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S.Neil

Discussion Thread for the new Dindrenzi Model Stats

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Vs Terqui. Toro/corrosive heavy. Play perfectly fine after damage, because well they have more dice than a secutor... 2 of them still easily through out almost a double crit. double degredation is not a problem when its the same gun plus another! As for the supposed weakness of 2PD, well thats only vs torps. Still just as tough vs beams etc.

Its the same chassis (which is fine) with a bigger fore beatstick and a bigger scatter beatstick. For less points. Allows you to squueze that extra squadron in for target saturation. Honestly no problem with the concept, just the execution. Hell just make it a secutor and give it the "cata-lite" style gun, throw on a RB1 nasty torp barrage to keep the feel. No more clashing with the Secutor. It can still bombard from range just as well as the Secutor, and is then better once the enemy close, to the fore and the side. Iys a no-brainer.

Tourney tomorrow. May be able to get another game in after the 3 Saturday rounds before the curry. Technically its in a few hours but my room is about as hot as Dramos after it was nuked so Ive woken up!

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So instead of play testing the ship that was given to the community some of you are jumping right away to something completely different to test something that the community as a hole is not playing with.

 

I would highly suggest to play with the current version first, provide your results and feedback.  Jumping right away to home brewed rules is not a good method for testing.  If the communities results are similar then the powers at be will take the at into account.  

To me this sounds like you may feel personally attacked by brainstorming alternative roles for the Velites. I just wanted to make clear that that was nowhere near my intention. But, and I guess that's the baseline most contributors to this thread can agree on, the Velites looks like an obvious competition for the Secutor. Which, IMHO, is somewhat unneccessary, and my guess was that this was subject to change in the near future. Getting ideas out as early as possible, even bad ones, is all that I was trying to do. I hope that's not unwelcome. If it is you're of course free to ignore my rambling. ;)

 

 

I still think the Secutor is better than the Velites in two situations: Playing on a table with a lot of terrain where torpedoes as a steady source of early damage (and, of course, defense against enemy torpedoes) are more important that forward firepower AND having an opposing cruiser squadron (think Falcatas) shunt in behind your fleet, because mines (I wouldn't want to place my cruisers on top of a 8AD mine, but I may be weird). I'd really love to hear from people who already tested the Velites how it fared in these circumstances, and generally how often these things happen at all, i.e. whether they're relevant concerns or not.

 

 

Also, I had an additional thought about the possible role for the Velites: The name makes me think of skirmishing infantry, so how about skirmishing cruisers? :D My first thought was turrets as main armament, but that's so un-Dindrenzi that it borders on blasphemy. So, strong scatter gunracks, weak railguns (like the railgun on the Thraex, maybe)? I think, looking at the model, that that may be possible. Just throwing it out there. :)

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I want to apologize if I came off in an negative manner in some of my earlier posts.  Everyone is entitled to their own opinions.  The powers at be (Neil) will be taking in all the feedback.  I have a set of suggestion that could help for better feedback below.  

 

As there were no set of rules and guidelines set down for the public beta feedback we found that people were heading off in directions that are on the levels of conjecture at times.  

 

The best method to refine the ships is testing every version of the ships that are released.  No matter if they look to good or like something you might never want to take.   

 

-Test with an player of equal or higher skill level than yourself.

 

-A pregame conversation to what the Beta ships do in manner of offense, defense, movement, utility and area of influence prior to list building.

 

-Fielding at least 2 squadrons of the ships that are being tested if they are not a tier 1 ship.

 

-Take lots of notes and have conversations with your testing partner.  This means the test game will take much longer than normal.  

 

-Abnormal dice rolls of extreme highs or lows are ignored as an aberration of the random mechanism of rolling dice plus the exploding 6s. (example: 12AD attack and you get 22 hits because of chain 6s or I have 6PD and 5AD to defend against a 15AD boarding action and I only defended with 2 success and the attacker tripled the current CP count.)

 

-Playing games at different point levels helps to see how Beta ships work in the range of the system.

 

-Try to leave personal agendas aside when testing because the most honest and cleaner testing results will lead to better data that the people who get the final say on the ships can take into account.

 

-When providing feedback post your testing results and try to find solutions that will work within the current model if it has already been created. Also ideas that will not invalidate other ships currently in the line.  

 

As I am under the NDA there are a few things I can't explain to the public that would give you the "OH, now I understand why we are doing this!".  It is not a negative thing just a factor of circumstances.

 

Please keep testing and providing feedback.  Neil is ever watching .. :o   

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Played against the Velites last night. They were brutal. I was running a torp-heavy terquai list (aka something that should take them to the cleaners) and even then I was incredibly lucky to win the game. Velites need to lose an AD or two from somewhere.

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Played against the Velites last night. They were brutal. I was running a torp-heavy terquai list (aka something that should take them to the cleaners) and even then I was incredibly lucky to win the game. Velites need to lose an AD or two from somewhere.

 

Thanks you for getting in a game with them and for your feedback.

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Now that there is some game feedback from actual games with the Velites (well, one game) it sounds like it may not be balanced for the points.

This might be worth a specific poll, but which option sounds better?

A) Keep the current statline, and increase the points

B) Change the stats

Personally, I would change the stats. First, decrease the close-range AD on the Kinetic weapon, so they max at 16-18 AD. Then, add two Hardpoints:

(Offense) change Fixed Scatter to Fore

(Defense) +1 HP

The first option will make them much more effective against Difficult Targets, the second would be interesting with Ablative and the "double-degredation". All three options would have slightly different tactics.

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What weapons does the Taskforce version have?

I've tried the Velites now at 800 points vs Terrans. The Velites definitely suffered from less PD and were Nuked once by Harpoons. You have to absorb that damage if you want to get into optimal range with all three Vels.. So that's a con. No mines meant no denial areas behind them. Whilst they have the speed to chase things! the TL2 is definitely a hindrance. The weapon loadout is odd.. Hard to get that 'sweet spot' and annoying to calculate so kind of a minus.

Pros.. Scatter gunrack. Very useful if moved into or next to gas clouds, smalls etc.

Points costing ummmm... Kind of worse than Secutors, the Torps are definitely missed..Mines are handy..

Advice.. Lose the Front scatter but increase PD to 3, maybe give it low AD Broadside scatters? So a gunship/ cruiser cross??

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Played a game against two Velites squads today.  AD calculations were annoying, and I countered the unit... by ignoring it.  TL2 kept one out of the fight, stuck in a narrow path between board edge and asteroid field while I passed it, until the opposing admiral was able to play burn thrusters. 

 

The second unit flanked behind my carrier and all but one shot it.  Then there was nothing much left on that side of the board, so I could ignore them too :unsure: 

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Some thoughts after a few days of absorbing info, building lists, and playing some small skirmishes (not full games).

 

Pugio:

 

These things are nasty.  120 pts for 21!!! AD.  Or 3x9AD Scatter (bye bye other tier 3 squadrons).  That's very very good--too good for my tastes.  They are sufficiently different from the Hammer and Sgian to give a use to all, but honestly I would take these over 3 Hammers any day.  Only 30 pts more and yeah, you don't have the Kinetic, but you've got a lot more raw AD and no TL 1 (which I've always found very limiting on the Hammers).  Plus more PD, AP, etc...

 

Compared to the other Light Frigates they also come off very well.  The slowest, but the most AD by quite a lot.

 

Suggestions:  Reduce AD to 4/5/2, reduce PD to 1.  The Hammers only needed PD 2 because of their abnormally small SQ in the first place.  Even with those reductions they are still probably up there near the Directorate Impact for best in class (no Elusive, better AD).  I'd even consider removing Scatter and leaving them just Primary weapons.

 

Velites:

 

Surprised how fast passions have sprung up around this ship.  Compared to the Fury they have the same Kinetic, better gunracks (AD and Scatter), and FF Scatter instead of F torps.  Weapons wise the Velite seems to be clearly superior.  It is noticeably faster, but has TL2 which is a drawback but not necessarily much of one when you can make 3 turns in a movement action.  The Fury is also better at AP, Mines, and most importantly PD.  They are 5pts cheaper per unit.  Overall, I think I prefer the Velites.  If it wasn't for PD 2, I'd definitely prefer them--in the skirmish they survived it well enough, but in a larger game I can't imagine a better target for multiple torp activations on turn 1.

 

Compared to the other new cruisers they are pretty clearly at the top, along with the Champion I think.  Most expensive though so it evens out some.

 

Suggestions:  Weirdly (have I ever been anything else?) I find the Pugios to be a bigger concern than these.  Still, reducing the Mv to 9 so the TL has more of an impact seems a good balancing factor (can still make 3 turns, but only if you move the min 2" between), and reducing the FF scatter AD to 4/3 is minor but makes that first point of double degrade hurt more, which also seems warranted to me.

 

Decurion:

 

I can't envision ever taking a full squadron of escort carriers, but at least here I can see the utility and balancing factor of replacing one Velite with a Decurion (something I don't really see the point of with the other escort carriers).  The 2 wings cover the Velite PD weakness nicely, and removing one of the big gunned ships brings their AD down at the same time.  Quick Launch Fore is a bit confusing for two reasons:  first, it's useless on more than one of them because Split Berth is better; 2nd the way it's written I can't quite tell if you can launch normally to P/S and aft (touching the base), and only use the Quick Launch in the forward arc, or if you can only launch forward, period.  I'm guessing the former, but...The torpedoes, sadly, are only ever good enough in full squadrons, and don't synergize with Velites at all. 

 

Even though I think I would be more likely to use an escort carrier in place of a cruiser with this one compared to the Aquan/Directorate version, I'd still probably rather stick with 3 Velites.

 

Suggestions:  As usual I'm struggling with trying to figure out how to use the escort carriers, so don't have any great suggestions.  As in the other escort carrier comments, some sort of MAR that allows them to be an accompaniment for other t2/t3 squadrons is the best I got.

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Some thoughts after a few days of absorbing info, building lists, and playing some small skirmishes (not full games).

Pugio:

These things are nasty. 120 pts for 21!!! AD. Or 3x9AD Scatter (bye bye other tier 3 squadrons). That's very very good--too good for my tastes. They are sufficiently different from the Hammer and Sgian to give a use to all, but honestly I would take these over 3 Hammers any day. Only 30 pts more and yeah, you don't have the Kinetic, but you've got a lot more raw AD and no TL 1 (which I've always found very limiting on the Hammers). Plus more PD, AP, etc...

Compared to the other Light Frigates they also come off very well. The slowest, but the most AD by quite a lot.

Suggestions: Reduce AD to 4/5/2, reduce PD to 1. The Hammers only needed PD 2 because of their abnormally small SQ in the first place. Even with those reductions they are still probably up there near the Directorate Impact for best in class (no Elusive, better AD). I'd even consider removing Scatter and leaving them just Primary weapons.

Have you lost your sense of vision man?

My copy reads Scatter: 5|6|3.

A unit of three has Scatter: 10|12|6, not a top out of 21.

Goodness, I would be scheduling a visit with an eye doctor if I were you.

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When I saw the squadron size for the Pugio, I did have to do a double take. Everyone else gets six ships to a squadron for the light frigates, but no! The Dindrenzi have to be all awkward and go for three ships in a light frigate squadron... 

 

Damn rebels... 

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Yep--my moron-hood struck again.  I was thinking SQ was like the others, not 2-3.  Still a good ship for spamming multiple squadrons and I'd like to see an AD reduction *OR* lose the Scatter, but it should keep the PD.  And it's a much smaller concern overall.

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Played a game against two Velites squads today.  AD calculations were annoying, and I countered the unit... by ignoring it.  TL2 kept one out of the fight, stuck in a narrow path between board edge and asteroid field while I passed it, until the opposing admiral was able to play burn thrusters. 

 

The second unit flanked behind my carrier and all but one shot it.  Then there was nothing much left on that side of the board, so I could ignore them too :unsure:

 

Thank you for the feedback.

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Sgians come in 4s. Just sayin'.

Personlly I would like pugios in 3-6. Because every one elses are. And also because they are teeny tiny. Barely larger than Sgians. They look good in a squad of 6. I also think they need a stat overhaul to actually reflect the models.....

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Thank you to everyone that is testing and keep up what good work. I also want to note we are in the final week of testing now so go try out the other ships if you have not played with them yet.  Let SG know what you think as YOU the players are the reason the game is still around.

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I tested two squads of Decurions and four squads of Pugios in a 1500 pt game, Ryushi vs Dindrenzi/RSN. Both sides were SRS and PD heavy.

 

Decurions: I took removed ablative and 6x bomber wings each squad.

Pros:

-Tough for their price, especially against torps; 30+ points less than a murmillo, but better situationally +1 PD thanks to wing support.

-Fleet filler; great way to get support for the rest of your fleet, which these guys did surprisingly well. They're like Carriers that have a smaller battle log footprint.

 

Cons:

-Terrible speed; While it's definitely faster than most other heavy cruisers, you'll either spend precious movement snaking to get targets, or have few targets of value. This is assuming you have FF Torps; taking Fore Torps will mean you have to pay points, be less tough, and have more targets. Unfortunately, even with that option, it leads me to my next con...

-Ignorable; their firepower until their wings are in range is nothing impressive. 10 Torp AD is pretty standard for cruisers, and that's all they have. Also, even when their starboard and port guns get targets, and unless they're frigates, you'll do very little actual damage. A wing of bombers would give good firepower, but as soon as that starts taking damage or is outright killed, you'll find the Decurions next to useless. The mines are also fairly weak (6 AD when linked).

 

Thoughts:

Definitely a force multiplier. I think the only role these guys would properly fill is dedicated support; if you expect firepower, you'll be disappointed, but they're great at helping the rest of your fleet for cheap. Fighters would be definitely interesting on these guys.

 

Weak, Strong, or Balanced?

Balanced, not weak. I just used them for the wrong reason, and I know that. Given the choice, I'd sell the torps for better broadsides though.

 

 

Pugio:

Pros:

-Scatter Weapons: A single Pugio can reliably one shot a Ryushi Corvette. This was very unfortunate for my opponent, because I had 12 pugios vs his 15 corvettes; by the end of the game, I had 7 left, while he had 2. I lost 5 frigates to terrain, capital gunfire, and my own mines. Also, 12 AD to the rear of a ship is painfully effective.

-0" Turn Limit: Hahahaha! YES

 

Cons:

-Small Squad Size: Their DR/CR of 4/5 and a squad size of 3 max means you'll be giving your opponent easy battle log points. Otherwise, their squad size is fine.

-Unignorable: Unlike the Decurions, you /want/ to spend your firepower killing these guys. For starters, you get more battle log points, and secondly, a full squad deals 10-12 AD per turn. Good target for torpedoes.

 

Thoughts:

-If you're list is lacking Gunships, take Pugios. Good for Frigate tax, but arguably good enough to take more beyond the Tax. Does not invalidate Sgians, merely gives Dindrenzi Admirals a different type of close ranged Frigate.

 

Weak, Strong, or Balanced?

Balanced, but a bit Strong. My opponent never cried foul, nor did I ever think they performed too well, but they did their job at killing Tier 3s. Spartan Games created these guys for the knife-fight and as anti-shunt, and they do EXACTLY that. No change; anything more is OP, anything less would make them too weak vs Sgians.

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So I ran an introduction game of Taskforce and then Armada for a friend last night using the Terran vs Dindrenzi box, with my friend playing Dindrenzi both times. In the Armada game we played, I took un-upgraded Harpoons so it was all balanced points wise. And man, given that Harpoons are Torpedo Cruisers and the Velites have low PD, the Velites were excessively brutal.

Now I know a squadron of 2 cruisers and 2 squadrons of 3 frigates isn't standard fleet composition, but when the Velites closed in on my Harpoons (something they did very easily with 11" move), even when one Velite was on 2 HP, within 8" they were still throwing out 11 dice! Double degradation was not much of an issue. Someone using the turning template for the first time also did not have any issues lining up the Fixed guns, even with TL2.

 

Not the best playtesting scenario to report back on, but every little helps I hope.

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