiary Munitions and an additional one..."

 

So all Polish flamethrowers use the incendiary munitions rule as well as the Polish primary weapons. In other words, my analysis stands.

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I know it says that. But if it said only the incendiary part doubles only one would ever double. If you read my post you would see I described it as incendiary + for the effects, or incendiary ++ for heavy flamethrowers. If you only ever double the incendiary part it would only ever add 1 to the total, instead of potentially 3 for heavy flamethrowers.

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A crit effect isn't an attack.

The flaming markers from the crit effect are the result of rolling it.

It's not at attack...

That analysis stands too!

Honestly you can beat this horse to death, but clarity and a simple explanation of ruling/intent is needed from some kinda boss. I could honestly care less either way, I like most of you just want to play with the rules as intended and designed by the great folks that put them together.

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On a related note to the thread topic, do flamethrower crits stack in the same way as regular crits?

 

For example, if, using regular gunnery, I roll 18 hits against something with a CR of 6; that would be three crits, so six damage and three rolls on the crit table. If I was to do that with with heavy flamers, would that then do three separate instances of the 'crit' effect (so deal three damage, three raging fires plus three D3 rolls), or only count as one 'crit'?

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It only counts as one crit.  That is the trade-off you accept for being able to combine the weapons instead of linking them.  You can get huge AD pools and practically guarantee a crit at the chance of wasting them.

 

Note that one of the flame weaponry bullet points states they do not inflict critical hits as normal but use a different mechanic.  That mechanic states "equals or exceeds critical rating".  If you exceed the target number by 1 or 100 it does not matter. 

 

The same type of wording is used for several other effects.  A tesla attack can get net you two crits but the effect for Lethal Strike will happen once.

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It only counts as one crit.  That is the trade-off you accept for being able to combine the weapons instead of linking them.  You can get huge AD pools and practically guarantee a crit at the chance of wasting them.

 

Note that one of the flame weaponry bullet points states they do not inflict critical hits as normal but use a different mechanic.  That mechanic states "equals or exceeds critical rating".  If you exceed the target number by 1 or 100 it does not matter. 

 

The same type of wording is used for several other effects.  A tesla attack can get net you two crits but the effect for Lethal Strike will happen once.

 

That's how I read it as well.

 

I do not know if that is what the designers intended, but that's how it's worded IMO.

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