Jump to content
S.Neil

Discussion Thread for the new Relthoza Model Stats

Recommended Posts

Since I've already shared my thoughts in another thread...

Heheheheheh. Okay, so, initial thoughts- The light cruisers are a little pillowfisted, but for that cost who cares? They have nice torps, and the pocket shunt matrix is a nice touch- that 10 AD FF can be pretty nasty if you play their jumps right and start hunting for rear arc crits.

The gunships are odd, but not too shabby. Its nice to see another Corrosive Torps entry. With Precision Strike options and Beams(!), RB1 rear-arcing for Targetted Strikes may be a big thing. That DT is also nasty...

So I could see myself using either ship. I think if I needed cheap T2 options/didn't want to invest in T2, I would rather grab a pair of Defence Plats with No FSD removed and have 50 points an enemy might burn shots on and that I could shunt out at a moment's notice, or that I could hide frigates under for a later usage of FSD calculators. Or to hide Light Frigates under to huck Torps all game, haha. Still, both are nice options, both add unique elements to the fleet.

As for critiques, unless I was trying to build a super bare-bones squadron that still maybe had some staying power, I would never use a combined-arms squadron. The weapon arcs and mobility line up well enough, but unless I get something extra out of the attack I'd rather have something else. Remember, I see the Relthozan playstyle as using your defences and weapons to create a differential, and then exploiting that differential accross a small number of turns late game. If I don't place a Corrosive or put down some other effect, it's not really a good option. Defensively, the mixed squad won't prosper late-game either. The other critique is... Comparing +1 Shunt Matrix for 5 points, and Stealth for FREE... I would never take the one extra shunt die.

As for the Frigates... Very nice. I would definately take a squad of them. 200 pointts for a squad of Widows and a squad of... Er... Erigones, jeeze that's a bit of a mouthfull, haha. In any case, that's a decent investment. They are the profile I'm most excited to use.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The name of the game here is disruption, speed and keeping your foe off guard for the Virulence and Iramon.  

 

I could see two squadrons of Erigones with a cloaked squadron of Ichneumon in the backfield bubbling stealth to be a bit of a nightmare.  But a shunt counter attack could mess up their day.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Virulence could be a brutal sniper squadron in the right hands, although I think the main guns need to be 7/7/7/- or 6/8/7/- to class it as a proper gunship (kinetic would also be nice, as beams feel thoroughly wrong for relthoza, and kinetic would fit better with the planetfall weapons), and it'd be nice to have the option for Ambush.

The only thing that's good about the Iramon is the cost - the rest is garbage, don't know why anyone would take it unless they're planning to spam tier 1 and 3 and need to pay a tier 2 tax. In any other situation you're better off taking a squadron of Drones. These need a little something else.

Erigone is solid, nothing much to say about it really, although Relthoza do now have a Tier 3 objective camper (yay!).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Moved from another thread:

 

 

Thank you Spartan for posting the FA statistics. I am thrilled.

So I thought I'd present some thoughts on the Relthoza ships.

 

Virulence Class Gunship
At first glance I believe the points cost is appropriate, maybe a touch high but I haven't played them yet. I expect them to be used as a long distance attack squadron with their fixed fore BEAMS (/cheer). Assuming theyre long range, you can keep them uncloaked and rely on stealth so you can shoot at max AD. I like that depending on your style, you can pick up a higher shunt matrix and forgo the stealth. This dovetails in with the torpedos in that they're more powerful at close range.

 

I am sad that the beams don't get corrosive but you can't have it all. They are subject to a double crit, but if played right and staying in the aft of the enemy thats not as big of an issue. Though mines will still wreck their day.

 

All in all, I like it. I'll have to see how they play.

 

Iramon Class Light Cruiser
For Relthoza, 10' mv cruiser is good. Most ships in the Relthoza arsenal are pretty slow. This will help bringing in their fixed fore guns. I see that as usual the damage dice for range band 3 drops off SIGNIFICANTLY as is usual for the race. However with the ability to shunt you should be able to stay in RB2 most of the time. Of course if you shunt too short or far, you won't be able to use the fixed fore weapons.

The ships can take corrosive on their primaries, which is nice.

 

Erigone class Light Frigate
The movement is nice at 12 inches. It's also 3 DR/5 CR, so it's a little more durable. It's also got firing arcs where you shoot multiple targets.

 

All in all, I like the ships. One thing that Relthoza suffered from in the past is fixed fore with broadsides. Combined with the slowness of the ships it was unusual to line up shots with the fixed fore and the broadsides. These new ships have fixed fore and a torpedo arc that overlap, meaning they have a better chance to have two shots.

 

Also, with more shunting ability with these ships relthoza might be a little more survivable staying in area's where they won't get shot up as bad. In the past with the slow movement, once you dropped cloak, if you didn't gut the other fleet immediately, your pants were down.

 

Thoughts?
Worms

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sometimes cost is all you need, if you can do something with the cheap unit. I don't know how many times I've written lists where I really would rather have had just one more cheap activation- Venoms had been a go-to because of that, now there's a real option, you know? It doesn't hurt that it's still got a nice stack of Torps and can still link up 10 AD, as well as the fact that a squad has the defenses and hull of three standard cruisers at almost half the cost.

 

I'm a little disappointed that we didn't get something in the high-power range that the Champion, Harpoon, and Velites fall into. I think we really lack in power-play squadrons right now; arguably, this is a weakness that Relthoza have always had, and have dealt with and quit frankly been good in spite of, but seeing so many other big hitters in this release is a little distressing when you compare the Relthoza stuff.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As much as the other forces gained a heavy hitter you got something in the opposite direction with the Virulence.  The damage is moderate but the survivability is very high with cloaking, stealth systems, difficult target and a shunt matrix.  Played well you might not be losing these guys to often offering a very strong denial squadron.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Virulence could be a brutal sniper squadron in the right hands, although I think the main guns need to be 7/7/7/- or 6/8/7/- to class it as a proper gunship (kinetic would also be nice, as beams feel thoroughly wrong for relthoza, and kinetic would fit better with the planetfall weapons), and it'd be nice to have the option for Ambush.

The only thing that's good about the Iramon is the cost - the rest is garbage, don't know why anyone would take it unless they're planning to spam tier 1 and 3 and need to pay a tier 2 tax. In any other situation you're better off taking a squadron of Drones. These need a little something else.

Erigone is solid, nothing much to say about it really, although Relthoza do now have a Tier 3 objective camper (yay!).

 

I wanted kinetics, but Beams are totally fine.  I agree it needs a bit more of a bump to bring it to proper gunship level, but compare the points to the other full fledged gunships and you see a bargain.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

We already have some pretty legit denial squadrons, though, with the Never-Has-To-Uncloak trio that was the Invasion Box. I think the real key with them is the Beams being the same across applicable range bands. It makes Shunt Matrixing (totally a word) a lot more consistent in damage output. I'm not saying I dislike these ships, though, they are great, just that they are far less obviously so and require far more finesse than their counterparts.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Right it is not a blunt hammer in the same way as the Harpoon and Velites are.  But the Harpoon needs to pick a few items for it to work out how it might want to play and the Velites has a max of 20AD in a 4" band but is going to get kicked around over the few few turn of the game.

 

The Virulence might be more of a slow and steady throughout the game.  Try it out Hive and I would love to know what you find out.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

just an outsiders perspective here, but 1AP is maybe a little light on your gunship when it needs to get close to use its torpedoes at best. is vunerable to boarding. possibly add an extra AP to just make it a bit less fragile to assaulters. 

 

Otherwise they all look blooming awesome. our Relthoza players are drooling all over their many, many legs at our club :) 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Gunship:

Pros:

Long range firepower is a really nice addition, and this ship looks like it's designed to be able to stay at long range for a reasonable amount of time.



Cons:

It would be hard to compare the gunships to other gunships, as the whole squad puts out as much AD as one Directorate gunship, and they pale in comparison of firepower, but the points do show... on individual ships. On squadron level the point for damage is... Let's say damage probably isn't their intended role (they behave more like destroyers should)...


They want to stay out of the fight, and pour their firepower on the enemy, but were I the enemy I'd just... Ignore them... They are able to crit a cruiser or plink a T1 (and remember, they don't get corrosive on the beam weapons) if they themselves are not too damaged. But... So can any other T2, potentially one turn later (while it is true, that Cruisers are more fragile up close), and they bring more utility to the table (with mines and wings... sadly I'm not really experienced with Venoms, I just don't really see their place in my fleets, so they guard the inside of my drawers mostly).


My fear is something like this: they won't disrupt too hardly anything, they will be just ignored, while taking up a T2 slot, that could have been Heavy cruisers, Ba'Kash Cruisers (they *do* disrupt things. they have the target marker on their heads while they are able to take punishment and even return it). And a lower price doesn't makes up for not fulfilling their (intended) role.


With these AD levels if they lose a few HP (to stray torpedoes) they are significantly less of a threat, or if they lose a ship, they might as well go home. If they are out of coherency (shunt matrix does that sometimes), they aren't really useful anymore. If they have to shunt, they are easily missing with their fore (fixed) beams (probably this is the reason why the Bane's weaponry is fore, not fore (fixed)). If I want to disrupt, I would like them to be scary. 12 AD is... average-ish, and that doesn't scare (or disrupt), maybe inconveniences. As flamebeast said 7/7/7/- doesn't do much more - still crits a T2 or plinks a T1, but it dances around the edge of "Will it be a crit on that T1? Mayyyybe a double crit on the T2? I better deal with it." zone. So it has to be assigned resources, to weaken the foe elsewhere.


The 6/8/7/- would be a double edged sword though, it would make the gunship try to get inside the territory which would be much more dangerous for it (difficult target only goes so far with a DR4 and no shields), but it would be much more interesting on the tabletop. They may get more expensive in the process, but they fulfill their purpose. On the other hand, if their price will compare to the heavy cruisers... Probably I'd still find them appealing with the proper AD levels.


The other obvious comparison would be the shunt cruiser, which is a cheaper rear arc hopper, with better arcs, more AD in the ideal rangeband, wings, corrosive options. It also disrupts.


As for the upgrades: I don't really see why would I ever take anything other than stealth systems, without it the ship is really fragile, and to even pay for not having it is not really a thing I'll be looking for.


As it stands, I'm not a fan of the gunship to be honest. This ship just doesn't do enough gun. :) But gentleman! Please do correct me if I'm wrong, i'd really be happy to be wrong on this one!


Light Cruisers:

I'll really have to try these. They are really budget, and that can be a real advantage in some fleets (mainly in the fleet construction phase), but I'm not yet sure what would I want to *do* with these once they are on the field... Probably plink mediums with corrosive? (And would I want to do that? Why would I want to do that? I'm quite unsure, but I'll find out soon!)



Upgrades: probably a little bit similar to the gunship, but as this ship wants to be closer, it is not necessarily that


Light Frigate:


Pros:

With these arcs it is really easy to reliably hit two ships in one activation if the enemy gets close, but I really wouldn't want that, would I? Those torpedoes are nice far from the threat range of the nasties


Cons: Fragility for the price maybe (or too expensive compared to the other frigates)? I don't think they want to be near anything really, so with torpedoes are the main threat to these guys they should be ok. On the other hand systems network probably won't help you there, and you still pay for it...  Another one I'd like to try soon :)

Edit: grammar (too late for me to write coherently, sorry about that)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yeah, the more I look at the Virulence the more "meh" it seems. Banes are faster, have better firepower, better defenses and can do something other than plink. 6/6/6/- just isn't enough for an FF on a Shunt ship. If it was arc I could see it working, but even then I'd be more comfortable with 7/7/7/- or some combination that averages to 7 - it would give us a proper long-range threat which we REALLY lack. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

How does the Bane have better Defenses when the Virulence has Difficult Target stock?

Not sure what Flamebeast's reasoning is, but to me the Bane has slightly better defenses because it can stay further away and is less likely to be shot at in general.

Oh, and with the Banes you get 30 extra points to spend on "more immediate threats" for the enemy to shoot at instead of the Banes. :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just checked again, Banes are 55pts stock and Virulences are 65pts stock.

And yes, the Torp values are similar at range, but the Bane can be much further away because of the Shunt Matrix 8 when it wants to close. And the Bane doesn't have to shunt in straight lines to use its gun.

Normally, minor differences like this wouldn't matter a ton, but these are basically the same ship with some mild alterations. So the differences are all there is to focus on. And since the Bane does the job a bit better, from slightly further away, for a few points less, I give the victory to the Bane.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have always been an advocate of ships with a shunt matrix to have non fixed weapon arcs.


 


I have not been a fan of Banes as Shunt Matrix needs to be changed.  I never use it its to unreliable.  


 


 


A non fixed fore arc would make the virulent a good vessel.  


 


I like the Frigates and the Light cruisers are nice and cheap.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Okay, so. Defensively, the Virulence is a 4/6 DT Cloak Stealth with 3 PD, the Bane is a 4/6 Cloak Stealth with 4 PD. By a small but measurable margin, the Virulence is tougher. 

 

The Virulence can easily line up shots with the FF, in fact the Shunt Matrix makes it way easy as you can set the direction you jump facing and jump straight towards your target (or back from it, or onto the other side of it!). Shunt 3 means you're never jumping more than 18" and never less than 3", that's a 15" window and with Rel Command Distance of 8" the bell curve three dice create is going to heavily favor you landing with at least one ship somewhere in the middle closing the potential Command gap. In addition, the Bane's AD fluctuates based on where it ends up. As long as the shots line up, the Virulence has the same AD anywhere in a 30" range with its main guns. That's huge. Banes only have 16" to work with before their AD massively drops off. Virulence has consistently better torpedoes, that can be Corrosive, and a bonus to the Beams if they get up close and personal. I'm not sure Precision Strike would ever come up because people generally recognize that the penalty is worse than the potential gains, but with the ability to jump behind and rear-arc a target the Virulence is kind of the prime ship to attempt it.

 

So I'm gonna say that while the FF with the Shunt Matrix is funky, it creates interesting interactions AND is objectively not terrible, even if you are gambling on it somewhat.

 

I'm also gonna go ahead and say that aside from the 5 AP and the potential to take wings (though I'm not sure I would if I were planning to jump them, not that they need to jump to be effective) the Virulence is straight up better for its cost, maybe not at every task, but if I were going in blind and had to pick one or the other I would take the Virulence.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That is a very good summation and explanation HIve.

 

They are better than Banes.  I personally just do not use shunt matrix.  It is a wasted MAR for me.  

 

That said I am more likely to use it with the Virulence as an escape method.

 

It is set up to be disruptive and this does play to my style.  I am going to play it some more and experiment to see what it does with a few different fleet builds.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The bungie chord assault approach with the Virulence is a good way to use them.  With a 7" MV, they can modestly live in a 30-20" bracket by using 2-3 dice to jump backwards into the area where Stealth Systems kicks.  They need to fight with Cloak down but anyone trying to shoot a Difficult Target with the benifit of Stealth Systems will find things to be pretty darn tricky.

 

Also, on the poor maligned banes.  Never forget the boarding abilties.  My Banes often manage to capture or destroy one or two smalls ships just by proximitiy.  The squadron enjoy Cloak T1, and T2 they strike mid activation and put some Corrosion before T3, I am swinging onto a soft target and then nabbing with some boarding strikes while doing something else.   The squadron is amazingly flexible, even if there top end damage potential is rather tame.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have a few questions to better understand these new options...

 

Do you think the mixed squadron is workable?
Does the gunship add enough toughness (or firepower? :unsure: ) to justify the additional cost?

 

More importantly how would you use the new ships?

Would you try to use the gunships as destroyers (use the shunt matrix to try to stay away where stealth is effective), or would you try to close in and use the beam coherency effect in RB1 (maybe in the vulnerable arc)?

If (and this is a big if ) spartan decided to up the firepower on the Virulence from the lighter side of a destroyer to the lighter side of a gunship, would it make Banes obsolete, or does corrosive, better boarding better arcs, better shunt matrix (and maybe wings) still leave them a place in fleets to be able to be an option worth considering (on their own, not just as carrier escorts)?

 

What would you target with the light cruisers? Mop up damaged T2? Jump over the enemy and try to get in rear shots? Are they a better choice for these than standard cruisers considering the 42%(!) discount for the loss of 2 potential firing arcs, the loss of AD(~38%, 38% and 17%) and mines? (Forgive me if my numbers are off, and please correct me!)

 

Will the small frigates be able to stay in their optimal range all game (considering the AD drop is quite significant from 48" at 14AD to 36" at 10 AD? Would they be better in reserves, or deployed (behind blocking terrain probably)?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I will answer those questions in reverse.

The Erigone is a great T1, starter.  It has no shortage of targets and if it can stay away from threats to its existence it can safetly whittle away at rival Tier 3 forces all game or fininish off bleeding Tier 2 ships.  Their long term survival from a combination of distance and indirect fire is key here.  A squadron of Erigones should never want for a target to shoot at, its balancing the risk reward of what you decided to ultimately be your target.  They work great again when they can be drawn up to the mid field for the late game when threats to them are neutralized and they can start wearing down targets a bit quicker with direct fire weapons.  One of there best attributes is how reluctantly they give up Blog to the enemy and the dedication required to remove x6 DR3/CR5 models from the table has value.  It can be quite easy to escape with one to deny the battle log killing blow reward and from a strategic side that type of assistance will help you win games.

 

The Light Cruiser is a discount little tank.  Hibernating in cloak with Stealth, the ship even with reduced PD is a pain to harm early game and of course there are alot more important targets early on deserving of the attention.  I have limited experiences with it myself to be honest, but in terms of ability you get what you pay for.  A ship that is easily able to get to where it needs to be to shoot its weapons suffering little damage, but ultimately has restricted impact on its own.  The squadron is also suitably a pain to remove from the table.

 

The Gunship is a tricky beast.  Its a gunship not because its high AD is a signature property, but the novelty and application of its gun.  It can serve in two distinct forms, one as a pseudo destroyer, projecting an impressive 12AD direct with 8AD torps at 30" for only 180pts.  At that distance between Difficult Target and Stealth Systems, it can put pressure on early and enjoy relative comfort without having to resort to cloaking systems.  The Shunt Matrix has to be used for what is described earlier as 'bungie chord' assaults.  Either diving in close to unleash potential twin 12AD weapon strikes (one with RB1 beams) against a single target, great for diving in and wiping out a cruiser in one fells swoop.  The ship has AMAZING initative for that.  Again, I do have overall very limited experience with it myself though but from playing the ship and using its strengths, it performed remarkably well.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...


×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.