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Balteth

Sky dropped helixes ...

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My apologies if it's already been answered, but do helixes that consist entirely of sky dropped troops count for deployment purposes? Say, for example, I take the RSN assault helix and decide to sky drop all of the units, could I choose that as my first deployed helix and then force my opponent to put down one of their helixes during deployment?

 

Cheers.

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One of the many things that make me happy to play Dindrenzi.  :D

 

Me:*Deploy my Core Helix* "Your turn... and go ahead and deploy your next 4 helices after that."

Opponent:  :o

Opponent, again: :huh:

Opponent yet again: :mellow:

And again: :(

Opponent:  :wacko:  

Me: *Deploys GA Aerial* :D  

Opponent:  :angry:

Me: *Deploy's 2nd GA Aerial* B)

 

 

For those of you wondering: Full Core, Ground Command x2, ***REDACTED*** x2, and GA Aerial x2. Yeah, your guys THINK they outnumber me.

 

LaJ9Kmo.gif

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It is technically how it works, as gitty as it is, you can elect that you are deploying a helix entirely of Sky Drop components, you then state everything in this helix is deploying via Sky drop and thus doesn't actually deploy, and pass turn to next helix deployment. You don't actually deploy sky drop no, but it doesn't say anything about sky drop limitations when it comes to declaring WHAT helix you deploy. You simply Declare Helix, then reveal that helix is entirely sky drop in the actual deployment step, then move on. Welcome to another reason sky drop is viewed as a very powerful tool when you can get an entire helix of it.. lets you massively win out on the deployment war.

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It's a rough start for those facing it, but I don't believe it's game breaking. Bear in mind we still have to get the models on table and often get out activated turn 1 unless we decide to drop most of our force in that turn, if we do many of those squadrons get to play sitting duck till their next activation. So we get to see nearly all of your deployment before we have to counter, annoying advantage? Yes, but not that serious in all.

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It is pretty far from powerful, as if you have that much sky drop off the table, you are going to get seriously out-activated in the first turn. And that can really, really hurt.

So yeh, definitely not game-breaking at all, it's a nice balance for the activation advantage your opponent gets.

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I hope I'm not alone in saying this feels really gamey and not fun at all. Its like old DWars, where you brought 10 recon planes and just waited for your opponent to finish deploying everything, then just counter-deployed.

And for most factions, having an activation advantage on turn 1 is... okay. Not nearly as powerful when most tabletop games rely so heavily on deployment. Personal views, of course.

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But it's only Dindrenzi so obviously just an underpowered tactic that couldn't be blatantly taken advantage of...

Afterall we know how weak skydrop units are.

 

Completely Agree Corehunter. 

 

For me its very gamey, especially given the power of Sky Drop, its immunity to fire before arriving, and how hard Dindrenzi Hover units are to deal with at LR anyway.

 

I get that tactic in a tournament or a competitive game, in a friendly I would hope to never see it, but definately something that should be looked at for the future. Sky Drop is its own advantage, and should mean if the Helix is going to Sky Drop it doesnt count towards deployment of Helixes.

 

Hopefully its only the type of thing that people do in games against each other, and NEVER when newbies are watching because that would be a major turn off. 

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I don't really see the issue. Dindrenzi get the deployment advantage, the opponent gets board control advantage for the first turn, and the ability to focus fire on fewer models for a turn with little threat of reprisal. It's not like the Dindrenzi is 'skipping' a deployment, as those are still point and models that aren't contributing for a turn.

In fact, I've been dismantled piece meal due to the fact I had lots of Sky Drop, and my opponent just took apart what I had, then waited as my Sky Drop's rained in and demolished each of them. :P

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When I asked the question, it wasn't because I was trying to be 'gamey', but rather because so many of the Dindrenzi helixes don't provide the option of having troops deployed in the usual way. If they didn't count as deployments the Dindrenzi would always be out deployed, which seems a bit harsh just because they don't have the option to take enough non sky drop helixes.

 

Plus, having had a few games with Dindrenzi now, I've got to say that their drop capability isn't that powerful - their army has limited designators with limited range when compared to the likes of Relthoza, where every second model seems to have a nexus designator, some with a 30 inch range! Plus their infantry drop pods are easily destroyed (at least more easily than their Relthozan counterparts) by a unit on overwatch, rendering the dropped infantry useless for that turn.

 

Just my limited 2 cents worth.

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What C0rruptd said.

And I'm assuming you don't play 40k Kraggi. :D

SMURF DROP!

 

I used to play it, alpha strike is an alpha strike whatever way you say it works, and it might just be that playing Aquans means I dont actually get that many more units to play with than the Dindrenzi anyway (in my experience) but even our local Dindrenzi player feels this is a bit of a gamey move. 

 

Especially as he consistently drops in his Sky Drop on turn 1, where they prove highly effective. So the perceived Board control is just that perceived. You can bring in Sky Drop assets on turn 1 so you can't tell me that means the opponent has a better board control, especially when the Nyx are still more than capable of taking an objective / crippling a Heavy / Medium tank squadron on the turn they arrive. 

 

If your opponent is flattening your forces then you bring your Sky drop in earlier to provide them more choices to make and you with more choices.

So no, in my experience, and logically I do not see being Gamey in setup as a counter for how 'under powered' being able to Sky drop your units in on ANY turn is. 

 

I do agree that overwatch can allow you to counter those drop pods quite well, but again from my experience (and maybe its the Aquans corrupting me here), if I start firing units on overwatch to deal with 4 Sky Dropping Nyx pods, I dont have a helluva lot left to deal with the actual units on the board.

 

Doing some quick Maths there are actually no easy ways for Aquans to rock up 11 successes vs the Dindrenzi drop pod, basically the El-Shami, Sedna x 2 & Malani can in theory consistently flatten a drop pod when it lands. Best way for the Aquans to deal with them is to Anti-Infantry the Nyx. - Assuming my maths is right.

 

I just don't see the activation count as a challenge, nor do I see the perception of board control as one either... more games more experience I guess, but given that Dindrenzi players consistently come out on top I am not seeing the disadvantage.

 

Sounds like something that some people like to do because it will frustrate opponents who dont know about it, and exasperate those that do.

 

Also Dindrenzi Helixes that can be deployed without Sky Drop:

 

Core

Heavy

Leviathan

Aerial (both Types)

Assault (if taking RSN)

 

Not sure that makes up I dont have the options to do stuff without always Sky dropping it. 

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Oddly enough the other force I play is Aquans. The 3rd most faced foe for me is my own Dindrenzi, literally my own Dindrenzi models. We have a couple of players that due to financial issues haven't been able to get their own force yet and both typically borrow my Din. It's not the easiest game with my Aquans but I still win more often than not. My win/loss ratio is pretty comparable if not identical between the two forces actually. When looking Din in the eye I tend to go the destruction route, as you really can't take them on the objective game unless you can just outnumber them in infantry. Take out the command vehicles and Letos first. Command because #1 best chance to use pinpoint #2 they tend to hold alot of the army's firepower and #3 better chance to get some disorder going. Letos to get rid of the fast 20AD reaction unit. After that take the mediums, Sednas first if possible. Ignore infantry, levis, and the other tough nut the Ground command droppod unless they are an immediate threat. The only objective that you need to care about is your home objective, just road block them from getting in. The force will litterally fall apart infront of you and you'll win on kill TV alone.

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I think I hold my own against Dindrenzi, but in no way does my opponent ever need to go for deployment tricks to make the game fun and winnable for him. Dindrenzi are the more challenging faction for me to face (havent had the pleasure of enough games v Relthozans to know for sure about them).

 

Back to the OP's point I think you can do it RAWR.

 

But to justify it as a way to counter for the Disadvantage the Dindrenzi have because they can elect to Sky Drop everything simply does not make sense.

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But to justify it as a way to counter for the Disadvantage the Dindrenzi have because they can elect to Sky Drop everything simply does not make sense.

Actually, I'm fairly sure everyone was simply pointing out that while the Dindrenzi get the deployment 'advantage' due to it, it's not like there isn't an advantage in it for the opponent. ;)

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my wording let me down then. 

 

I don't see that self same advantage, especially as its only once the Dindrenzi end their activations that the other player actually has any advantage, and a smart player will make sure that the units that need to be hidden are hidden so in Turn 1 the opposition gets a lot of movement which is un-opposed, but with no way of know where the Dindrenzi will arrive, so that actually makes that movement more of a headache.

 

Plenty go games played and seen being played, havent really seen this be an advantage for the opponent, not if you use the Terrain well at least. 

 

So Sky Drop - still crazy good, gives opponent ability to see your deployment first (if they choose to do it that way).

 

As say before, in summary its a valid tactic that you might see at tournaments & competitive games, and in friendly games it probably wont happen if it seriously annoys you (its a friendly game after all).

 

Regardless of the setting though I think its clear that most people agree it is a gamey thing to do to your opponent. 

 

And hopefully something no one does when trying to introduce new people to the game  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:

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As a Vanguard I never do an interactive demo big enough for it to be an issue. Conventions we run "micro forces" (Lights/infantry and mediums only) and shop demos half cores typically. However if we have alot of interested people or a more experienced gamer I'll tweak it. If we have more than we can 1-on-1 demo for we'll pull out the stops by dropping large forces and have an explanatory battle, or for experienced gamers I'll swap out some of the core squadrons for part of another helix. In the larger battles I may touch on elements of the game that some may consider 'gamey', but I cater it to my audience. There are alot of gamers that enjoy a little subterfuge or those turn the tides of battle actions that the 'gamey' abilities provide, others not so much. I'd never purposely turn the game to trouncing someone with the more difficult to handle tactics in a demo though.

 

Personally I don't consider it 'gamey'. Gamey would be if the tactic made no logical, realistic, or lorewise sense. For the Dindrenzi it makes perfect sense that they'd hold as much of their forces as they can back till the last second. Their PF lore is a solid block of surgical strike; as loathe as I am to admit even the bloody Recon helix does fit that. Of the human races the generic scene for each would be: a Terran bureaucrat clearing another platoon to enter the slaughter but giving them each an extra half ration the morning before deployment, a Directorate cog finalizing their superior's arranged downfall before signing the liquidation paperwork, and a grinning Dindrenzi general staring at a screen and holding up one finger telling their subordinates to "wait for it" for what seems like half an hour. I don't see it as 'gamey', just part of the forces given tactics supported by lore. We sit and wait to the exact moment that we think is the perfect time to strike. AKA After the enemy has moved into position. As I've said before though, there are downsides to bringing that much skydrop. The ability may be annoying as only one force at the moment can do it heavily, but it's no where near game breaking or OP.

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..... Dindrenzi general staring at a screen and holding up one finger telling their subordinates to "wait for it" for what seems like half an hour

 

Why do I instantly devolve off topic when I see this and think Barney Stinson must be a dindrenzi :')

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