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sithsquirrel

Are the Relth too OP at the moment ?

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Just throwing it out there to see how the rest of you guys are finding it ?  Our group has Directorate (me :) ) Aquan, Terran, The lizards and of course those bloody spiders. Most games seem to come down to less than 10 planetfall points on around the third turn.....unless its against the spiders ! In which case the second turn is the norm...and not even the end of it. With the point difference generally being around the 30 to 40 point mark for a 5000 point game. Is this the experience elsewhere ? Even our resident "Spiderman" thinks his kit seems a bit over the top and is considering a second force..... Not that he doesn't enjoy crushing us all like bugs...pun intended.

So how is it for others and is it a play balance thing or are we all just **** compared to Spiderman ?

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A lot of people seem to think that the Relthozas are too strong at the moment. Hopefully, every faction will be on the same level after the new ORBATS are released. 

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Relthozas had been too strong since I meet the game.

2 or 3 ORBAT later, this hasn't change.

I'm not very sure why are the people specting something from this one. Relthoza are one of the tougher (if not the toughest), faster, long ranged, stronger and cheaper (if not the cheapest) of the game. They have not weak points.

Do you think that the whole army are gonna become more expensive, softer, weaker, slower or that they are gonna get their range decreased? They are gona be bad in anything (not speaking of being the worse, something like be the slower or short ranged of all army - or both, like the terrans)

The game has to change very much for this.

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my 2 cents is if you only make Cloak work at LR then they would drop down to a level that works. we have been talking about house ruling this for a few months now. if they want to get up close and personal then it become dangerous for them

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or use the same mechanic as Retardant Armour in Dystopian wars. Let it stop the first couple of exploding sixes. Might also be enough to reign them in.

Giving them cloaks only at long range will make them a static gun line army I fear. Or the LR values of all their units should be reduced drastically.

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As a Beta Tester, I can tell you that there is going to be a change that we tested and seemed to help reign in the Relthoza... It's not huge, but it seemed to work, we'll let you guys see when the ORBATs hit ultimately.

 

You can tell us now! 

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I think that Relthoza is the Zenian Long Range army, as Directorate is the short-slow army and Dindrenzi is the fast hit&run army.

I see no problem with them being tougher at longer ranges, and balancing the lossing of Their protective MAR in EF with higher AD pools (I don't mean to increase more their AD, but in oposition with Sorylian, who have more AD in LR than in EF, Relthoza can be weaker but tougher in LR, and stronger but softer in EF).

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For a long range army, they have a lot of fast strike options! Although I can see that with sky drop starting at higher numbers this might be reduced somewhat. Still they remain the ability to alpha strike with a lot of units while maintaining a nasty gun line.

 

I don't mind Relthoza being the long range army, but then something has to be reduced, currently they seem to have it all.

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As cloak is a mechanic out of the rule book it will likely not change. They need to be weaker on the short range AD to give them some kind of weakness. Simlpy droping the range will be a rather lazy fix considering they are the long ranged zenian force.

 

Ralthozan 2505pts

Lev: 20AD 40" 820pts

Heavy: 16AD 30" 18AD 48" 615pts heavy 2 TDs

Core: 16AD 30" 14AD 30" 1070pts 2Heavys 2Meds 6Lights

Sorylian 2625

Lev: 18AD 48" 12AD 40" 800pts

Heavy: 16AD 48" 18AD 40" 720pts heavy 3TDs

Core: 18AD 40" 1105pts 2Heavys 3Meds 5Lights

 

fairly close firepower yet Realthozans are getting 120pts discount for some reason while having tougher units and better defensive MARs. This is more of the problem than their range. A 5pt Increase to the medium and Heavy units would bring them in line with most other Orbats cost wise and would have been simpler to try than a reworking of units at first.

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Also, remember that any changes made to Cloak will also flow through to some of the other factions - the Directorate units that have cloak instead of shields, the Terquai special ability, the Archangel...

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Yes, they would be affected. But cloak gives te feel that is too powerfull. I've faced Directorate the most. I've never killed any trojan, and only the combination of Mk1 (twice) and two full Heimdalls unit firing in CQB and with placed shots taked out one gunship scuadron... one anti-air unit firing twice and the stronger hits of my army firing placed and in close range for killing just one cloaked-flying unit is crazy.

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Cloak is NOT changing. So it's best to close that side of things down now. V1.0 is not the place where such a massive rule will change (as far as I know!)

 

What you guys are experiencing is this:

 

Spiders currently have high AD at LR which they can use to just "place shot" against others and most other races at that range struggle to put MORE than 1 DR on a unit at a time whilst returning units are getting 2DR+ back. So in a Long Range right they are generally better off due to their range AND cloak. To combat this the Beta team have looked at what CAN be changed within the current rules set and in our games, it has worked. Very well.

 

Now all the races "borrow" or feel somewhat like they do in FSA* and this is very intentional as it links the games and makes them feel more from the same universe and in the existing fluff, Spiders honour and value their combat prowess and hunting abilities - NOT long range firepower. In FSA their greatest tricks are to hunt the enemy, minimising incoming firepower to then uncloak and unleash VERY close range weaponry and excellent boarding abilities. Range is probably their biggest bonus at the moment. Once they get in EF range of other races weaponry you can generally kill them quick or neutralise their squads firepower by halfing squadrons (very good tactic may I add but doesn't net any TV) so range is obviously on the big hit list of changes. I can say that much!

* Terrans - slow/tanky/shields/nuclear

* Directorate - corrosive/plasma/higher base armour than terrans/good assault troops

* Dindrenzi - long range/fast/high armour values/no shields

* Aquans - fast/manoeuvrable/crystal tech/decent shields

* Sorylians - good shotgun like close up weaponry with some long range (FSA they do have kinetic fore fixed, not great amounts but still there), excellent assault marines etc. Decent armour and average shields. They are probably a bit more long range in PF than FSA however.

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I understand cloak is not changng in V1 abd I think it is fine as it is.

I think you nailed one of the main issues if the Relthoza with cloak and long range firepower. I would like to see them changed to a more combined arms approach with the large en mediums moving in while they drop in assault troops.

Even the artillery faction ( the sorylians) rely more on a combined arms approach then on their gunlined. This is gine I think because this creates dynamic gameplay instead of static gunlines.

The other thing that needs adjusting, in my opninon, are the points values. Due to their low number count, Relthozan helices are consistantly the cheapest helices available. I think that to set of their durabity fue to high DR and cloak points should go up a bit.

I looking forward to the new orbats, any intell on an ETA?

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Just do not see this helping the massive cost differance in them having the cheapest out of nearly every helix builds.

If anything this will push their cost lower.

Also my terrans play nothing like my fleets.

 

Points are not getting altered just yet I don't think.

 

So what do you do with your Terrans who have the most shields in the game (like PF), average to slow speed (like PF) and average Damage ratings...and short range weapons (Aside from Torpedos).

 

We playing the same game Core? ;-)

 

Not got ETA unfortunately!

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Terran fleets have hard hitting fast smalls, mediums do ranged firesupport and late game cleanup, larges tank and brawl.

This changes a fair bit in planetfall without shunt and the removal or fire support from the most common medium unit and putting it on larges.

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* Terrans - slow/tanky/shields/nuclear

* Directorate - corrosive/plasma/higher base armour than terrans/good assault troops

* Dindrenzi - long range/fast/high armour values/no shields (And Hover!)

* Aquans - fast/manoeuvrable/crystal tech/decent shields (And Hover!)

* Sorylians - good shotgun like close up weaponry with some long range (FSA they do have kinetic fore fixed, not great amounts but still there), excellent assault marines etc. Decent armour and average shields. They are probably a bit more long range in PF than FSA however.

 

I think you must add Hover as an advantage of Aquan and Dindrezi.

 

In my opinion is necessary review the AD and RB of some squadrons as Caramis and Talamis, their AD are too much (18+).

 

I´m not sure about Salamas. At the first time I would think they need reduce AD and DR. However, they never end any battle alive so I´m not sure if their DR should be reduced.

 

Cloak is very important in troops with three or more levels of DR because, usually, Cloak avoid a second hit. This is specially terrible in Relth Vaxiss or Directorate Shade because they are flying troops too. However, in Salamas, I´m not sure.

 

Also Relth have disadvantages as limited artillery, no shields, no hover, no upgrades for infantry or limited MARs (Pinpoint, AA or Scatter). I agree Relth is OP and I think they need a review but not all Relth is broken; Aquan and Dindrezi are not too far of Relth.

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I'm notsaying change anything to match fleets becouse this is ground combat. A completely different arena from space so why mirror tactics? As I said earlier a 5pt increase to their meds and heavys would atleast start to bring some of their helixes inline cost wise with other factions without drastically changing how units play.

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I'm notsaying change anything to match fleets becouse this is ground combat. A completely different arena from space so why mirror tactics? As I said earlier a 5pt increase to their meds and heavys would atleast start to bring some of their helixes inline cost wise with other factions without drastically changing how units play.

 

This isn't about "mirroring" tactics completely - it's about making all races in both games feel together and almost as one in SOME aspects. Why? Because it's easier for people to buy in and play the fleets and races together they love if they can recognise how their play style might be. It doesn't mean that need to play exactly the same but sticking to the fluff is important.

 

A lot of ground/space games seem to do the same as it's simply consistent and makes identifying races much easier for gamers.

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