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Balteth

Sky dropped helixes ...

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Many players may think what they want.

If one player try to do this to me. The battle is gonna be ended before it starts.

 

So to ensure I understand you correctly. You're going to offhand fault a player for using a force as designed?

 

Hate to tell you but there is a HIGH chance the Ryushi and a lesser but probable chance RSN and/or Hawker will use this exact same tactic. If they all do you might be looking at ~20% of the forces that you just won't play against.

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::gah, editted after Dindrenzi infiltrators corrupted my Laptop into making the first bit make no sense!!!::

 

Personally I don't consider it 'gamey'. Gamey would be if the tactic made no logical, realistic, or lorewise sense. For the Dindrenzi it makes perfect sense that they'd hold as much of their forces as they can back till the last second. Their PF lore is a solid block of surgical strike; as loathe as I am to admit even the bloody Recon helix does fit that. Of the human races the generic scene for each would be: a Terran bureaucrat clearing another platoon to enter the slaughter but giving them each an extra half ration the morning before deployment, a Directorate cog finalizing their superior's arranged downfall before signing the liquidation paperwork, and a grinning Dindrenzi general staring at a screen and holding up one finger telling their subordinates to "wait for it" for what seems like half an hour. I don't see it as 'gamey', just part of the forces given tactics supported by lore. We sit and wait to the exact moment that we think is the perfect time to strike. AKA After the enemy has moved into position. As I've said before though, there are downsides to bringing that much skydrop. The ability may be annoying as only one force at the moment can do it heavily, but it's no where near game breaking or OP.

 

Its not game breaking (never said that, apologies if it was inferred), nor is it OP. 

 

That doesnt change the fact that it shouldnt be a valid tactic. 

 

Whatever you say the Dindrenzi general with or without this gets to stare at his screen for 30 minutes before telling them to arrive because thats what Sky Drop is. 

 

The ability to arrive when you want. 

 

What it shouldnt confer is the ability to deploy your units wherever you want in relation to the opponent, the only change that is required here is that if an Entire Helix is sky dropping then it does not count as a Helix for deployment. 

 

You say its not game breaking or OP, so it shouldnt be something that the Dindrenzi miss (pretty sure they wont), and it would solve what is seen by others as gamey. 

 

Additionally I dont think people are saying they would walk away from a game against Dindrenzi (or RSN / Hawker / Rushyi) because none of those factions are FORCED to deploy their helixes in this way. You can always choose to deploy all of your Helixes that have to setup on the table one after another, and then when you run out your opponent has to deploy all there remaining ones.

 

I am sure there other elements of the game that people consider gamey, but in my experience most of those turn out to have their own inherent risks (splitting how your tanks shoot at the same target to get flank / rear bonuses, maybe, sky dropping in crystals as Aquans to block LoS / waste activations?).

 

Admittedly I havent seen any threads complaining about those, so not sure if they are what you consider gamey within the game.

 

I dont consider Sky Drop gamey, powerful, difficult to deal with, minimal risks (although the do exist), and Sky drop in itself does not make a faction unbeatable, but I dont think of it as Gamey. This particular way to play though, that is gamey.

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Scratch me up as another one that doesn't consider it gamey. I think it only seems that way as the first few times you do it, it is pretty hard to do it without a smarmy git-grin going, but gameplay wise: it's within the rules, it makes sense according to the background, it isn't game breaking and it's not without it's disadvantages. So I really don't think it needs changing. :P

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If anything I think it will be a nurf for it to be otherwise. Not every Dindrenzi player will utilize the tactic heavily and the inherent risk of that much skydrop counters those that do. However, nearly every Dindrenzi player MUST run a helix that has no elements that begin the game on table. Of the 7 helicies only two so far have no skydrop (Aerials and Heavy), and of those with skydrop only the Core and (technically) the Levi have normally deployed units. Leaving 3.5 helicies always skydropping. So on top of the inherent risks of skydropping like getting out activated the first turn, overwatch, being a sitting duck for a turn, and scatter we'd now have to factor in always being out deployed. This discussion is literally boiled down to making a designed and tested mild advantage in deployment that we may or may not take full advantage of into an anti-lore nurf that we must endure every game.

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Scratch me up as another one that doesn't consider it gamey. I think it only seems that way as the first few times you do it, it is pretty hard to do it without a smarmy git-grin going, but gameplay wise: it's within the rules, it makes sense according to the background, it isn't game breaking and it's not without it's disadvantages. So I really don't think it needs changing. :P

 

Yep - after further consideration I'm in your camp too c0rruptd.

 

I understand how frustrating it might be Kraggi, but no more so than having crystals sky dropped into your flank and having your opponent get flank bonus shots from the other side of the table. All armies have frustrating aspects to them - it's what gives them their flavour.

 

And just to add another perspective, a full Terquai recon helix can be deployed with a lone figure on the table, with the other 12 elements waiting for sky drop/portal and that would count as a deployment, but a full Dindrenzi recon helix, which has no figures deployed, with 9 elements waiting for sky drop, shouldn't count as a deployment? Really?

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I understand how frustrating it might be Kraggi, but no more so than having crystals sky dropped into your flank and having your opponent get flank bonus shots from the other side of the table. All armies have frustrating aspects to them - it's what gives them their flavour.

 

And just to add another perspective, a full Terquai recon helix can be deployed with a lone figure on the table, with the other 12 elements waiting for sky drop/portal and that would count as a deployment, but a full Dindrenzi recon helix, which has no figures deployed, with 9 elements waiting for sky drop, shouldn't count as a deployment? Really?

 

Its good to see the things that others might consider gamey.

 

Yes I do think the Terquai helix should count as a deployment vs a non deployed helix, because the key component of that Helix is on the table and under threat from the word go. Especially as in games I have played we work on the assumption that you can only Nexus designate your own factions Sky Drop markers (its not clear in the rule that you can't we just played it that way as it made sense).

 

The Terquai command element can be killed without ever activating, no such risk to the recon element unless you are silly enough to try it where it can scatter off the board, and being CQB'd because of a bad drop doesnt count as most of the time you get to CQB back.

 

Hopefully you guys dont think I am being deliberately difficult, but this is something that I do disagree with, not enough to stop playing, and not enough to not play someone in a competitive setting (or practise for such), but enough that I think its worth the discussion.

 

(and a very enjoyable discussion it has been thus far!)

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So to ensure I understand you correctly. You're going to offhand fault a player for using a force as designed?

No, I'm going to offhand fault a player for playing RAW.

I haven't seen anything in the rulebook (a rulebook that is far of being perfectly clear) that says what happens with the totally skydropped helixes. RAW, anything stops you for declaring non-deployable helix with the only purpose of forcing your oponent to deploy first.

Until someone from Spartan confirms that's correct, you may think that's a smart tactic from Dindrenzi's strategist (or Relthozan). I think it's a bug.

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I've never used this mechanic, and always start on the back foot: i thought that that is how it was meant to be played & have adjusted my tactics to suit.

But if the general consensus is that it is a viable option; I guess I'll have to try it  :ph34r:

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...

Until someone from Spartan confirms that's correct, you may think that's a smart tactic from Dindrenzi's strategist (or Relthozan). I think it's a bug.

 

That would be Derek, and I do believe he did confirm it, where is the question.

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The problem is 90% of the questions we're hitting now were brought up a year ago, literally a year ago (Dec 2014-Feb 2015) under vague titles or asked due to the answer to a related question. FINDING the bloody things again for the newer players requires sifting through thousands of posts to find the one official answer. On top of that Derek's original account got wiped due to a glitch so many of his posts from then can't be found. So unless someone knows the exact thread it was in or gets lucky it's nearly impossible to root out. I've looked a bit and will hunt some more. For the moment though lets look at the rules step by step. 

 

 

DEPLOY FORCES

Unless otherwise specified by a scenario or special rule, a Commander’s Deployment Zone extends 8" out from the entire length of the Game Board Edge that they selected. 
 
Commanders should take an Opposed Tactics Roll. The Commander who rolls the highest may choose who deploys their first Helix on the Game Board.
 
1.Commanders should take it in turns to place the contents of entire Helixes on the Game Board. 
2.All Squadrons in a Helix MUST be deployed within the owning Commander’s allocated Deployment Zone unless they are Embarked on another Model or being held off-table as a Sky Drop Asset, or in the case of scenario play, held off-table as Reserves.
3.Squadrons deployed on the battlefield MUST do so in Coherency,with at least one Model in Command Radius of their Commanding Element. 
4.All Models with the Flying Vehicle MAR deploy moving Flat Out, and so should have a Flat Out Game Marker attached to them before the game begins.
 
If Commanders have an unequal number of Helixes, once a Commander has finished placing ALL of their Helixes, the other Commander should place all of their remaining Helixes.

 

 

Ok, so here's what I'm seeing:

 

1.Commanders should take it in turns to place the contents of entire Helixes on the Game Board. 

Pretty simple, place all the models from the helix then pass to the other player

2.All Squadrons in a Helix MUST be deployed within the owning Commander’s allocated Deployment Zone unless they are Embarked on another Model or being held off-table as a Sky Drop Asset, or in the case of scenario play, held off-table as Reserves.

Ok, you have to place ALL the models in that helix within the deployment zone before passing unless those models are held off table due to a MAR or scenario. Seems pretty clear that skydrop models count for part of the deployment, but don't get put within the deployment zone. Helixes like the Din Recon and Field Support contain nothing but models that MUST skydrop. Creates an interesting conundrum, but we'll move on.

3.Squadrons deployed on the battlefield MUST do so in Coherency,with at least one Model in Command Radius of their Commanding Element.

Skydrop command models are off table with their subordinate squadrons, so Coherency doesn't apply.

4.All Models with the Flying Vehicle MAR deploy moving Flat Out, and so should have a Flat Out Game Marker attached to them before the game begins.

Unless you're Aquans this doesn't apply to any models with skydrop, and even then it really doesn't if you're using the skydrop.

 

If Commanders have an unequal number of Helixes, once a Commander has finished placing ALL of their Helixes, the other Commander should place all of their remaining Helixes. (Underline emphasis on "ALL", mine)

Ok, so if player A finishes placing ALL their helixes and player B has more than one helix left then player B gets to finish deploying the rest of their force.

 

So looking at this, we can ignore 3 & 4 as they have no bearing on the conversation. So all we need to look at is 1, 2, and the end note. Lets throw up a theoretical, I'll use my Din build I mentioned earlier and we'll assume you have 1 of each helix in a Kurak force.

  1. I win the roll and get first deployment
  2. I place my Core Helix, pass to you.
  3. You place your Core Helix, pass to me.
  4. Since you say I can't hold my Aerials til after "deploying" my all skydrop helixes I deploy one of the Aerials. Pass
  5. You deploy your Heavy. Pass.
  6. My 2nd Aerial Helix. Pass
  7. Your Recon, Pass.
  8. Deploy Dropsites. Guess your Levi, Assault, Field Support and Aerial get to stay home.

The book is pretty clear that all helixes must be deployed in their entirety. Skydropped models though not placed in the deployment zone are included in that entirety for their helix, they are merely kept off table. You cannot deploy 2 helixes back to back unless the opponent has deployed ALL their helixes. By declaring your opponent's 100% skydrop helixes in limbo you've prevented yourself from deploying any further helixes once their non-skydropping helixes are deployed. The game would automatically move to deploying skydrop markers as it never says all helixes from both players must be deployed before moving to the next step. It's actually a pretty simple logic error created. The rules say that drop squadrons aren't deployed in the deployment zone during the phase, but helixes MUST be deployed in their ENTIRETY  before deployment moves to the next player. Also ALL helixes must be deployed by one side before the other side may deploy more than one helix in a row. An all skydrop helix MUST be deployed it it's ENTIRETY as it is a helix, even if the entirety of models being placed in the deployment zone is 0 just as a Turquai helix places that single flier in the deployment zone and all the Nabi's and portals off table.

 

Deploying skydrop helixes before helixes that place models in the deployment zone is a pretty clearly defined tactic, not some off the wall reference 4 chapters and two books that bends the rules of the game and common sense logic. A ruling from higher up isn't honestly required, I understand some don't like the tactic but it's there and not obfuscated in any way... almost like it was intended.

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Its good to see the things that others might consider gamey.

 

Yes I do think the Terquai helix should count as a deployment vs a non deployed helix, because the key component of that Helix is on the table and under threat from the word go. Especially as in games I have played we work on the assumption that you can only Nexus designate your own factions Sky Drop markers (its not clear in the rule that you can't we just played it that way as it made sense).

 

The Terquai command element can be killed without ever activating, no such risk to the recon element unless you are silly enough to try it where it can scatter off the board, and being CQB'd because of a bad drop doesnt count as most of the time you get to CQB back.

 

Hopefully you guys dont think I am being deliberately difficult, but this is something that I do disagree with, not enough to stop playing, and not enough to not play someone in a competitive setting (or practise for such), but enough that I think its worth the discussion.

 

(and a very enjoyable discussion it has been thus far!)

 

The more I play Dindrenzi the more I realize they suffer from a significant lack of designators, which really does limit their drop capabilities. Anyway, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

 

As for designating other factions sky drop markers, you are right - you can't do that. But you can designate those of your natural allies (page 79 of the electronic rule book), so even if the gunship is destroyed before designating, your other Aquan designators can still zero those markers in. Hopefully that should help.

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Personally I am of the opinion that people chucking their forces directly at me from orbit is a damn fun and cinematic way of playing and I have no problem with it. Let's face it. You know where their units are roughly going to end up as you know where the sky drop markers are. Plus anything that means I don't have to March as far to give my lizards a meal is a positive thing for me.

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If you don't deploy any unit from a Helix, because they're all skydropping, then you aren't doing the step 1

1.Commanders should take it in turns to place the contents of entire Helixes ON THE GAME BOARD.

You aren't placing anything on the game board.

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As MaxToreador points out, Step 2 gives an explicit exception.

 

 

2. All Squadrons in a Helix MUST be deployed within the owning Commander’s allocated Deployment Zone unless they are Embarked on another Model or being held off-table as a Sky Drop asset, or in the case of scenario play, held off-table as Reserves.

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None Dinzi Player and play dinzi most of the time. My Dinzi opponent didn't play like this because we just didn't think it through this far. 

 

I assume having seen him in the thread posting that he will now be playing this crafty card but it seems that we were getting it wrong and Skydrop not dinzi can out deploy you fair and square and imho it now makes the recon helix seem much more of a recon helix they recon you by forcing you to deploy and then land next to you.

 

TBH i don't see it having much of an impact they already hide most of their units off table anyway away from your guns so your own deployment really is in reaction to skydrop markers which are deployed after everything else anyway (might of got that the other way round if so you are still deploying on what ifs)

 

I think this discussion is becoming another lets beat up the dinzi thread where by everyone wants to have skydropping armies. Please lets not I like my slow ass Terrans just the way they are and my opponent to try and hide in orbit and then get smacked with a load of overwatching nukes when he wants to try and pull a fast one. Its what makes each faction interesting instead of some beige my faction can do everything you can but I look like this while your a silly hover tank.

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I have spoken face to face with Spartan Derek, who confirmed that to count as Helix for the deployment purposes as deploying, and therefore passing the deployment order back to the next player, you need to actually deploy at least one model on the table.

 

If the entire Helix is in Sky drop then you cannot use it as a deployment and force your opponent to deploy additional forces before you put models on the table.

 

I appreciate that this is just me saying this and I hope I can get Spartan Derek on the forum to confirm, however I was doing some beta testing with him on Saturday where I got him to clarify this (I am sure another beta tester can confirm that there was such a battle report posted in the beta forums)

 

For those interested... I lost... again... damn him and his knowledge of this game! 

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I also can confirm that it is in truth not the direction I had hoped. We've pinned down a way to clarify it that Derek seems to like and will be added whenever the rules get an update.

RAW it is confirmed that you can delay deployments, RAI you cannot. RAW will be changed to match RAI with the aforementioned update. In a bit of irony... I wrote the wording of the change.

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I was thinking about this with the Dindrenzi Recon helix - I thought thematically this fits well because the are "recon" and hence know the battlefield better and therefore this deployment shenanigans makes sense. 

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