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S.Neil

Discussion Thread for the new Dindrenzi Model Stats

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Lets ignore the Velites for now and I have no issue if you keep testing it but we have gotten a good amount of feedback on it so far.  

 

SO lets look at the Decurion and what are your feeling and testing feedback on this ship?  (NOTE: We are aware of the rule overlap of Quick Launch and Split Berth.)

 

Dealign with the hardpoints for this ship how often do your see yourself taking one of the other?

 

Do you see yourself taking a squadron of these ships in a force that already has some very strong Tier 2 choices?

 

If you do not find this ship that attractive to take what other options would you go with?

New Hardpoints?

Slight boost to weapons?

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Decurion.

Pros

- tough beggar

- good fore torps (inline with carrier/gunship)

- reasonable cost

- would always get fore torps over AA.

Cons

- its own broadsides are a bit naff. 8AD at best on a non damaged squadron. Wont kill much itself.

- no synergy with velites. Would fit better in with secutors to match torps and mines.

- will only ever take interceptors in a mixed squadron.

- AA only comes into play when its on 2HP. By which point its got no damage output. DR5 is still easy to plink to death. (Not that this is a bad thing!).

Given a whirl in a test match up rather than proper game. Just threw down some stuff. They hit hard if not dealt with. But if they are targeted and loose a model or god forbid 2. The teeth are taken right out of the. In a squad they MUST run bombers. After loosing a ship your down to 4 wings and fighters dont quite cut it.

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Right now the Decurion looks pretty unappealing to me, as I said earlier: It's pretty tough for its points cost and model size, but I doubt many would go out of their way to shoot at them so their toughness doesn't move fire away from the squishier parts of the fleet. Nearly all of their "scare-factor" sits in their SRS token, but to weaken that you have to kill the ships carrying it which means the first four points of damage a Decurion takes don't accomplish much at all. Which would be fine but IMHO it goes against the "plinkability" that's one of the defining traits of the Dindrenzi.

 

So, without any actual playtesting done by me, I'd say they need "scarier" broadsides. Something like the Falchion's broadsides, maybe, so 4/6/2/-, or even 5/6/3/- like the gun the Pugios have. This would be able to accomplish something without being overwhelmingly terrifying, IMO; the Decurion squadron would also lose potency from taking damage, not only from losing whole ships. This shouldn't be for free, of course.

 

As for hardpoints: I'd really like to increase their Mn value, so how about a +1 Mn hardpoint for the same cost as the Ablative removal hardpoint? The other two are alright, I think; remove Ablative Plating MAR is something most Dindrenzi Tier 2 and Tier 1 have, so of course they get it (I normally don't use it, though, but that's nothing specific to the Decurion), and opening the arc of the torpedoes to fore is nice and useful, but if I'd use it would mostly depend on me having the points to spare or not, so I guess it's fairly priced as well. ;)

 

Also, and this is a long shot, but is there a possibility that the three Escort Carriers will become available as accompaniments for Carriers? I'd probably dance a little if that happened. :lol:

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I just want to make it clear that seeing any ships added as accompaniments right now is very unlikely.  This takes a lot of testing to find safe places for accompaniments to be both worth while without being game breaking.  

 

But I do agree many of the ships in the current game would be interesting as accompaniments.

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The current Decurions are a waste of points, because they don't do anything you need.

Want a 6-Wing Token? The Carrier is cheaper (if a bit more fragile overall). If you're looking for a support ship, give it 2 Tokens of 3-4 Interceptors, and laugh at Torpedos fleet-wide. The Escort Carriers don't really fill this support roll very well. The Carrier is probably better attacking, because it has Deck Crews.

Want to upgrade a Cruiser Squadron? Too bad, there is zero synergy to be had this way. You're basically trading firepower for a 2-Wing Token. That's a bad trade, even if it was free.

This is why most people look at it and scratch their head. It looks like it is intended to be an attacking unit, but it feels risky to actually attack. So start by giving it Deck Crews, like every other Dindrenzi carrier.

Then adjust its weapons to synergize with both Cruisers. It lacks a Kinetic, so plus-up the P/S weapons so they substantially add firepower. There should be a 6 or 7 on there somewhere. Next, boost either the Mn or Torp value so it's useful with the Velites, instead of a waste of time. My instinct is to lose Torpedoes for a 5 Mn.

Finally, as I alluded, treat them just like Heavy Cruisers, and allow them to upgrade any Cruiser squadron.

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Lets ignore the Velites for now and I have no issue if you keep testing it but we have gotten a good amount of feedback on it so far.

SO lets look at the Decurion and what are your feeling and testing feedback on this ship? (NOTE: We are aware of the rule overlap of Quick Launch and Split Berth.)

Dealign with the hardpoints for this ship how often do your see yourself taking one of the other?

Do you see yourself taking a squadron of these ships in a force that already has some very strong Tier 2 choices?

If you do not find this ship that attractive to take what other options would you go with?

New Hardpoints?

Slight boost to weapons?

for me I love this model, probably my favourite of the task force launch... but I can't see me ever taking it... at T2 it competes with too much and doesn't offer enough, maybe as a support with 2 squads of 3 interceptors but I don't think the dindrenzi have the ability to take support ships like this, everything needs to be pulling its weight offensively because if you get to the point you're playing defensively it's too late

maybe give them 4mn so they can fill the role of dedicated mine layer and srs support, means they can free up the options to not take secutors and maintain mine coverage... my biggest gripe is they don't synergies with anything really really, would be perfect to shroud a destroyer squad in mines to keep T3s away and srs coverage for the rest (this is all I can ever see it doing)

as for the whole debate on the cruisers every oppo is well aware of them by time they'll be seen in numbers (short of buying many reinforcement sets not sure how I'm going to get more and I really don't need 6 pugios for every cruiser squad, I just don't)... so anyone worth playing against is gonna hit the squad with every torp in thier fleets turn 1 until they are useless, don't care how cheap it is, we can't cope with that much damage... my suggestion would be lower the movement to make them more difficult to use but I think by time you add up the points needed to protect them properly they are bit as cheap an option as skim reading suggests... not unplayable but worth considering when writing a list, in a tournament when you play a variety of lists they will have games of sheer joy and total destruction turn one in the same day at I'd imagine

good shunt option but to me that makes them compete with gunships less than secutors... I do like the cataphract lite idea though

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I know this is late, but I spent a lot of time play testing the new ships for all the races with 2 friends over the past 2 weeks and I still wanted to post the feedback.  We got in 12 games (all at 800 points taking copious notes) with various race combinations of fleets containing the new ships vs. fleets containing only existing ships and fleets both containing the new ships.  Unfortunately I came down very sick this past weekend and did not have time to polish and submit our feedback and summary battle reports by the 15th.  I still haven't written up the battle summaries, but here were our thoughts and experiences.

 

General Thoughts

After playing a more than a few games I have found that almost all of the new ships are significantly easier to board than existing ships.  The new ships are boarding liabilities, when even facing non-traditional boarding races like Terrans and Aquans.  Even the traditional boarding race's new ships are boarding liabilities.  For example, based on past precedence Tier 2s normally have at least 2-4 AP.  I understand Light Cruisers are suppose to be between Cruisers and Frigates, but I feel they sacrifice too much for too high a points cost and too easily give up Tier 2 Battle Log - especially in the AP numbers.  Besides the boarding issues experienced with the new ships, the Agile MAR seems to be over costed across the board on the new ships.

 

Light Cruisers

Light Cruisers are a hard sell because they are so fragile and cause you to take a Tier 2 Battle Log hit.  I think these would see more play if they remained Tier 2s, but only gave up Tier 3 BL.  Light Cruisers should also be consistent across the races like other Ship Classes and have 3 HP.  There could be a +1 HP Hard Point or upgrade option for the tougher Races.  Something else to watch out for is the Light Cruiser upgrades turning them into worse normal Cruisers, at which point you would just take a base normal Cruiser.  Also, Light Cruisers for races that can take normal Cruisers and Heavy Cruisers in squadrons of 4, make their Light Cruiser squadrons of 3 even worse.  If the Light Cruisers are worse (but cheaper) versions of normal Cruisers that are balanced around squadrons of 4, then the Light Cruiser Squadrons of 3 are even more gimped than normal and much easier to score the same amount of Battle Log points. It would also be interesting if Light Cruiser squadrons could take a Torpedo, Shield, R&D, Shunt, or normal Cruiser as a squadron upgrade. 

 

Escort Carriers

I don't know what to think of the Escort Carriers, it feels like they need to be very finely balanced to provide an alternative or supplement to Carriers.  I like how the Dindrenzi Escort Carrier is as tough as their Heavy Cruiser.  I feel like all races Escort Carriers should be as tough as their Heavy Cruiser.  In general I feel that Escort Carriers trade smaller wing capacity, firepower, and point per wing ratio for speed and smaller Battle Log hit.  The escort Carriers are also more difficult to remove, as long as the Carrier doesn't have a Tier 2 accompaniment.  One thing I think all Escort Carriers need is an upgrade or hard point to increase their SRS capacity by 1.  Also, Cruiser squadron upgrades should support both Heavy Cruisers and Escort Cruisers, instead of limiting you to one or the other.  The new Cruiser squadrons that can only take Escort Carrier upgrades don't synergize well at all.  

 

Light Frigates

Light Frigates all seem to have a hard time differentiating themselves from other Frigates and Corvettes for all races.  The Aquan Light Frigate is at least unique with its DR and CR the same, but I don't know if that's a good thing.  Besides being overshadowed by other Frigates and Corvettes, Light Frigates also seem overpriced for what you get.  Given their overlap with existing Tier 3 ships, reducing their price to 10-15 pts may establish their niche.  They could be like the Omnidyne Corvettes at 15 points with either fore or port/starboard weapons.  Another option to make Light Frigates more unique would be to make Elusive Target and/or Agile either standard MARs or upgrade options for Light Frigates.

 

Escort Carrier - Decurion

  • Like that it's as tough as Heavy Cruisers
  • Felt like Needs ability to take Deck Crews as upgrade
  • Guns felt very weak and squadron lost almost all of its teeth as soon as SRS was damaged or one ship lost
  • Could use option to take +1 wings
  • Why are these the only upgrade option for the new Velites Cruiser squadrons?
  • Can't compete with Cruiser squads with Heavy Cruiser upgrades
  • Quick launch Fore seems redundant given ability for multiple Ships with wings to launch and join wings almost anywhere
  • Want to like it, but it just didn't perform as a Heavy Cruiser squadrons or Carriers with accompaniment 

Light Frigate - Pugio

  • Closely resembles existing Frigate
  • Slower, -1 CP, -1 CR, and lose torps over Thraex
  • +1 DR, 10 pts cheaper, 0" TL, and gains 1 DR at RB1 over Thraex
  • Scatter weapon great for hunting Tier 3s, but had to close where small squadron size was liability - made great target of opportunity for opponent
  • Same cost and stat line of existing Corvette which is used for hunting Tier 3s
  • Corvettes were faster, more survivable, and more flexible with Pack Hunter
  • Why are these only in squadrons of 2-3? Every other light Frigate is 3-6
  • Should size be at least 2-4, like Corvette? - readjust weapon profile for larger squadron sizes
  • Needs to be at least as fast as current Frigate

Cruiser - Velites

  • Competes with current Cruiser, one of the best in the game
  • Performed well, but was expected given likeness to the Secutor
  • Why is this not a Light Cruiser with 3 HP
  • If light Cruiser could have upgrade for 4 HP
  • Cannot take Heavy Cruiser upgrade, stuck with Escort Carrier that doesn't synergize
  • Scatter gunrack and FF scatter great for hunting Tier 3
  • Debatable on whether the trade offs over the Current Cruiser make it better or slightly worse
  • Might need more differentiation, maybe change to Light Cruiser with focus on hunting Tier 3s

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Used the PDF for the first time today.  Ended up using a Nausicaa with a single Decurion.  

The SRS served ulimately as a Deterrant and never got to so much as contribute a PD roll before a swarm of interceptors from the Overseer came and ripped them to shreds.  Fortunately, the Decurion ended up being a low priority target and was never subsequently targeted by any foe.  It managed to provide a solid 3 PD against follow up attacks from Bomber wings and the extra AD on broadsides and torpedoes helped to deal with the remaining enemy ships.  The MN12 left in the ships wake was essentially a no go zone for the enemy fleet and thanks to a few engines to maximum cards applied early game, the ship was able to drop a pair of these across an Overseer and Ascendency destroying the former and leaving the last one seriously damaged.  

The Pugio are 60pts, with the nature of their stats they cannot ever really be 3-6 sized squadrons and they are officially the cheapest full strength frigate squadron in the game.  They achieved little more than distracting enemy fire and defeating some rival Impacts themselves.  The Directorate force had 14 Impacts proxied across the fleet, with two serving as attachments to the Anarchist.  This investment was more than double that of the amount spent on Pugio and so the difference in result between the two new TF ships was deserved. 

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As a follow up cause I was short on time, also used a squadron of Velietes.  They shunt arrived in on turn 3 intersecting an Overseer Carrier and broadsiding at an Impact squadron.  After two activatiosn they attributed 4 damage to said Carrier and destroyed 4 Impacts, they lost one ship in return with heavy damage to another before they shunted out of combat before being completely lost for an overall very successful deployment.  Ships went in at 60pts (+Scatter).  

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Also, and this is a long shot, but is there a possibility that the three Escort Carriers will become available as accompaniments for Carriers? I'd probably dance a little if that happened. :lol:

 

Yeah, yeah, quoting yourself makes you go blind and all that. ;) Still, I guess I have a debt to pay, so enjoy: https://youtu.be/dQw4w9WgXcQ

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Remember that the potential 20AD is a mix of Kinetic and Scatter - so not only do you lose coherency but that AD potential only exists in a 4" band.

Agreed.

You have to get pretty close for the Velites to be that deadly.

 

Under 8 inches for 20 AD and under 16 inches for 19 AD, if I did the math correctly.

 

Since their PD is only 2, most capable opponents are not gonna let them get that close undamaged and use long range torpedo attacks to soften them up a bit.

But even if you avoid that by SRS escort it is gonna use up resources you could use otherwise.

 

As for the possibility of a shunt entry - seems viable in theory - but don't forget that Dindrenzi are pretty helpless at close range.

The Velites even more so, since they come with a turn limit of 2 and no mines.

 

If your First Strike does fail to hit hard for whatever reason and coordination with the rest of the fleet is off, you are going to be in trouble.

If, on the other hand, you manage to make everything happen according to plan you deserve a good result.

 

So, overall, the Velites, as well as all the other new ships, seem balanced and interesting options to me so far.

I am very interested in the new ship types and welcome the opportunity to discuss them here.

 

Although I have to admit that I welcome the upgrade for the Dindrenzi Destroyers even more :3

 

Still struggeling to find a role for the Nausica battleship and the Heavy Cruisers though.

But my playing experience is somewhat limited, so I might just miss something there.

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Off-Topic:

The Naussica is a T1 beat stick, or a Medium Slayer. Try this 205-point starting loadout:

-1" TL

+2 Mn

Double Mines

This gives you a unit which will do damage any time it lines up the Direct forward-fixed, as well as protect the rear of your fleet with 2x AD7 Mines each turn. Combine it with another mine layer, and you'll be well-protected against Shunt Entry.

The Nausicaa is very vulnerable to units with Indirect Weapons, so you should mitigate this to some degree. You can easily add three Buckers or two Scutas/RSN Sirens for 46-50 points, or (for now) 1 Escort Carrier with 2 Interceptors for 55 points. The Escort Carrier seems best for the points, as it adds 5PD and 2AD to Torps, while being very resilient. It also brings Mines, which could allow a monster 12 AD Mine drive-by.

The Heavy Cruisers are basically the same as the Nausicaa, but trade some defense for offense. Mainly, they have better Torps and VERY strong Gunracks, and a higher Kinetic AD at RBs 1,3, & 4, but are softer targets and suffer more AD degredation from damage.

If you run Heavy Cruisers with a Naussica-Escort Carrier combo, you'll have a very solid a ~550 points you can stick in a corner Turn 1, dropping a huge minefield behind them. Hmm, maybe I should try this when I finally paint my Escort Carriers.

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Off-Topic:

The Naussica is a T1 beat stick, or a Medium Slayer. Try this 205-point starting loadout:

-1" TL

+2 Mn

Double Mines

This gives you a unit which will do damage any time it lines up the Direct forward-fixed, as well as protect the rear of your fleet with 2x AD7 Mines each turn. Combine it with another mine layer, and you'll be well-protected against Shunt Entry.

The Nausicaa is very vulnerable to units with Indirect Weapons, so you should mitigate this to some degree. You can easily add three Buckers or two Scutas/RSN Sirens for 46-50 points, or (for now) 1 Escort Carrier with 2 Interceptors for 55 points. The Escort Carrier seems best for the points, as it adds 5PD and 2AD to Torps, while being very resilient. It also brings Mines, which could allow a monster 12 AD Mine drive-by.

The Heavy Cruisers are basically the same as the Nausicaa, but trade some defense for offense. Mainly, they have better Torps and VERY strong Gunracks, and a higher Kinetic AD at RBs 1,3, & 4, but are softer targets and suffer more AD degredation from damage.

If you run Heavy Cruisers with a Naussica-Escort Carrier combo, you'll have a very solid a ~550 points you can stick in a corner Turn 1, dropping a huge minefield behind them. Hmm, maybe I should try this when I finally paint my Escort Carriers.

I love both of these units and struggle to get my worth out of them however this is deffo getting a trial game in the near future

I've also been using the new destroyers recently and must say they are a fantastic option now with hidden killer, I got a lucky shot at the weekend and took a full strength Appollo out of action at the weekend, if it wasn't for an awful roll on boarding my legion would of took it away with no problem (7 results of 2 or less dice from 10 attacks was not what the doctor ordered)

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Off-Topic:

The Naussica is a T1 beat stick, or a Medium Slayer. Try this 205-point starting loadout:

-1" TL

+2 Mn

Double Mines

This gives you a unit which will do damage any time it lines up the Direct forward-fixed, as well as protect the rear of your fleet with 2x AD7 Mines each turn. Combine it with another mine layer, and you'll be well-protected against Shunt Entry.

The Nausicaa is very vulnerable to units with Indirect Weapons, so you should mitigate this to some degree. You can easily add three Buckers or two Scutas/RSN Sirens for 46-50 points, or (for now) 1 Escort Carrier with 2 Interceptors for 55 points. The Escort Carrier seems best for the points, as it adds 5PD and 2AD to Torps, while being very resilient. It also brings Mines, which could allow a monster 12 AD Mine drive-by.

The Heavy Cruisers are basically the same as the Nausicaa, but trade some defense for offense. Mainly, they have better Torps and VERY strong Gunracks, and a higher Kinetic AD at RBs 1,3, & 4, but are softer targets and suffer more AD degredation from damage.

If you run Heavy Cruisers with a Naussica-Escort Carrier combo, you'll have a very solid a ~550 points you can stick in a corner Turn 1, dropping a huge minefield behind them. Hmm, maybe I should try this when I finally paint my Escort Carriers.

I am not giving up on the Nausicaa any time soon and I'll definetly try too use it in combination with Sirens.

But overall I think it is best to keep it as cheap as possible.

 

Thank you very much for the advise, though :)

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I love both of these units and struggle to get my worth out of them however this is deffo getting a trial game in the near future

I've also been using the new destroyers recently and must say they are a fantastic option now with hidden killer, I got a lucky shot at the weekend and took a full strength Appollo out of action at the weekend, if it wasn't for an awful roll on boarding my legion would of took it away with no problem (7 results of 2 or less dice from 10 attacks was not what the doctor ordered)

I am glad to hear that.

 

Always liked the Dindrenzi Destroyers.

Always struggled with them.

 

But I am optimistic, that their new stats make them much more viable.

Thanks for confirming that.

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Warning, the following post is rated 'B' for Brutally Honest.

 

All this talk of the buff to the Tridents making them actually 'viable'... Really... 

 

Tridents were 'viable' before the damn buff, what did people want from a destroyer in a Railgun heavy faction? Trident had Stealth Systems, it had a good Railgun, it had access to High Energy. Yes, the secondary weapons were a joke, IT'S A DESTROYER! It fills the role of 'High Powered Sniper Rifle' and just that role, didn't make it ****! Just because it wasn't as shiny as those silly RSN things it needed a buff? You'd think the Trident was the equivalent of the Lowe from World of Tanks with all the cries of 'plz buff'. Ugh, I need another frakking coffee... 

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If they were viable before, why were they voted as the most useless unit in the game on these forums? Generally, they were never showing up in fleet lists either. One of the best Dindrenzi players, based on the War Log, Spellduckwrong, stated he never used them after a few tries. Secutors, Gunships, and Heavy Cruisers out-competed them.

And then there is the data we can't see; model sales. If you have a popular model line, and one box is woefully underselling compared to everything else, what would that tell you?

That said, this doesn't mean they were completely useless and garbage; they clearly were viable for some, as some players advocated for them, and demonstrated success with them. This doesn't mean they were balanced compared to everything else in the game.

We'll see what happens with these changes and a couple new Tier 2 options.

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Well it definatly out does the same cost terran destroyer.

That's a good point, assuming you upgrade the Trident to Hidden Killer. Maybe that should be +10 points instead of +5.

However, the Artemis is marginally more resilient and a bit more flexible at 60 points. The 0" TL and 8" Mv gives it a few more tactical options too. I doubt those outweigh the Tridents superior range at 60 points.

But realistically, who's taking the Artemis without Nuclear? That's a complete game-changer for +10 points.

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Warning: this post is also rated 'B' for Brutally Honest. Seriously, I might as well put this warning in my signature these days... 

 

It's why I mentioned the Lowe from World of Tanks. The Lowe is a good tank in that game, but it is one of the most complained about tanks because 'PLZ BUFF'. That is down to people buying the Lowe with in game Gold when they've never played higher than Tier 4 and don't have the faintest clue about what the hell to do with a Tier 8 Heavy Tank... So they call it rubbish when they get stomped in Tier 8 and 9 matches! It would appear that the Trident is Firestorm Armada's answer to the much maligned (and much buffed) Lowe, though for different reasons to WoT's gold spamming Tier 4 noobs... 

 

On paper, the Trident did indeed look like it was over costed, under powered and a bit of a useless piece of garbage in the Dindrenzi list, especially when compared to that RSN destroyer, the Artemis and most of the other destroyers in the game. In game, however, the Trident can be very, very useful for taking long range shots at enemy Tier 2s and enemy Tier 1s. This is down to the Trident having great AD in RB4 and even better AD in RB3, with Stealth Systems to make return fire more likely to do nothing. And because you get Stealth Systems, you can relocate if you have to and keep the benefits of Stealth Systems (unlike Hidden Killer). For gits and shiggles, you can buy High Energy Kinetics, because Hazard Markers for everyone LOL!

 

The Trident is a Sniper Ship, and that is all it does. No bells and whistles, no flashing lights. It has one role on the battle field, sniping things at silly ranges and getting away with it. When I have used the Trident, I've gone in knowing that it can only do one thing, but it does it well. Sniping. It is that simple. I don't think I've ever had a game, using the Tridents, where I've thought "oh, I wish I had Firebirds or whatever that RSN thing is called". Trident was good at its job before the buff. Hence me wondering now why everyone else was calling for the Trident to be buffed. I will say this though, the Murmillo seems to be a bit of a pointless ship. If I want a really tough Tier 2 ship with good firepower everywhere, I take the Spatha... 

 

Also, that cost-effectiveness comparison of the Destroyer to the Cruisers, Heavy Cruisers and Gunships is a bit weird. It's like comparing an L96 to an M4A1, a SCAR-H and a Blunderbuss. Seems like a pointless exercise in pointlessness to me. 

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