Jump to content
S.Neil

Discussion Thread for the new Sorylian Collective Stats

Recommended Posts

agreed. just take the -1 turn limit MAR and drive right through :) 

 

my main concern is with the gunship. bearing in mind we moan about the Sorylian destroyer, this has similar weaponry and a shorter kinetic range. sure it is cheap but if it wants to be a brawler style gunship instead of the Warwolf, it needs more broadside punch and maybe a higher pip on the CR. could tag on some more points for it though and would still be a viable alternative to the Warwolf.

 

To end on a positive, i think those light frigates are going to be flippin' amazing!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Have you considered pairing these new gunships with the carrier?

They aren't Warwolves but they are very economical in terms of what you pay for.

The Accompaniment line reads:

0-2 Bombard Class Gunships

Bombards and Warwolves are the same Stat block. While the Harvester is clearly not.

Accompaniments must stay by name, not by classification for balance/imbalance reasons.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am messing around with lists to see how the new models fit in to lists.

Falx w/shield +4 ap, second assault and weapon shielding.

3 Harvester gunships

3 falcatas +1 kopis

5 Reapers /w packhunters

(20pts left over either escort on BB or weapon shielding on H.cruiser)

I think the harvesters would work well shadowing another squad. I see them using there slightly better range to tag team with the falcatas or Falx, but slightly behind. They would also work well as a flanker using the slightly better range to threaten anything within 34" of board edge. The Harvesters remain my third choice of the TF ships. It is a solid yet vanilla addition to the fleet. It feels more like a support ship rather than a frontline combatant.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The cruisers are ok, cheap ships but with the real risk of giving your opponent easy battlelog. Three ships HP3 giving you as much BL as four HP4?
The frigates are definitely useable and will hold their own against the other two T3s (which are demonstrably good)

The gunships are definitely third rate, while its nice to have long range starting on the board for cheap they dont have the AD to be truly long range threats. Given the general awesomeness of current soryl and veydreth gunships these are going to be a tough sell.

 

I also think that the presence of the light cruisers is going to invite boarding. Given how battlelog works for captured ships those light cruisers are swell targets.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

With decimators, the Harvester is a support gun for boarding fleets.  Soften the enemy and drop disorder on their carrier turn 2.  Follow in with assault blitz flechettes.  Now their SRS went back, their escorts aren't contributing PD, and you make the enemy pick up and re-roll their PD successes on the only major boarding defense most carriers have.  For 285pts you just prized or crippled a T1 before it really entered the fight.  Alternatively, smack a destroyer squad with disorder so you can go take some risks elsewhere.  Or spend a little more on the assault cruiser squad and go throw 15 AD twice.  I think my Katars just jumped a couple places in the painting queue. 

 

It's not as versatile as a cruiser + heavy cruiser squad at ~300pts, but used in tandem with other weapons it's a really good tool for breaking through SRS screens and disrupting major enemy threats. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think your misusing the light cruisers if they get close enough to be boarded. As fast and agile as they are they should be be shooting and moving to new targets and they're cheap enough you shunt them out as soon as 1 is eliminated since you could afford to bring an extra squadron of them.

They aren't a replacement to the Falcata they're more like a half step between a reaper and a Falcata I think.

The gunship is obviously a cheap long range option. I'd be interested in playing a squad of them alongside destroyers, Hastas, and a carrier w/ bombard accompaniments against an opponent who is used to Lizrads always fighting at short range.

Use corvettes to set up firing lanes using scout and you have a very different lizard game plan from turn 1.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So who is ready to try ambushing an enemy using the Agile MAR to help navigate a asteroid field?  Do you have your eye on a tier 2 ship to capture with your Flechettes?

 

Anyone planning on getting a test game in soon, if so what are you going to try out?  Please remember to take notes as we would like feedback.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think your misusing the light cruisers if they get close enough to be boarded. As fast and agile as they are they should be be shooting and moving to new targets and they're cheap enough you shunt them out as soon as 1 is eliminated since you could afford to bring an extra squadron of them.

 

 

It isnt about how you use them its about how your enemy will respond to them. If you are playing those models a good opponent will be ready for the opportunity and creating situations where its difficult to avoid a potential boarding. You will have to be careful in how you use them in order to minimise risk.

 

Also shunting them out early makes them viable targets for a turn. Especially for... boarding.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That depends on where they initiate the shunt and how much terrain there is they've got the Mv and agility to hide behind or in something other ships might be hesitant to dive through.

Like all balanced ships, especially cheap ones they have a weakness but it's not crippling or glaring. Just an option to watch for.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm starting to latch on to your thinking that one of the major Sorylian attributes is a limited BL exposure Captain Frederic.  With that in mind, the light cruisers feel out of place.  I know they've got theoretically equivalent defensive stats to a base skyhammer thanks to the 1Sh, but I think a bump to squad size 2-4 would put them much more in line with the character of other lizard ships, and make the squad in general less of a BL pinata at CR6, 9HP for a net swing of 5BL.  Total firepower at larger squad size might be a bit much though, 190pts for 17AD in three arcs screaming across the table fast as most frigates feels like too much.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I get that.  Just spit-balling ideas for character's sake.  The Din thread went so far as to suggest a complete redesign of the Velites to a Cataphract-lite.  I think that sort of open ended theory crafting to fill an entirely different roster role is worthwhile, even if the physical limitations of distribution have already been set. 

Also, as those of us who bought TF two player boxes have already noted, we need these cruisers and their upgrade parts available as individual sales sooner rather than later.

 

After all, I've only got one Harvester in the mail, and those look fun.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd say the Lucern's current role is fringe skirmisher. It can either zip around the Furball the main Sorylian force attracts or draw enemy ships to outer edges the main force can then hit with broadsides. It's definitely a fienting ship though strike quickly then FSE. with only 3HP they are still BL efficient since that rounds down to a single BL pt if they are eliminated.

4 of them would be better but it doesn't seem that was possible.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

At first I was surprised of seeing the light cruisers coming in squadrons of three. Squadrons of four sseemed the logical grouping or (giving they something in-between frigates and cruisers) a squadrons of five.

 

IMO the statt make the light cruiser the king of escalating engagement moving around your "safe" edge of the board, almost ignoring terrain closer to the edges. I would take them at patrol fleet level, for that scenario.  They also seem good in "defend the waypoints" or "capture the station" as the objective is likely to be placed near a piece of scenery to cover one flank... and these little guys love to "fly" past a planetoid or asteroid field. I don´t like mixing them with a gunship as the gunship will slow them down and make you have issues with the range bands (kinetics, primaries). They PD rating  is very low. Despite the shield, the ship's main defence is to hide behind terrain and torpedoes are quite a bit likely to be the bane of the squadron.

 

The frigates, on the other hand, look very good. You get scatter weapons to fight those elusives, but the big deal is hidding and shooting trhough gas clouds... and you are getting a very good light ship cheaper than than plumbata/reaper . the odd thing is the gunrack (it seems  some Sorylian engineers had a talk with their veydreth allies regarding light ships lol)

 

The gunships seem good for that price. At least they can deffend themselves when flanked. Quite good for small games, and they can have some "surprises" awaiting for the enemy.

 

Generally speaking these ships are good for small games, they leave you more "room" for your bigger ships. In fact, in larger games they can be used to "fill" the compulsory slot and let you invest in allied dreadnoughts/battleships or go frigate/corvette heavy (seriously, Sorylians need a SERIOUS T1 :ph34r: )

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree the gunship and the cruisers don't synergize well but I think it would be interesting to see a squadron consisting of a bombard leading a squad of these new gunships (like a heavy cruiser leading standard cruisers)

I think you're right about Lucerns working well in escalating engagement.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I like where you're trying to go with the mixed gunship squad, but I think you'd end up rounding off the edges of both parties to lose the flavor of each.  Spending a lot more points for a fairly ineffective torpedo on its lonesome and slowing down the squad turn limit would be a tough sell to me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sometimes options exist to fill an economical space.

A mixed Kopis/Falcata squadron loses speed from a pure cruiser Squadron and lacks the raw offense if a pure heavy cruiser squadron but sometimes it's a good squad for a specific fleet build.

Specifically in this case I just think the gunships synergize better than a gunship in a cruiser squad.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thoughts after a few days to absorb info, build some lists, and play some small skirmishes (not full battles):

 

Flechette:

 

I LOVE this ship.  I'm fine with the idea of a super-small and agile Sorylian ship that doesn't have room for broadsides.  And AGILE!  My favorite almost never used MAR--VERY happy to see it showing up on a core faction.  It doesn't obsolete other Sorylian smalls either, just provides a really nice option. It might be a touch cheap (it's probably between 15 and 20, imo), and since the Corsair's Cutthroat is 20 I'd probably price this the same.

 

Suggestions:  None

 

Lucern:

 

One tweak and I'm actually pretty happy with this ship, though apparently I see them differently than others.  To me they are not a shunt ship--they are better at starting on the board and hiding behind asteroids (or could be).  In my group we usually alternate placing terrain, so I can get asteroids on the board.  They provide cover to this ship and allow it to use Agile to burst through at the right moment.  I'd rather shunt Skyhammers than these guys.  My only concern is PD.  Like all the new cruisers they are low, and adding the Harvester screws up the Agile factor.  The Mv hardpoint doesn't impress me, since I'll take the TL for Agile every time.

 

Comparing to other new/inexpensive cruisers, they seem to be on the low end except for Agile.  Worst defenses in that it's standard 4/6 DR/CR, no cloak or DT, and the Perseus can sector it's shields.  Firepower is average to good (if you buy Pack Hunters).

 

Suggestions: Give them 3 PD standard to deal with torps.  Otherwise they'll be indirect fired to death before they can use Agile (the Iramon's chewed them to bits with no problem in a test skirmish, and Directorate Drones did a number on them too).

 

Harvester:

 

Cheap gunships.  Hmm.  Well, they performed nicely in a single skirmish.  I had more problems fitting them into actual lists.  The issue for me is that if I want to pretend to be Dindrenzi, I would take Hasta's, Kestros, and Warwolfs.  If I want to get stuck in and go broadside heavy, I'm not taking gunships.  They strike me as a generalist in a fleet of specialists, if that makes any sense.  Best use I see is a Kestros replacement in a battle where I don't want the deployment trick of Ambush and expect a fast opponent to close past RB3 quickly, or want to bring Decimator (and Decimator on a non-torp is great).  The problem with replacing a Kestros, again, is that they also take the Gunship slot.   I do see some specific scenario uses.  No synergy with the Lucern's whatsoever (I'm fine with that).

 

Comparing to other ships is difficult.  Cheapest gunship by far, but seem to be of appropriate power as well.  In terms of cruisers in that price range they also seem appropriate.

 

Suggestions:  Should they maybe be classed as a Heavy Cruiser rather than a Gunship?  They won't be competing with the excellent Warwolfs in that case.  Would be weird to have a Hvy Cruiser in that price point though (cheaper than it's own faction regular cruisers!).  Stat wise I have no real issues, though I think 10pts for a shield on an otherwise cheap medium is high.  Hermes started life like that and got recosted down to 5 as I recall, and that seems the better way to go here as well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Played two games today with this list:

995 pts

me:

Carrier w. gunship accompaniment 110pt + 90pt + 60pt upgrades = 260

- 10pt +1Sh, 5pt +2WC, 5pt +1Mv, 30pt 6xbomber, 10pt 2xinterceptor

 

2 squads Light cruiser @ 2x (3x40pt + 10pt upgrades) = 300

- 5pt +2Mv, 5pt Pack Hunter

 

1 squad Harvester gunship = 3x 50pt + 15pt upgrades = 195

-10pt +1Sh, 5pt Decimator

 

2 squads Light frigates 2x (6x 15pt + 5pt upgrades) = 240

- 5pt Assault blitz

 

First game border clash vs Dins.  He ran 2x standard frigates, 1x new unit of frigates, 2x new cruisers, 1x destroyers, 1x battle station.  End result was a wipe for Sorylians.  Each of us ended up deploying with significant gap at center of table.  I left gunships, cruisers and frigates in reserve.  Sory carrier faced off against one unit of each type of frigates on left flank, Din battlestation, destroyers, and one unit of cruisers deployed to right flank to my unit of light cruisers and light frigates.  Light cruisers were able to use terrain to evade fire and use high movement to charge past the new Velites units to avoid taking too much fire, light frigates move to center of table to assist against Din frigates.  Turn 2, light cruisers and light frigates arrive for Sory on right flank toward Din deployment, allowing multi-arc fire against battle station and Din cruisers and boarding attempts against Din destroyers.  Boarding attempts generally don't amount to much and Sory units begin taking losses.  Light frigates arrived from shunt with drive core rupture (all ships take 1 hazard) at 1 crew, half of them die in repair resolution.  Turn 3 Din cruisers arrive on left flank behind carrier and everything falls apart.  Din cruisers double crit carrier, carrier finishes off some Din frigates with assistance from Sory frigates at center of table, Sory cruiser units beat up destroyers but go under half, fail to scratch battle station.  Turn 4, Sory units go for BL within easy reach (mostly frigates) and start attempting to FSD.  None make it.  Gunships arrive turn 5 to scratch a Velites on right flank.  End result -8/15 (really more like -8/19).

 

Second game capture the station vs Relthoza, Sory attack.  He ran battleship w/ 2 frigate escort, carrier, shunt cruisers, destroyers, and 3 units of frigates.  Each of us deployed to center of table.  I start with carrier, gunships, and 1 each of the light frigates and cruisers.  He puts battleship and carrier one behind the other, shunt cruisers on left end, destroyers ambush on either side of my column midway up table (actually on right), all his frigates in reserve (and they don't show up till turn 4).  Light frigates drives to max for first activation and capture the station by huge margin, also pick off frigate escorts of battleship.  Remaining units begin driving up the board, generally not amounting to much against cloaked T1s.  Relthoza use wings and cloaked firepower to destroy station.  Shunt cruisers jump spread out behind Sory gunships and light cruisers, 1 captures a light cruiser, other two crit gunship.  Units generally close turn 2, kill captured cruiser before it escapes.  Turn 3 Sory units arrive from reserve (drive core rupture on the frigates again...) Sory boarding attempts on Rel carrier generally whiff, but lucky double crits destroy Rel battleship.  Turn 4 all remaining reserves arrive.  Light cruisers come in from left flank, Rel frigates arrive from both flanks.  Rel frigates capture a gunship and destroy a second, tearing remaining light frigates to pieces as the carriers destroy each other.  Remaining Sory units begin attempting to FSD before frigates can finish them off.  One light frigate survives by diving into asteroid field with Agile making the difference between life and death.  Final score 11/11.  Would have been much worse result if not for statistical over-performance of some decisive shooting on battleship. 

 

Thoughts on units:

I really want to like the light frigates.  Assault blitz is probably too much of a cost adder for it to be worth the expense.  30 points is a full SRS token, or some substantial T1 upgrades.  If these guys don't board the turn they arrive, you regret it when the losses begin mounting.  At 20pts/ea you can't help but start complaining about the two arcs of firepower you aren't getting.  At 15, not so much.  1/3 additional expense for what typically adds up to a 3 die advantage is probably balanced, but tough to swallow.  They're clearly boarding focused, I wonder if second assault wouldn't be a better option.  I think they're a good at base configuration, wouldn't change anything except upgrade options.  Wouldn't take more than one squad of them in a typical game, just use them to snipe the heart out of an enemy T2 squad and nibble around the edges of the battle if able afterward.  Got greedy trying to crit a carrier, even if it was the target these are configured to be best against. 

 

New gunships were never given an opportunity to shine, I reserve judgement until given another opportunity to use them.  Gunship designation makes sense based on the the flexibility Sorylian MFV gives in that category, but I don't think anyone is going to be fooled, they're destroyers, with a shield to buy instead of a defensive MAR.

 

Light cruisers I have the most reservations about.  The shield coming baked in at 40pts is really useful.  Several times it was the difference between no damage/hit and hit/crit.  Once they start getting hurt though, they go fast.  AP isn't anywhere near enough to be a credible substitution for standard cruisers, especially at a total of 6 for the squad.  Guns feel good for the points value, but I'm not sure pack hunters is worthwhile without a squad size increase to 4.  Never felt like it was the difference between a good shot and a great shot, and as soon as one of them died (and that doesn't take long) it felt like a waste.  Glad I took the movement upgrade, it makes them feel distinct to be going that fast.  Agile alone means they've got great value as terrain hoppers, and I used that to my advantage twice.  I often play cruiser heavy lists, and I think I got the Lucern wrong as a result.  The new light units in general are opportunists, not workhorses.  I'll often play two stock cruiser squads in 1000pts, I'm interested in swapping that for one heavy and one light at approximately the same investment. 

 

With the upgrades I bought, if you dropped the ones I was complaining about and nibbled at the carrier, I could very nearly have afforded a Reaper squad fully kitted out.  I think I'd have been happier with that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Played two games today with this list:

995 pts

me:

Carrier w. gunship accompaniment 110pt + 90pt + 60pt upgrades = 260

- 10pt +1Sh, 5pt +2WC, 5pt +1Mv, 30pt 6xbomber, 10pt 2xinterceptor

 

2 squads Light cruiser @ 2x (3x40pt + 10pt upgrades) = 300

- 5pt +2Mv, 5pt Pack Hunter

 

1 squad Harvester gunship = 3x 50pt + 15pt upgrades = 195

-10pt +1Sh, 5pt Decimator

 

2 squads Light frigates 2x (6x 15pt + 5pt upgrades) = 240

- 5pt Assault blitz

 

Thank you for testing. :)  Your feedback is being noted be the correct people.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.