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Thamoz

Brief battle report, testing the Euclid.

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Good morning fellow screen-gazers.

 

Today (or possibly yesterday, depending on when I finish typing this report) I had a game against a regular opponent who, having never faced one before, requested I use a Euclid. I agreed, since I have very strong opinions on the Euclid and there is nothing like a good battle to really back them up with experience. I have not used the Euclid since early 2.0, and this was a chance to try it out again.

So my fleet ended up looking like:

 

Euclid + e-turret target painter                                   325 points

+ galen escort                                                              20 points

Aristotle + e-turrets and attached Kepler                   300 points

3x Cleomedes (e-turrets)                                           240 points

Hyperbius                                                                   120 points

5x Thales                                                                    100 points

3x Plutarchs                                                                135 points

 

Since I was stuck with the Euclid, I thought I would give is an upgrade target painter to try and make it more useful. Needing a naval large/massive, and a way to make up for the Euclids poor firepower, I next selected a Aristotle/Kepler combination. I then discovered I had left a fair chunk of my CoA fleet at home, so made up the rest of the fleet based on what I had with me and some basic necessities (Cleomedes for a cheapish and flexibleish medium squadron, plutarchs to hand out a bit of close range pain, Thales because... well, Thales) and added a Hyperbius because I like the hyperbius and it would offer a few nice synergies.

 

My opponent used his tournament KoB list;

 

Regent with shield upgrade

Ruler battleship

Halifax

Lord Hood

3x Tribal

3x Vanguard

3x Stalwart

5x Swift

 

He describes it as "plenty of activations, plenty of AP, lots of bang for your buck" or something like that. I do like it as a list, it has a good solid core and plenty of threats.

 

In deployment, I placed my Plutarchs in advance behind an Island, then set mostly to one side of the board. My opponent was more spread out, with his Tribals and Stalwarts on a far flank, Hood Regent, Ruler and corvettes in the centre, whilst the rest of this fleet held the other flank.

The game opened with a withering energy fussilade destroying the Halifax. Cleomedes, Hyperbius, Aristotle/Kepler all took shots at it, but the Euclid finished it off with a RB3 PA shot. The Euclid also rained down a fearsome dreadnought-level-rocket attack (9 dice -.-) on a corvette... and missed. It then fired a mighty energy turret shot (another 9 dice -.-) at the Lord Hood... and didn't even damage it. Aside from this, my fleet did very little. On the flank, my corvettes moved up to make a straight run at the enemy Regent next turn. The Lord Hood attempted to intercept them but the range (and some poor rolling) ensured only one went down. My Plutarchs (which had been deployed badly out of position and had no choice but to move out of cover too soon) then tore strips off the Lord Hood before being chomped on by the Tribals and Stalwarts.

Despite splitting the majority of my SAW into wings of 3, I was badly out activated. This didn't matter much, since my energy weapons can commit atrocities whilst barely moving out of my deployment zone, but it did mean my opponent has a run of uninterrupted moves at the end of the turn. I admit I cannot remember the order of things, but over the turn he advanced his Ruler and Regent (Ruler to face the Aristotle, Regent to face the Euclid) moved forward with the vanguards to further threaten the Aristotle in a few turns. My cleomedes suffered a crit here and there due to the Ruler, but mostly the first turn caused me little real damage beyond the loss of most of my Plutarchs.

 

We were playing an Ironclad scenario, which involved a random field order being drawn each time a squadron of the given size was destroyed. E.g. the first order was "Kill all mediums". I killed the Halifax, so scored a point and reshuffled the orders. Kill all smalls was drawn then, which neither of us achieved this turn.

Score: CoA: 1 KoB: 0

 

Turn 2.

I opened turn 2 with torpedo bomber drones hunting down submarines. Turns out wings of 3 are not very good at this, since even with 11 dice (thanks to swarm tactics) and hitting on 3s, vanguard CC is very able to defend them. 3 wings of Torp bombers went after these subs, causing a total of 2 points of damage and 1 crit (the crit coming from a 5 strong wing). I did, however, totally forget I had set up my corvettes for a charge in this turn. Which is why my friend took the liberty of sinking all but 2 of them using his Hood's turrets. The Hood would pay for its temerity in time though! My last Plutarch also fell, to the turrets or torps of Tribals. (Score one for the KoB! The next field order was... smalls again. Argh!)

Back on the other side, my Hyperbius attempted to finish off a submarine, but failed miserably. My Cleomedes suffered at the hands of the Ruler, and one was sunk. The Euclid floated down to normal-flying-level and again demonstrated how scary a 9 dice rocket attack and a 9 dice e-turret attack can be (hint; no damage caused, this time aiming at a corvette and a Stalwart). The Aristotle/Kepler reached out and punched the Ruler, once with broadsides and once with energy, followed by the Cleomedes broadside having a super-charged roll and causing a crit on the Ruler too (total 5 damage).

After seeing their comrades die, the 2 remaining Thales attempted to get revenge, boarding the Lord Hood. There were no survivors. Stalwarts then moved up and blew holes in the 2 Thales, making that last statement even more true. (Another point for the KoB! 3:1 now! Next order was to kill a large/massive squadron.) My last activation of the turn saw my plucky little escort go rogue, charge away from the Euclid straight at the Lord Hood! The 1 elite crewman leapt through the storm of AA and derelicted the battlecruiser for the might of penguins everywhere! There was much rejoicing!

... and then a swarm of fighters savaged my Hyperbius, the Regent blew a small hole in the Euclid, the vanguards moved up and took a few points off of the remaining two cleomedes and the enemy Swifts moved up into open water, chasing towards my Aristotle!!!

 

Score: 3:1 to the KoB.

 

Turn 3.

It all hung on this initiative roll. If Level9Red got it, those swifts would rave up to my Aristotle and prize it quicker than a certain substance off a shovel. If I won the roll, the Euclid would finally get a chance to be actively useful...

I won the roll! With a huge sigh of relief, I moved the Euclid into the best firing position I could (RB2) and into low-level flying mode. At RB2 the Euclid has a 9 dice PA (Prometheus, Aristotle, Diophantus all match that, the Coeus laughs at it. Good job the PA is not the Euclids main weapon, right? Right? Guys???) But you know what doesn't laugh at a PA? Corvettes :D 5 Swifts suffered the shot, 2 somehow survived the experience, but immediately broke down in a sobbing mess and refused to play nicely anymore.

*Ahem* sorry, I think I got a bit too involved there, but it was nice to see a 325 point model actually impact the game.

But wait, there is more! Remember that 25 point target painter upgrade? I finally got to use it! Thanks to inventive scientists, the Euclid managed to target paint the Ruler battleship and mark it for swift death. Well... sorta, it still managed to do nothing using its own e-turret and rockets.

Oh, and remember that rogue Galen escort? Turns out he was not done being Captain Awesome McAwesome. He sailed off and shot a Stalwart in the face, killing it dead.

Hyperbius tried to blast it too, using e-turret and e-blaster. Hyperbius then fell from the sky in a swarm of enemy SAW.

It was the Aristotle/Kepler who finally got the act together and blasted the Ruler away. 18 dice of e-turret hitting on 3s. Bits of the ruler were found in nearby hedges. (Score for the CoA! 3:2! next order... kill large/massive again)

After that of course, I was practically done for the turn. Cleomedes tried to intercept the Vanguards but lacked the dice numbers to cope with submerged targets (not their fault, they just had no other targets really). My opponent had a fair amount of his fleet out of position. Vanguards again moved up, having suffered one loss from somewhere. Next turn they would leap on the Aristotle. Regent and Tribals blew more holes in the Euclid, then Stalwarts sailed up and attempted to board it. High AA and specialist defences helped, but in the end both Stalwarts and Euclid were empty of crew, and the Euclid was sabotaged. Special call out to the Tribal squad, who at the very edge of RB4 scored a crit on the Aristotle and caused 3 corrosions via fusion leak. The Aristotle melted a bit in the end phase, total 4 damage.

 

Score: KoB 3 CoA 2. Objective: large/massive.

 

Turn 4

As the final turn began, the scene was not looking good.

On the right, I had my Aristotle/Kepler, and a bit ahead of them were 2 Cleomedes. Closing in towards them were 2 Vanguards.

In the centre, a Regent was rolling towards the left, with my Euclid close at hand.

On the left his 2 Stalwarts and 3 Tribals were racing to catch the Euclid.

He won initiative, and his Vanguards charged forward. One tried to Ram a Cleomedes en-route to the Aristotle, but soon discovered that Cleomedes hulls are made out of titanium coated, titanium flavoured, slabs of titanium! The Vanguard killed the Cleomedes, but the Cleomedes killed the Vanguard too! With only one surviving submarine, the attempted boarding of the Aristotle was repelled by the AA, CAP, Kepler and 6 elite crew. Fearful of Tribal firepower, I moved my Aristotle up and moved the Kepler out to shield it from the enemy. Energy weapons tore into the Regent, but it was not enough. Nor was it enough when the Regent turned its mighty fore guns on the Aristotle. The Euclid fenced with the Stalwarts, its PA (due to a half AD crit) was nearly toothless so it tried to run away. It suffered a bit more of a beating and the Tribals chased after it, closing the gap fast.

 

Then the turn and the game ended. Victory for the KoB 3 points to 2.

If we had carried on, the Euclid would have been boarded by the Tribals next turn (or shot down by combined Tribal/Stalwart power, if it managed to escape boarding range). It is likely the Aristotle would have fallen against the Regent, since it was heavily damaged and still trying to melt. My fleet was entirely spent, but the KoB had a fresh and undamaged cruiser squadron entering the fray, as well as a few still-dangerous units around.

 

Thoughts on the game:

Euclid.

The Euclid is a 300 point model. With 125 points of strategic value. It has (for its points cost) negligible firepower outside of RB1. It is called a dreadnought, has the price of a dreadnought, has a higher strategic value than most dreadnoughts, but it does not have either the survivability or firepower of a dreadnought. Its upgrades are overpriced to boot.

However...

It did do sterling work as a drone launcher, since it was the only drone launcher that was consistently available (my Kepler kept dodging down into wavelurking to protect itself). Turns out that 22 drones on the table at the beginning is enough to keep a single drone (6) launcher happily relaunching until the last turn, where it had run out. As a carrier, it worked well.

It has the movement and the turning capacity to make good use of its PA, it has the flexibility to target whatever it wants (just like most fliers) and, whilst 9 dice is not a terribly strong attack for rockets or e-weapons, it is only bad when you consider the points cost and dreadnought designation of the model.

On the other hand...

The contribution it made to this game could have been made EXACTLY as well by a 90 point Zeno and a 95 point Kepler, or better by the 240 point Diophantus, The key moment where it saved my Aristotle by eliminating most of the corvette squadron could have been done by any PA wielding vessel, including the Aristotle itself had I really needed it to. It felt like I was playing at a huge disadvantage, like I was missing a good chunk of power. In fact, it felt like when I was playing just after the September ORBAT update, when I effectively lost a full squadron from my CoA fleets due to the points rises of various units.

 

Target Painters

In this game I had 2 target painters, on board some of the faster and most flexible models that any target painters are mounted on. Hyperbius is 360 degree movement, speed 10. Euclid is 360 degree, speed 7. No other target painter equiped model even comes close to the Hyperbius in terms of getting into the right position at the right time. Even the Euclid can manage better at this than most mediums. They fly over obstructions and can see over everything except mountains. They are literally the most ideal models to place target painter generators on in the whole of Dystopian Wars (small models excepted). They are also some of the longest ranged target painter generators in the game, each with a range of 16 inches.

In the whole game of 4 turns, I got to activate a target painter 3 times. Twice from the Euclid and once from the Hyperbius. They were utterly useless for 2 whole turns.

If these two models cannot make effective use of their target painters, I think it might be worth taking a look at them in general. I discussed this with my opponent after the game, talking not only about these two models but other ones such as the Vengeance and Dominion. We concluded, as is the opinion of most people I think, that they are really not useful at the moment. I believe that they all need their ranges extending, giving them a fair chance of being used on turn 2 without being put in advance deployment. An extra 6 or 8 inches of range (or even standardising the range for target painters as 24 inches) would make the majority of them into actually useful tools. I mean, if a node launcher can affect a target 24 inches away, is it that unreasonable to think a sturginium-laser-pointer could mark a target from that far away too?

 

Escorts

Ha! My plucky little Galen scored 190 points worth of kills! Not bad for a 20 point model! Admitedly it had to run away from its parent model to do this, so effectively became a Thales corvette (especially since I forgot (and have not yet looked up) what happens if a squadron breaks coherency). Promotion for Captain Awesome McAwesome, next battle you can ride a Daedalus into battle and see if you can make that do anything useful!!

 

 

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@Thamoz: I really like your effort for the report and translating the slightly humorous and/or sarcastic exaggerations there seem very reasonable thoughts. Thank you very much for taking the time for this kind of feedback (this kind of feedback IS helpful and HAS an impact).

I do like your thoughts and the feedback on the target painters too. I think these (among others) are worth to be looked at.

 

- Taking a look at the Euclid as it is a flying dreadnought carrier in a supporting role: What point costs do you think would fit in its current form (for the main vessel and the upgrades)?

- The Drones btw seem to have had some pretty bad luck against the vanguards. Wings of 3 are at the edge of critting a Vanguard.

- For command coherency and being out of it see p. 41 and 44 of the digiad rulebook. Basically you have to take a disorder test with an additional success required at the end of the activation.

 

Looking forward to the Daedalus... (which did okaish the last time I used it, so it will surely be brilliant in the hands of Mr. McAwesome, just imagine what 6 elite marines under his leadership could do ...;) ).

 

R

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Do you think a few minor changes may have changed how you felt about a few things?  You had some pretty bad rolls with the Euclid's attacks, if they had been more in line with averages would it have helped actually change anything?

 

Also you said you fielded your drones in sets of 3 for the most part but then said fielding them in that size made it so they couldn't really do much.  Do you think the extra damage from a unit of 4 and 5 would have made them feel more important and dangerous than the 3 units of 3?  Being that the Euclid is primarily support, getting more out of your drones would have meant you got more out of the Euclid.

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I do tend to subscribe to the hyperbole school of writing rufus :P

 

@ Erloas

Whilst I did moan about it a bit in the report, I never really expected anything to come from the Euclids attacks (except when it uses its PA). The point I was hoping to make with it was not that the Euclid was bad because it lacked firepower, but that it was bad because it both lacked firepower and cost a ludicrous amount of points. On average I would expect (if shooting at cruiser-type targets) the rockets to maybe manage a point of damage (depending on AA levels) and the e-turret to maybe scrape a crit. Nothing special but these are long ranged weapons on a flying platform, and there is a lot to be said for being able to snipe at targets hidden behind islands. In this particular game, since I never expected or counted upon those attacks to do anything, my opinions and tactics would most likely not have changed.

 

On fielding the drones, the exact configurations I choose at deployment were:

2x3 fighters

1x4 fighters bombers

1x5 torp bombers

2x3 torp bombers

 

I intended the fighters to run interference and stop any nasty dive bomber threats, whilst the bigger fighter wing stayed close to the Aristotle to provide a CAP (since by far the easiest way to kill an aristotle is to board it. It is seriously no harder to board than a battlecruiser.) Since I was facing 3 submarines, I made the choice to go for three waves of attackers and take a gamble on them performing well. The wing of 5 torp bombers struck first, and even the linked 8 CC of defence and a guardian shield couldn't stop them getting a crit. It would have beena  double crit had not the CC been so high and rolled well. The wings of 3 went after a different vanguard, the first rolled 11 torps against 6 CC, and scored a point of damage due to a poor roll and good CC. The second wing repeated this.

 

I think my strategy with them was sound if a bit less reliable than with full wings. The small fighter wings made a nuisance  of themselves quite effectively and kill of a couple of enemy SAW squadrons. The big fighter wing provided some much needed reassurance for the Aristotle. On average, the torp bomber wings should have managed to score crits against the vanguards and bring them to the surface for further punishment. It does mean the results are a bit more up to chance though. 

 

The Euclid, as a carrier, brought 2 of the 3 wings of torp bombers to the table. Over the course of the game it launched a wing of 5 dive bombers (which were all intercepted and shot down before they could be used) and a wing of 5 torp bombers (which suffered the same fate). I do not think using the drones in a bigger squadron would change my opinion on the Euclid at all. The wings of 3 were a definite threat and were dangerous to their intended targets. If both wings of three had scored crits against the vanguard (as I would have generally expected) it would not have made me think higher of the Euclid.

 

@ rufus

 

Looking at the Euclid (and its context in the CoA fleet) I really do like its support-dread nature. The CoA fleet is marked out as being exceptionally well supplied with brilliant support units, it is part of what makes playing them so fun. Hyperbius, Hippasus, Time and Battle orbs, they are types of vessel unique to the CoA. That we also have a support dread is both appealing in role and flavour.

So, when I moan about the Euclid, please don't think I want it to do any other sort of role. I don't want a ferocious firebase of furious fury... we have the Prometheus for that (and it is marvelous at it!). I don't want some tough-for-its-points carrier brick like the Diophantus either. I want it to have its own unique place in the Orbat, which it is very close to having. 

To my mind, it brings three things to the table. A strong PA, a decent carrier ability and a toolbox of upgrades that can tailor it to support your fleet.

Thus, to me it competes with the Coeus (mobile PA machine) and the Epicurus (flying carrier). So it has to play up its main unique selling point; the toolbox of upgrades. Adding a few more of these would be a nice addition by the way! :P

 

For the base model, without changing any rules or stats or weapons, I would think a cost of approximately 230 points is fair.

Why? Because that is similar to the Diophantus, and the Euclid without upgrades is very similar to the Diophantus. It has superior maneuverability and the flexibility of flying, but also has a markedly lower CR (lowest of any dread I think) of 11. Plus the Euclid has 125 points of strategic value tacked on, compared to the 100 of the Diophantus.

 

230 points also gives you room to actually upgrade it without making it a horrific points sink.

Just to further justify my thoughts, a naked Euclid has no real supporting abilities except for its carrier ability. It therefore has to be a viable choice against the Epicurus (180 points, strategic value 75). The Euclid is the Epicurus' bigger brother, slightly tougher and with a massive PA strapped on. 50 points difference seems like a fair enough price difference for those added advantages.

 

So, 230 points for the base model. Now we get to the juicy bits, the upgrades. They are what make the Euclid unique and should be (though sadly at the moment are not) what makes this unit shine as a support dreadnought. Where other dreads cause massive destruction, the Euclid should offer blisteringly good synergy.

 

The first upgrade it has is Squadron support, colossus 4 for 50 points. Note; Colossus usually come in squads of 5. Is this reduced number a typo or a design choice? Either way, this is a good deal in that you get a fair discount on the Colossus squadron and you get a way to deliver them closer to the enemy. This upgrade seems fairly priced to me, as does the combat coordinator to give robots sustained fire. 8 inches of range covers a wide area from a model as big as the Euclid.

 

Second upgrade is combat coordinator Acrobatic pilots for the drones. Considering the state of drones at the moment, this is a useful upgrade to have access to. Is it worth 25 points though? No, not in my opinion. It is too short ranged to be worth that much. The similar affect from the Hyperbius is a 12 inch range, which is better. Even then, I would think this is a 20 point upgrade. Without an increase to its range, I think 15 points.

 

Third we come to the big trap. The carrier (9) upgrade. Prior to the drone nerf, 35 points would have been fair. Now I firmly believe that both this and the similar upgrade for the Diophantus is a trap. 3 drones that have only a 50% chance to come back is just not worth 35 points. The ability to launch more drones is only valuable if you have drones in the recycling pile. In the game above, I had 22 drones on the table and was able to relaunch a full wing 2 out of 4 turns, but each time that emptied the recycle pile. Carrier 9 would not have helped me much at all. This has also been my experience with the Diophantus upgrade and the Pericles (which is carrier 9 by default). Scrap this upgrade, give the Euclid carrier 9 by default and remove it from the Diophantus. If it must continue as an upgrade, 15 points would be the most I would pay for it.

 

Next we have the exciting Target Painter (energy weapons). I like this upgrade, but can't we also have the option for a target painter (primary weapons) too? Aristotle and Prometheus have the option! We have the technology! :P I discussed target painters in my original post, and this is one of the best models to have a target painter on. If the range was boosted to 24" then this would be worth 25 points. At 16 inches of range I would say 15 or 20 points is fair.

 

Finally we have the mine control generator. 12 inches is a better range than most mine control generators get, and CoA mines can be very very powerful. We have a fair few mine layers in the air too. I don't think this upgrade is useful enough to be worth 25 points. Even in a mine heavy list, it requires some very exact circumstances, terrain, opponent moves etc to be much use at all. 10 or 15 points might work for it, that is the same as the Diophantus.

 

(Note; since generators measure from the centre of the model, and the Euclid is a very wide model all around, the range of the generators is never quite as good as you think. I think this is why the Euclid seems to have quite generous generator ranges :)

 

Other options I would quite like to see:

Carrier (12) option, for if we want a supercarrier a'la the chinese floating fortress. This upgrade would cost a fair chunk of points though I think, like 50 ish.

options for disruption, dilation, time flow and shield (3) generators, for more flexibility and support capacity.

More combat coordinator options, like terror tactics, vertical dive, big fuel tanks. With the limit of 1 or 2 it would give you more options for tailoring the Euclid without it getting out of hand.

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A lot of very good points indeed though a good number seem a little much for reduction of point costs for upgrades and the model in general. Just my opinion on your points stated above.

When I have more time I can go down in a bit more detail my thoughts on them but that being said, Very well thought out and numerous points you nailed on the head with it! Cost too much for too little in return but it's still a support model and not a full blown killer like other dreadnoughts and that's why I believe your report makes the most sense

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Just to add to this (a bit late, I suppose, but still), I agree with all these points. A big points reduction is rather needed, and might make it feasible to take in my favoured 1k size games. That said, I feel that 230 might be a bit too far- the Euclid can be very effective with that PA. I'd say 240 would be fair.

 

Though, I tend to underestimate Strategic Value- After all, all I have to do is not lose it, and how could I lose such a magnificent model to these imperialist dogs?

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I've just picked up the Euclid box to go with a fleet of CoA that's on its way at the moment, primarily because I love the way the model looks (plus the Capeks, and the Alea look interesting), but I was aware that - on paper - it doesn't look all that great (for the points cost). I'd have thought though that the 2 Rocket Batteries might have been useful. I guess there's a lot of counters to Rockets, though.

I was also liking the look of the Daedalus - but is that also UP (underpowered)?!?  :-(

;-)

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Sorry, meant to reply to you @Bazlord but got distracted.

With the prospect of updated ORBATs I have hope that the Euclid will regain a place in our fleets. The changes to the PA... well, I am not sure how that will work for it. On the upside Capeks are excellent if pricey units and the Alea mines are nasty.

Rockets get better as the game goes on as stuff takes damage and ack-ack is reduced. Most of the CoA rockets don't have the AD numbers to be a massive threat though, but often have some form of hunter to make them sting. Capeks have hunter aerial +2 making them hit on a 2+ against aerial units as a base (which often means 3+ since either the Capeks or the enemy tend to like being obscured).

The Daedalus is not a strong unit, it is certainly not the most efficient use of points. It is fairly durable though, carries a few AP and is not terribly expensive in points. It often won't achieve much in a game though, with its weapons being mediocre. Its main problem though is competition within the ORBAT. For 30pts more you get the Epicurus, which is tougher and brings drones with it. Epicurus is overcosted too of course, but is at least useful as a drone launcher.

But these problems are well known and have been often discussed on various threads. I am optimistic that the new ORBAT will do a bit to fix these units.

 

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Thanks @Thamoz - i guess waiting for the ORBATS really is the only thing to do. But i think we all know how it is when you've got the resin-lust, and you want to gather unto you all the shiny tasties... ;-)

Glad to hear the Alea are little champs. I was thinking that the Rho Special Squadron looked good/fun. And that - at least - might give my 325pt Mine Controller Aerial Dreadnought a purpose in life ;-)

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Reading this BATREP it appears to me that CoA actually won 3:2.

Maybe it was recorded incorrectly? At no point did the KoB get 3:1 ahead, so I found that quite confusing. As for the suggested improvements and general summary of the Euclid I fully agree.

With the advent of v2.5 we are still disappointed: still overcosted with a confusing and limited array of options.

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On 10/08/2017 at 0:09 PM, Wolfchild said:

Reading this BATREP it appears to me that CoA actually won 3:2.

Maybe it was recorded incorrectly? At no point did the KoB get 3:1 ahead, so I found that quite confusing. As for the suggested improvements and general summary of the Euclid I fully agree.

With the advent of v2.5 we are still disappointed: still overcosted with a confusing and limited array of options.

I disagree (at least since v2.5). It's carrier and drone 16" 'bubble' is frightening: Being able to launch drones from Statospheric, you can park the Euclid in the center of the map.
It's almost untouchable and gives hunter +1 to all as well as swarm tactics. 

My oppononent @Farcages was on the receiving end and probably still has nightmares.

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That must be the only way to use it effectively then.

Fairly sure opponents will just learn to target it heavily in turn 1 before it can use to stratospheric and take some aerial hunters to swat it from the sky, or find a way to board it once weakened some.

Its **** that it feels like it has one role, one that further minimises it's already weak shooting capacity.

Glad u managed to get some utility tho. I've only once managed to get enough power output from drones in game to believe in their potential. That was in 2.0 games, now in 2.5 the Hunter+1 and Swarm tactics just brings us back to where we we're, (worse on torp bombers), so I still don't see the benefit of sinking 300+ points (+strategic points risk) into a flying carrier.

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11 minutes ago, Sidrial said:

My oppononent @Farcages was on the receiving end and probably still has nightmares.

Well, it won't hit for ****, but its damage comes from near inevitable drone waves that are very, very hard to counter without bringing a load of carriers or dedicated anti-air power. Park a Commodore there and you will bring down most targets through attrition.

It's not the raw firepower and/or numbers other units will bring on its own, but it's definately a headache and cost me more than a dreadnought and heavy battleship that game.

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