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S.Neil

Discussion Thread for the new Aquan Prime Stats

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- TL 0" on both, cruiser and carrier

- 1 SH on the carrier by default

To show the cheap-brawler-style of the cruiser:

- give it DT by default (and mb remove Reinforced (Fore)), remove the +1SH; add a +1HP option maybe? OR remove the DT option, give them hp4, add some good rb 1|2 torps, put up the PD one point (and mb add some mines?).

What role is planed for this cruiser? He wants to be a frontline brawler, close range (ok for me) but its stats are more like "hey, I come for you, take care! ... but pls dont aim at me ..."

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@Hive: See, I wasn't 100% sure whether you actually could substitute a Sulis for an Isonade, that's why I asked. Thanks for clearing that up. :)

 

 

About the Ladon: I had a ... weird idea. But, as they say, there's no "wrong" in brainstorming :lol: :

 - Give it the Agile MAR

 - Change the hardpoints to either +1 Shield or +2 PD for +5 points each

 - Here comes the weird part: Change the Port/Starboard Beams to ... Scatter! :o (something something joint weapons project with Sorylians something something)

Now you'd have a squadron that is practically made to engage ships with the Difficult Target MAR: Fore Beam can target smalls indiviually, side Scatter can link against a fourth one. Also the squadron can sneak up the board away from the main fleet by going through terrain if necessary.

IMHO having both Reinforced (Arc) and Difficult Target on a Medium feels weird, I'd either make the ship harder to hit or bolt on additional armour.

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Thoughts after absorbing the new ships for a few days, building some lists, and playing some small skirmishes (not full battles):

 

Nereid

 

My first impression--that this guy basically obsoletes the Snapper--remains.  Which makes me unhappy for several reasons, some of them admittedly personal.  Same cost once you add Pack Hunters to Snapper.  16AD torps with a threat range of 26" for Snapper (move +12" range bands) is better than Nereid's 10AD Beams with 23" range, even taking RB1 rerolls and point defense into account.  However, then you add another 20" for the Nereid's RB2 and 3 attacks.  Small as they are, it's infinitely greater than 0 and capable of hurting other smalls.  The bigger deal though is the Reinforced Fore.  That's the difference (roughly) between a capital class attack needing 9AD for a 50% chance of a kill, to needing 15AD for a 50% chance of a kill.  That's big.

 

In comparison to non-Aquan ships it doesn't come off so well.  The closest new light frigate is the Impact, which has the CR 5 in every arc (CR6 to the front, which doesn't matter against capitals though it does against non-capital attacks), better guns and a FF arc.  At the speeds the two ships move FF isn't a limit.  The Impact has  other minor advantages as well in speed, AP and Unmanned (and access to Scout, if you pay for it).  Most of those comments apply to the Works Raptor Tyranny as well (which also makes the Impact seem too cheap FYI).  The Ryushi Akkarai also has better guns, but lacks the critical 5th point of CR.  The other Elusive smalls use significantly different weapon layouts so are harder to judge.

 

Suggestions: Remove the RB3 AD and drop the speed to the 10/11 range.  That gives the Snapper enough more reach with the RB1 attack to offset the no reach at RB2 and some of the CR.  If it's an option (which it almost certainly isn't) I'd also add 1 point of AP to the Snapper.  A minor boost I wish had always been there.

 

Ladon:

 

I know I've been a broken record on this in the past, but I HATE how Firestorm has been adding more and more ships with a RB1 focus.  All that work in initial v2 design to encourage people to stay away from turning every battle into a min range cluster is going down the tubes.  The small ships is one thing, but first the Nectridea and now the Ladon...color me actively not-interested.  That aside, I also don't see much point to this ship, except for filling out cheap tier 2 against opponents with Scatter.  It's ten points cheaper than a Storm, but you lose so much (HP, TL, torps, AP, PD, Mines) and gain only RB1.  No thanks.

 

In comparison to other new cruisers only the Perseus seems to really outclass it, and I think that's more an issue with the Perseus than anything else.  It also seems inline with pre-existing cheap cruisers.

 

Suggestions: Switch Fore RB1 and RB2 AD, and give it TL 0.  I still wouldn't take it, but at least it wouldn't offend me as a completely non-Aquan design ;)

 

A more radical suggestion would be to do something like remove the F weapons entirely, and replace with a decent Any arc torpedo system. 5/5/5/5 or something like that, then allow Corrosive as a upgrade, and you'd have a squadron that I'd actually be interested in.  Even if Corrosive is a 10pt upgrade it becomes a viable alternative to Storms if you expect to face Scatter (where DT doesn't matter), is an extension of existing Aquan designs I'd like to see, and Corrosive is a fairly rare MAR so brings that into more common use as well.

 

Carcinus:

 

I can't seem to figure out what to do with this ship (a problem I'm having with all the escort carriers, to be honest).  By the time you give it DT and wings you're up to 180 points for a squadron with **** firepower that is not offset by wings (especially in Aquan lists where are getting into BB and Hvy Carrier points by then, both of which are better options even once you take the slot into account).  I don't see that it really helps the Ladon's either--you actually lose firepower to do what?  Bring two interceptors in a fleet with loads of PD and interceptors anyway?  Sorry--just not getting it I guess.

 

Suggestions:  Uh...I don't know.  Maybe a MAR that allows an Escort Carrier to become a 0-1 attachment to any other T2 or T3 squadron?  And/or possibly combine PD instead of link like Escorts do?  I'm floundering here.

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Some really nice suggestions, Reddwarf.

 

Personally I'm not sure what the design behind the Ladon is supposed to be. A cheaper version of the Storm, sure, but for only slightly less points, with a lot of features left out (the TL 1 seems more about being different for differences sake, TL0 is something of an Aquan hallmark).

Slightly more firepower and CR, but at the cost of mines and torpedoes, and a point of HP; it does not compare well with the Storm (although that might say something about the Storm, it is one of the best regular cruisers...)

That being said, I think some of the design choices are interesting. HP3 with Reinforced fore and the option to buy two shields certainly provides more durability than than can be seen at first glance.

 

I'll probably try out two squads for my next game, one shunt-bomb with Shield and ET, and one harasser with DT. 300 pts for two T2 choices is nice, although I do hope to find some more use for them other than cost.

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How about dedicated mine layers?

squadron size 2-3

 

No primary weapons at all, but with a good MN stat (maybe 5?) - fast and agile with stealth systems instead of DT

Still fit within the aquan mould, without treading on the toes of any aquan craft

 

MN5 would give them 10/7/5 AD mines as the squadron size diminishes, no idea how that would be costed

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Thank you to everyone that is testing and keep up what good work. I also want to note we are in the final week of testing now so go try out the other ships if you have not played with them yet.  Let SG know what you think as YOU the players are the reason the game is still around.

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Looking at the Carcinus, I can't ever imagine a world where I'd pick it over the Triton.  The Triton can carry more wings, is more defensible, has mines, and costs about the same as the Carcinus.  The Carcinus brings to the table better RB2 forward weapons and slightly better torps, as well as being harder to rush down and board.  If other Aquan T2 options weren't as great as they are, I'd say that the Carcinus would be okay.  But it's a competitive spot, and for them to get one of those spots, they need to fill a role in the fleet that the other ships don't.  Carrier would have been that quality if it weren't for the fact that you have to pay for the wings anyway, and every T1 option in the fleet already has access to wings.  

 

The ship needs something more.  Boosting the WC of each ship to three to make them the cheapest body to put mass wings on the table in the fleet at the cost of a valuable T2 slot might do just that.  I'd even consider giving them the 1 shield die for free, and making the hardpoint of gaining Difficult Target cost only +5, but also remove the shield die.  Either of those options would make the ship more viable, but both might be too much.  

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Looking at the Carcinus, I can't ever imagine a world where I'd pick it over the Triton.  The Triton can carry more wings, is more defensible, has mines, and costs about the same as the Carcinus.  The Carcinus brings to the table better RB2 forward weapons and slightly better torps, as well as being harder to rush down and board.  If other Aquan T2 options weren't as great as they are, I'd say that the Carcinus would be okay.  But it's a competitive spot, and for them to get one of those spots, they need to fill a role in the fleet that the other ships don't.  Carrier would have been that quality if it weren't for the fact that you have to pay for the wings anyway, and every T1 option in the fleet already has access to wings.  

 

The ship needs something more.  Boosting the WC of each ship to three to make them the cheapest body to put mass wings on the table in the fleet at the cost of a valuable T2 slot might do just that.  I'd even consider giving them the 1 shield die for free, and making the hardpoint of gaining Difficult Target cost only +5, but also remove the shield die.  Either of those options would make the ship more viable, but both might be too much.  

 

 

Devils Advocate....

 

A 6/8 carrier with 7HP, 1 Shield, 9AD beams with ET, and 6AD of torpedoes vs 5/6 Escort Carrier with Difficult Target and 10AD Beams with ET at optimum ranges, and 8AD of torpedoes.  That's not including the higher BL given up by the Charybdis.

 

Proto, you are the first person that has ever said they would take the Charybdis over anything else.....  I guess there is a first time for everything.  ;)

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Proto, you are the first person that has ever said they would take the Charybdis over anything else.....  I guess there is a first time for everything.  ;)

 

I never said anything else.  Just the Carcinus.  And not because the Triton is better than them.  It's not.  It's just that our other T2 options far outstrip the Carcinus, while the Triton is at least insanely cheap compared to other T1 options, and if you pay for some accompaniment, isn't terrible.

 

There was a heavy dose of unspoken qualifiers attached to that statement.   :P

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If I have read this correctly the new cruiser carrier is a tier one in patrol fleets ! Oh dear - I am still going to give them all a try in my next game but the one minor yippeee was going to Have tier 2 carrier capacity. I was going to Run two cheap carriers and one of each of the new cruisers. Back to the drawing board lol

I just hope I am wrong with my first impression (it can be quite different on the table top and I do account for lucky/unlucky rolls in game when judging how they perform)

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I know there have been some suggestions to the Ladon in this thread already, but I wanted to weigh in.  As a light cruiser, it is of course going to be directly compared to the Isonade.  When you run that comparison, however, you don't see a light cruiser.  You see a bad ship that you have no reason to take.

 

The Aquans have a feel of being swift, maneuverable, and armed in almost every direction.  When you see a "light" cruiser, and find out it is slower and less maneuverable, in addition to being only marginally as well armed, and easier to kill to boot?  It feels bad.  A light cruiser should not be all of those things, especially not the first two!  The hard part is, the Isonade is already a very good ship for its points, and is easy to compare unfavorably against.  With an 11" move and a 0" TL, it's hard to get something even faster and more maneuverable without outclassing the frigates.  So, designing this ship in a satisfying way is a bit of a nightmare to start with.

 

First of all, get rid of the shield and give it difficult target out the gate, as well as a 0" TL.  This sets it apart as a "light" cruiser, as it starts you off with a feeling that the ship is in fact a lighter design than the Isonade.  Have the default cost go up to 45 from this change.  

 

Now, to look at the weapons, and the ship's purpose.  It basically has the Isonade's loadout, but trades Aft firepower for 2 AD in the RB1 Fore.  Oh, and no torps or mines.  So, the only thing it does better (and only marginally at that) is rip things apart close up.  It has no rear facing weapons, so it is meant to be a spear-head of a sort, or a flanker.  For the ten points difference between these two ships, the choice to pay for Isonades is laughably clear.  So, we still want this ship to be cheaper than the Isonade, and we want the Isonade to be the better front-line brawler.  That's what the cruiser does.  This ship needs a role that would make it unique, as you can very effectivly use Isonades to spear-head a flank.  Here's an idea:  Give them mines, and the Minefield (1, 6AD) MAR.  The ship is still rubbish at assault, still can't do the things other similar ships can, but it's a MAR other Aquan T1 and T3 ships have, and would definitely make the Ladon feel unique, and really warrant that "discount Isonade" feel.  Have the ship gain a MN 3 rating, nerf the forward beam to 5/6/3, or maybe a touch lower, and suddenly you have ships that have a different value that they add to a fleet without having to do a major rework.

 

Yes, they're a bit slower.  Yes, they're not nearly as well armed.  Yes, they're easier to kill.  But they give you a tactical advantage that your regular cruiser doesn't.  It's a simple change, but a powerful one.

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I actually would very much welcome the Minefield MAR outside of our escorts and dread.... I for one would also really welcome the Commander fleet build to change to include light cruisers in frigate squadrons... as it stands i find the isonade to be a strange pick but IF you gave it the option for minefields, no mine value however and allowed with the commander it to hide in normal frigate squadrons that would be amazing, yes you lose the minefield MAR as you're forced to choose DT over it... this would make frigates at RB 2 to the side have the save firepower I mean i know this is the last day for comments... but to make this ship truly great maybe go for it

 

Change hardpoints to: +Minefield MAR (1, 6AD) instead of +1 shield but make it free, so you choose between a 40 point ship that gives minefields or DT.

and perhaps to encourage use of the commander AND the new ships AND escorts... add a second upgrade to the commander giving minefields placed using the Minefield MAR are given the Drone Mines MAR but have thier AD cut by 2... This adds a ton of utility to the Ladon as I can take a squad of 3 to drop 4 AD minefields with drone mines and can use them to hunt enemy smalls

 

So maybe scratch adding the Ladon to frigates as it would be more useful on its own... but that extra 10 points you save using a Ladon over an Isonade in a frigate squad may make it more appealing....

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So having used all three of these ships I will give my final thoughts on them.

Neried

A different take on the snapper. Can't get as high ad and hard to target more than two frigates with its weapons and get anything but 10 ad up the tailpipe of an enemy tier 1 and elusive to help with the return fire (as it should not be able to get to the sides of them needing 3 sixes to get a kill with the reinforced fore) is very annoying for the opponent to deal with. 6ad of beams at a long range (for aquans anyway) is nice to start chipping at the enemy fleet. I am happy with this ship :)

Ladon

This is a hard one. As a cheap tier 2 shunter it can perform but when deployed its not as good. The 1" turn limit makes it hard (for an aquan ship) to turn and get the fore beams on the same target when they have passed each other and the side beams come to less than frigates with the small squad size. I think it could do with something to really get it competing for a place in lists unless you have 120 points left and only a tier 2 place to use. As for what that is very hard. 5pts reduction, DT as standard (doesn't mesh well with reinforced fore and 1" turn in my mind though) turn limit o" or even just a slight increase in its broadside firepower, stealth to help it close unscathed. I don't know what would help it and be fair (5pts reduction makes a big difference but is my favourite as upgrades soon get those points back) I feel a slight tweek and could be an excellent ship for all level fleets (don't think it would last long at battle fleet or higher for the points cost) I do like the idea of scatter for the broadsides (helps it take down dt and elusive targets) but just doesn't feel aquan to me

Carcinus

The only ship from the new ones (for both aquans and terrans) that I really don't like. I wouldn't take it as a tier 1 in patrol fleet level games (too easily gives up too many battlelog points) and in larger fleet battles would crumble far too easily. Srs seems it main weapon but after one ship lost (never mind 2!) It really loses its teeth. Normal firepower is dreadful and had trouble damaging anything as they had always taken damage before getting into beam range. I could be ok with the poor firepower if it had better defences.

This is the ship I am finding hardest to find a place in my fleet and even harder to find a fix. (well for me anyway) but a couple of ideas :

Find a way to make it tier 2 in patrol fleet games. Increase wing capacity to 3 per ship (6 bombers and 3 intercepters or 6 intercepters and 3 repair shuttles doubles the srs usefulness for the squad while still increasing its points) +1 to Dr and Cr as it's offensive capabilities are poor getting it to be harder to take down (therefore keeping the srs around for longer) would help or even +1 hp.

I would love to say increase its beams but I am looking for something else to really up the squad but keep the srs as it's main strength of attack and to me health stats would be best. Or give it the usual aquan trick of mines or something. It's the only one I really can't see me using as it is. Sorry I can't really think of what would be a great thing to do with this ship and keep the general feel to it still. I think it's the only one that probably sounds like I am moaning about it lol good idea but just doesn't seem to perform and gets focus fired and once a ship is gone its lost any teeth (and gums and jaw lol)

Hope this helps

(and didn't depress you much)

Azrael

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Managed to play today with one squad Nereid and Ladon at 800points (at patrolfleet level there is no way I would pick the Carcinus due to t1 and even above I dont see these ships as a pick for me ... dont know how to fix them or what to do with them).

Anyway ...

The Nereid are fine i guess, nothing to say about them. Nereid+Snapper will be my t3's in nearly any game in the future.

The Ladon ... well I took them as flanking squad and they did it well, played them with +1 shield (no ET I, thats not worth for me. Those 15 points were my 3 interceptors for my Oannes). If they get to RB 1 they hit hard but they cant take the punishment for being there. A slight point reduce would be nice or more HP or DT by default and remove of shield's for a torp-hardpoint or smth. Right now the ship just feels wrong. Its ok but a bit weird. And again: the 1" TL is just stupid.

My opponent play the new directorate frigates and light cruisers. The cruisers are great (he played them with beam only) and the frigates are REALLY nasty with their speed and dmg in RB1+2 (tbh I think they are a bit to strong for their points with 14" mv and CR6 in the front).

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