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Specky

Rear Eschelon Question

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Hi all, quick one about rear echelon:

"A Model with the Rear Echelon MAR is always considered to have

Activated once it is deployed."

Obviously this means that the model could not initiate its own CQB should it perhaps skydrop in range of a valid target.

Because it counts as activated, does this mean that you immediately jump across to the next activation, be that the troops inside due to assault vehicle or the opposition model? Does this mean that an opposing model is not able to initiate CQB or perform overwatch against a Rear Echelon model?

Obviously this restriction would not apply to any troops that pile out. They do not have rear echelon.

For example, pod of Nyx come flying out of the sky and lands within 4" of an enemy on overwatch. Because of rear echelon, the pod cannot target the enemy or vice versa. Step 2 the Nyx jump out, immediately the overwatch enemy shoots up the infantry and then game behaves as normal.

Is this correct?

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No, it does not matter when it comes to Overwatch, Overwatch interupts the usual sequence of events and allows you to take an out of sequence MO firing against a model that completes a movement within it's LoS. Deploying by Skydrop counts for this so you may interupt it and attempt to shoot it regardless of the Rear Echelon MAR, if you choose that is. Overwatch doesn't have to be done upon the first unit to come within LoS.

 

As for the CQB.. I'm pretty sure you can still get to CQB the thing just as normal, the Rear Echelon MAR is there so that in FURTHER activations it doesn't continue to soak an activation and essentially become a waste of space in your activation cycle. It's initial deployment should go as normal, being you sky drop, sky drop counts as it's movement, does anything wish to Overwatch the pod once i'd final landing spot has been determined? If no then move on to CQB, does it or anything within 4" wish to initiate CQB if it chooses not to? Resolve that then move on to next activation, whatever that maybe, the Nyx choosing to use assault vehicle and pile out of it or hand over to the opponent's next activation.

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On 12/15/2015 at 8:07 AM, Commander Drakere said:

...As for the CQB.. I'm pretty sure you can still get to CQB the thing just as normal, the Rear Echelon MAR is there so that in FURTHER activations it doesn't continue to soak an activation and essentially become a waste of space in your activation cycle. It's initial deployment should go as normal, being you sky drop, sky drop counts as it's movement, does anything wish to Overwatch the pod once i'd final landing spot has been determined? If no then move on to CQB, does it or anything within 4" wish to initiate CQB if it chooses not to? Resolve that then move on to next activation, whatever that maybe, the Nyx choosing to use assault vehicle and pile out of it or hand over to the opponent's next activation.

By my reading of the rules (sorry about thread necromancy), the pod coming down can not choose to initiate CQB. If it counts as activated once it deploys, then it can't do anything at all, and it's CQB stat is only for reaction if somebody else initiates. Most drop pods and similar models don't have much of a CQB stat and are unlikely to do much damage that way, but there is a more important point. If the pod comes down within CQB range of more than one enemy unit, say an enemy light tank and an enemy leviathan, it would choose to engage the light tank in CQB because it is unlikely to take damage doing so. However, if it can't choose to initiate CQB, then the leviathan can choose to initiate CQB with it, and the pod could even be destroyed! 

Is that the correct interpretation here? 

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Page 90:
"Any Squadron that ends its Movement Segment with one or more of its Models within 4" of an enemy may elect to fire their CQB Weapons during the CQB Segment as part of a CQB Engagement. HOWEVER should the Squadron decline to engage in CQB, a single enemy Squadron within 4" of the active Squadron has the option to call a CQB Engagement themselves against the Active Squadron."

Therefore, if a unit ends up within 4" of a rear escelon model, and does not initiate CQB, that model, eg a drop pod, can initiate CQB.

The drop pod counts its landing as a movement action, then can initate CQB as normal (as per your description). The active player always has the initiative when choosing who to CQB. The rear escelon MAR comes into effect after that turn (you cant activate an already activated unit). 

TLDR: - Specky is wrong, Drakere is correct

hope that helps

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I guess the problem comes with how exactly "deploy" is defined. Since you can't activate an activated unit, and a Rear Echelon model counts as activated once it has deployed, exactly when it counts as being deployed matters. If it counts as deployed at the end of its movement segment, which I think should be the case, then it can't initiate CQB because it counts as activated, and the opponent can initiate with his choice of nearby units. If the Rear Echelon unit counts as deployed at the end of the turn or activation during which it skydrops in (something for which I don't see any RAW justification), then it can choose which unit to CQB. 

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17 hours ago, knightperson said:

you can't activate an activated unit

And that is the point. You activate the unit to sky drop it in. You cannot activate a unit that is already active.

Therefore you deploy, CQB, Shoot as normal. ans subsequent turns, you may not activate the unit, as it "remains active" due to rear echelon...

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Again, that only works if you define "deploy" as the full activation process (movement, CQB, and main ordinance) rather than just movement. I have a hard time with that definition based on the current wording. When you deploy on the tabletop at the beginning of the game, you place the model and that's it. It doesn't get to initiate CQB (not that there can be anything within CQB range, of course), declare Remain Stationary or Overwatch, or anything else; It just gets placed on the table and then deployment ends. Why would it be any different when it "deploys" from sky drop? 

I have a request in to a friend who's at GenCon and will be working directly with the Spartans themselves, so we'll see if he can get us a definitive answer. 

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Except you have missed the excerpt about deploying via skydrop on page 80:

"Models being deployed into combat via Sky Drop count as making a Remain Stationary Movement Action during their activation"

It does't just get placed on the board, it gets a full activation, otherwise all models that deploy via skydrop would be extremely vulnerable.

 

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I did miss that, but I'm not convinced it matters to a Rear Echelon unit. A turret or something, yeah it definitely gets a full action. A drop pod with RE might not. 

On 8/5/2016 at 6:57 AM, Zeph said:

It does't just get placed on the board, it gets a full activation, otherwise all models that deploy via skydrop would be extremely vulnerable.

They certainly would be, which is why I really want that to be true! Unfortunately, I'm not convinced yet that that's the case with RE models . 

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Well why do you think a rear echelon turret would be different to a rear echelon drop pod? There is no precedent for models to be treated differently without a difference in MARs. 

If a turret can be placed, CQB and then Shoot. Or a Flyer be Placed, CQB and shoot. Why cant a drop pod be placed CQB and NOT shoot?

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6 hours ago, Zeph said:

Well why do you think a rear echelon turret would be different to a rear echelon drop pod? There is no precedent for models to be treated differently without a difference in MARs. 

If a turret can be placed, CQB and then Shoot. Or a Flyer be Placed, CQB and shoot. Why cant a drop pod be placed CQB and NOT shoot?

Show me a turret or flyer that actually has Rear Echelon, and I will consider answering that question! There is a difference in MARs: the presence or absence of Rear Echelon, which is not the same thing as Skydrop Asset. Turrets and command pods have Skydrop Asset BUT NOT Rear Echelon. Drop pods and the Aquan Votari Crystals have Skydrop Asset AND Rear Echelon.Those units that have Skydrop Asset, Rear Echelon, and a CQB stat (a combination specific to drop pods as far as I know) are the ones in question. 

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The Rear Echelon MAR is there so that FURTHER activations are not wasted by a useless units. 

Granted: it could use clarification in an FAQ however spartan haven't really been active ont their IPs other than Halo ATM so I wouldn't hold your breath. This is how it has been played and tested since day 1. I would usually get one of the other vanguards to back me up, but the forums are following Spartans lead and staying quiet atm. But if you want here is a link to a couple of older threads where it was discussed: 

Just trying to help, do with it what you will...

 

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That second thread helps quite a bit, actually. It didn't show up in my prior art search, probably because I was mostly searching for Rear Echelon rather than Skydrop or CQB. I'd prefer to have something definitive from SG themselves, or an updated phrasing of the rule, but with Halo Ground taking up all their time I don't expect to see that anytime this year. 

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