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Firestorm Armada 3.0 headed our way?

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Momentum based movements with vectored maneuvers

 

That might be a bit too much for a game like FA, but I agree that the movement phase could use some improvement.

I also think space ship combat should be mostly about manoeuvring, meaning that it's okay for movement to use up a major chunk of the total playing time.

Regarding movement as a “time sink” is just asking for “shooting gallery” type of games imo.

 

One of the major problems I'm having with the current movement rules is the inability for ships to move at less than halve speed.

This is claimed to depict momentum, but that claim looks rather silly when the same rules enable ships to go from full speed to full stop instantaneously.

 

Another problem is that the turning template isn't the most handy template ever invented.

What I would really like to have for FA is some positionable “snake” like template, a bit like the one that comes with Star Wars Armada, but better.

Something like that has the potential to seriously speed up the movement phase, freeing time for more detailed movement rules.

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Am I the only person who doesnt find movement taking up a tonne of time? It is certainly more time consuming than shooting or assault, but ive never found it all that laborious.

Also glad to here the "engine" will remain the same...as the minute vector movement comes in, im out (worst experiences with space combat games all used "realistic" vector movement)

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I think that a "what's new" section might be unnecessary. People should just read the new book.

I'm glad to hear the 3.0 rules will be streamlined but not a complete overhaul.

Trying to help reel in new customers....

MINES Reqeust: if they stay the same....Can you explain in the fluff what they are and why they behave how they do, if not rename them entirely? New players struggle with the concept vs. the name. e.g. "these aren't mines they are ____!"

...either way limited in uses per game (like assaults) that would help ease the "disbelief".

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Hi All,

 

Always interesting to see the reaction to something I write, such as mentioning FA 3.0. The easiest way to describe the 3.0 book is a tidy up and a chance to update background materials, brand new imagery (we've made a lot more models since the 2.0 book came out) and deliver any new addendums to the 2.0 core engine. So instead of just reprinting the 2.0 book, which we are going to run out of, we are taking the opportunity to look things over, evaluate if we need to tweak/improve anything. The guiding hand on this will be our gamer testers and this isn't about rebooting 2,0. It would be foolish of us not to look at the 2.0 game engine as we move towards a reprint.

 

To Pok - I'm not trying to make you sigh heavily. This is a functional evaluation of the 2.0 book prior to a reprint.

 

Cheers,

Spartan Neil

I have a tough question for you, Neil.  Feel free to say that you can't answer it at this time if you want but I was wondering if our fleet guide books will be made obsolete by this new edition.

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That might be a bit too much for a game like FA, but I agree that the movement phase could use some improvement.

I also think space ship combat should be mostly about manoeuvring, meaning that it's okay for movement to use up a major chunk of the total playing time.

Regarding movement as a “time sink” is just asking for “shooting gallery” type of games imo.

 

One of the major problems I'm having with the current movement rules is the inability for ships to move at less than halve speed.

This is claimed to depict momentum, but that claim looks rather silly when the same rules enable ships to go from full speed to full stop instantaneously.

 

Another problem is that the turning template isn't the most handy template ever invented.

What I would really like to have for FA is some positionable “snake” like template, a bit like the one that comes with Star Wars Armada, but better.

Something like that has the potential to seriously speed up the movement phase, freeing time for more detailed movement rules.

 

 

 

Am I the only person who doesnt find movement taking up a tonne of time? It is certainly more time consuming than shooting or assault, but ive never found it all that laborious.

Also glad to here the "engine" will remain the same...as the minute vector movement comes in, im out (worst experiences with space combat games all used "realistic" vector movement)

 

I wouldn't describe it as a time sink, it's just drawn out and unnecessarily complicated, mostly because of the template. Speeding it up doesn't have to remove the tactical aspect of the game. Ultimately a balance has to be struck between a tactical movement mechanic and an enjoyable gameplay experience. 

 

I've had a few people cite the current movement mechanics as their primary reason for not getting into FSA. I've played a few games without the movement tool essentially allowing an on the spot 45 degree turn at the cost of 1 inch of movement subject to the usual turn limit. I find it a good compromise and not using the template speeds up play. 

 

I can see why some purists might want to keep the templates for the tactical element, but if the tradeoff to get a faster, smoother movement phase is losing a small bit of the tactical nuance then I can live with it because I'll probably have more opponents that way. 

 

EDIT: also completely agree that vectored movement is a step in the wrong direction...

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@StingrayP226, that's a good question.  I'm judging based on the reaction of new players.  Let's say, 7 MN has vs. 7 Torps.  We know how they work in game.  I don't necessarily have a problem with that.

 

Partly it's the name "mine", which conjures up certain expectations.

 

Part is how they work.  A single mine token does have a threat area as big as a planet, however, which affects multiple ships & there is no way to neutralize them.

 

New players envision sci-fi shows with thousands and thousands of mines to cover an area of space that big, that probably took days if not weeks to deploy.  Players assume they would take up a lot of space on a ship to store devices like this.  The idea that ships can motor around continuing to deploy these huge fields of "mines"...every turn.... is a bit of a jaw-dropper.

 

Just sayin' what I've heard.

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Honestly, mines really should be either one-use weapon, or actually all should be minefield mar. Give them to select units rather than every single ship in some fleets and none in others, and you have mines that work like "real" mines, not just another short ranged weapon.

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My main beef with current rules is the lax use of keywords. Tightening this up would be my no 1 request. It wouldnt change the game much but would make the rules far more clear.

 

Two minor balance issues

-aquans are powerful

-mines are powerful

And as others have said movement does take a long time.

 

I dont have any solutions for those three. Giving more ships the minefield mar instead of mines did seem like a good idea.

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I do desagree with your issue with mines.

The way they work is fine, and they aren't OP. As a vanguard I've done tons of demo, and much more normal games as a player. I never any player/customer complaining about the mines system. The only real issue here lie with the Aquan units having so much mines on top of their formidable manovrability.

IMHO you're more biased with the game scale and time, as a game turn did't represent seconds of battle but hours of real time (just like real ww2 naval battles, took hours to settle in reality).

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Mine's only really get out of hand when spammed to death. Had a game before Christmas when my Carnivores failed a command check for flanking and ended up hitting an endless trail of mines. Must have got about 40 dice worth!

Mine's in FSA are described as homing in on a target, so maybe reduce the AD of a mine by 1 for each target after the first? This would help keep mines viable and take the edge off at the same time. And you could sacrifice lesser models in a unit to preserve more valuble one's.

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Helllo JorduSpeaks,

 

That's a nice idea. I will ensure all folk on the forum will know what is changing and I will actively encourage the FA testers to interact with the fourm as a whole to share information.aboput any new amends.

 

Cheers,

Spartan Neil

 

I think that a "what's new" section might be unnecessary. People should just read the new book.

I'm glad to hear the 3.0 rules will be streamlined but not a complete overhaul.

Trying to help reel in new customers....

MINES Reqeust: if they stay the same....Can you explain in the fluff what they are and why they behave how they do, if not rename them entirely? New players struggle with the concept vs. the name. e.g. "these aren't mines they are ____!"

...either way limited in uses per game (like assaults) that would help ease the "disbelief".

 

I think a "What's new" or changelog would be useful in any rules related document Spartan puts together. Rules, Scenarios, ORBATs... a changelog would be helpful for all of them.

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i really don't mean this to sound rude or aggressive, but how does the movement take so long? you pick your ships, you already will have an idea of where they go, you should already know how far they can move and what the turn limit is, you stick the template down and you move them. a little adjustment at the end to make sure the arcs are ok and on to the next ship. 30 seconds at most surely?

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i really don't mean this to sound rude or aggressive, but how does the movement take so long? you pick your ships, you already will have an idea of where they go, you should already know how far they can move and what the turn limit is, you stick the template down and you move them. a little adjustment at the end to make sure the arcs are ok and on to the next ship. 30 seconds at most surely?

Repeating this process x15 when ships get in close and you have 3D terrain. I've seen a lot of people get around the terrain but by using 2d terrain, but that shouldn't be necessary considering Spartan uses 3D terrain in their own images.

Sure you get faster with practice, but 20-30 seconds a ship is unnecessary. Ditching the template and eyeballing the turns makes movement take half the time the couple of times I've played that way.

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In practice, it is a few seconds to move a ship. I was talking about 30 seconds to move the whole squadron. even measuring stuff individually, there are at most 6 ships in a squadron. A minute at most to move them all. The whole activation shouldn't take more than a few minutes and even then we are talking about multi arc firing, SRS, mines etc... 

 

You know, I always wondered why so many games in the war log were along the lines of 800 point game - had to call it due to time" we get 1500 point games done in our club nights, running from 6:30pm to 10:00pm and never run out of time to get the game finished. and we don't exactly rush through. We are always messing around and disappearing for drinks and cigarettes. 

Again, i am not being condescending but could it less of the rules being an issue, but players not getting on with it and speeding the game along. 

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kind of have to echo the above. Unless there's a lot of terrain you want to avoid, moving can be sped up just by measuring 1 or 2 models and moving the rest in similar fashion, especially for TL 0 stuff.

If you have opponents that will be ok with this then that's great, you can't rely on that in a tournament for example

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If you have opponents that will be ok with this then that's great, you can't rely on that in a tournament for example

 

You are quite right. it is better to get the movement thing done properly if you are going to a tournament. And get it done quickly! nothing would wind me up more than someone moving glacier slow. get used to the movement template and just get it done! :D

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If you have opponents that will be ok with this then that's great, you can't rely on that in a tournament for example

In a tournament, then by-the-book play will (and should) be enforced. So far, all of my games have been between a friend and myself, so this has never been a problem for us. Sadly I work weekends, so I can't speak of the broader community on my end. I can't see many objecting. In my experience any method of speeding up play in any game has never found much objection.

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In a tournament, then by-the-book play will (and should) be enforced. So far, all of my games have been between a friend and myself, so this has never been a problem for us. Sadly I work weekends, so I can't speak of the broader community on my end. I can't see many objecting. In my experience any method of speeding up play in any game has never found much objection.

That's kind of the point though, isn't it? It shouldn't be an agreement between players to bend the rules that speeds it up. I'd much prefer to use the correct rules than have to bend them to get people to play the game.

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i've actually just wandered out to my kitchen and timed myself using the movement template and a tape measure.......(don't laugh ;) - my wife is already judging me hahahaha!) it officially takes 15 seconds longer to move 5 ships properly using the movement template than just getting a tape measure and moving them. 

 

I will also say that unless you are using the movement template, you wont be able to accurately sort out the turn limits and in my opinion this is one of the best rules in the game. Smaller ships should turn quicker. If you ditch the movement template, how would you represent this? It would just have to be a "move x inches and then you can turn" which basically means you are doing the same thing, but with a tape measure instead of the template. 

 

Please Spartan! Don't change movement!!!!!

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but isn't it the whole point that targets are difficult to line up with fore fixed? i will be honest with you. I run a railgun heavy Sorylian fleet at the moment because I am addicted to Warwolf Gunships and Hasta Battlecruisers and i completely agree that it is frustrating when you can't quite get the angle.

 

However, surely the game designers reflected the difficulty in lining up shots in the power of the weapon. Difficult to get a shot off but my good god, when you fire, you leave a mess :D At least your dindrenzi ships get flank guns and mines. My gunships have nothing apart from front guns ;)

 

I would suggest that if it was easier to bring fore fixed weapons to bear, then fore fixed weapons should be less powerful, but that is another discussion entirely.  

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   I only find the movement to be clunky when you're trying to maneuver around other ships/terrain and the template doesn't fit next to the ship, forcing you to hover it over top or something awkward like that. Unfortunately this happens often when trying to keep a squadron in even loose cohesion.

 

  I don't have an answer for a precise and quick way to do this though, as every movement template seems to be like this. Even the star wars one has the same problems.

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i've actually just wandered out to my kitchen and timed myself using the movement template and a tape measure.......(don't laugh ;) - my wife is already judging me hahahaha!) it officially takes 15 seconds longer to move 5 ships properly using the movement template than just getting a tape measure and moving them.

I will also say that unless you are using the movement template, you wont be able to accurately sort out the turn limits and in my opinion this is one of the best rules in the game. Smaller ships should turn quicker. If you ditch the movement template, how would you represent this? It would just have to be a "move x inches and then you can turn" which basically means you are doing the same thing, but with a tape measure instead of the template.

Please Spartan! Don't change movement!!!!!

Haha! Yeah but that's well and good in ideal circumstances, as I said, it's when you get in tight with other ships or terrain that it becomes an issue. You physically can't fit the template in sometimes so you are hovering it above and doing it by eye anyway.

I disagree on the turn limits being hard to measure without the template, it's just inches. A tape measure does a better job of it. Simply because you don't have to try get in between models.

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