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Captain Covenant

The Elephant(s) in the room

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The models are there. Collecting dust on our shelves, perhaps, or merely on display. Almost everyone has models that go mostly unused. I wanted to know: what are your elephants on the shelf, and why? Which models do you actively avoid using?

 

My elephants are the Daedalus and Icarus. Mostly because there are much better options with much greater symmetry in my fleet.

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Welp, I agree with the Daedalus, the epi is the same model with a carrier on it. Why take the Daedalus? Maybe make its guns more appealing by upping the AD? Teleporting gen in the sky?? Combat coordinator??? Something to help it effect the table top like the epi does, then I would get to choose what I want and need for the fleet at that time.

Icarus, too expensive for the trade mark 5ad e turret. 80 points?? If I'm playing land I'd take a skorp for the same price and I get piercing. On naval 20 points more we have a fresnal with double the AD. I don't think it needs better guns but maybe a points reduction? It only has one gun....

My elephant is truly the elephant... The Euclid...

Ohhhh man where do I start. Not going to say it's epensive because its a dread, it should be expensive. But i need to be shown why it is. 3 attacks with mediocre power for each. The entire ship houses the PA and energy coils and it's barely strong then a cruiser that's probably a 1/10 it's size?? One ET at 9... That won't bother larges with any sort of defenses like a shield or DR/CR bump. The rockets are meh at best. The upgrades are descent. I like the coordinators but it just dies too fast. The redoubtable PA just isn't strong enough to suffer even one point in AD loss. Much less the pound it will take trying to get the coordinator in range. Carrier 9 is good. But the already bleh carrier got a 2nd hand nerf when the drone feed back came into effect. Out once expensive carriers no longer have a reason to be so expensive. Give me a proper points cost for this beast of a model or give me proper AD or survivabity and then we will talk about puting him back in the fleet box to go with me to the store.

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I've stopped taking any of our large/massive flyers. They're just not that good anymore. Daedalus isn't very useful- 2x mines for 150 points is pointless when we have a specialist to do it. The Epicurus has been hit with the nerf bat repeatedly and is now more expensive than the battleship, and the Epicurus Euclid is useless at 300 points. Drone Launcher is massively overcosted.

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I still use everything. I play mostly friendly games and like to try out different lists/models. And winning with models nobody uses can be very satisfying. If I have to name some models which have seen less table action, it will probably be the Rhine (PE) and the Pericles. They are very vulnerable. Also worth mentioning, in our club we seldom play with dreadnoughts.

I have to agree that CoA carriers have been beaten too much with the nerf bat.

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I think sebinko means Euclid at 300.

As for the Rhine, I kinda like it, it's cheap and has a nice tesla bombard to compliment the fleet.

My group is very competitive with min/max Prussians Brits (and friends) French fleets so if I were to take subpar units I would be promptly punished in game for it making it a very almost worthless game since the only thing I come to the conclusion of is that model is too lack luster for this.

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How do you seldom play with dreadnoughts with the CoA? (slightly facetious question, but we do seem a little overloaded with them).

 

I often try to include models I rarely use (contradiction in terms! yay!) such as time orbs (fleet dependent) , hippasus (fleet dependent), capeks (not terribly effective and very overcosted... felt like a knee-jerk nerf since the Capek had recently become nearly auto-include), ptolemys (fun but again, depends on the rest of the fleet). Not necessarily bad models, but not my common choices.

There are some models I never use (or only rarely, so as to justify owning them and making sure my opinions of them are in fact true).

This list is:

 

Daedalus:

Lacklustre on its own and outshined by the Epicurus... which considering the Epicurus is no longer all that good...

Problem - It lacks punch, a linked turret spread of 14/11/8/5 is not a threat to much, especially when it suffers damage. The broadside is ok, but only as a supplementary weapon.

Positives - Good survivability, cool looking model (well, I like it anyway)

My solution - Either specialise the Daedalus (we do like specialists afterall) into either an assault large (more AP, terror tactics, advance engines, lower cost) or a support ship (something else we like!) with some interesting generator options (time flow gets my vote! But some offensive gens with a node launcher would be excellent too! Target painter is a bit obvious and would compete with the Hyperbius but could also work.) or combat coordinators. Or maybe go full board control with mines (boost speed a lot, give it an actually useful mine control generator, give it more mines. Oh, and make it able to go stratospheric! We have the technology afterall!)

 

Euclid:

This is a very very sad case. I wonder how much its old reputation has affected its current state.

Problems - Drone nerfs and PA nerf have left it fairly weak offensively. Two rocket batteries are very very mediocre. Stupidly low survivability for its cost and strategic value. Upgrades are nice options but mean a fully upgraded Euclid is approaching the 400 points mark... Compare with Coeus and weep... Especially when you see how similar they are.

Positives - Our only flying PA, which even nerfed is still decent at getting rid of pesky aerial smalls and occasional mediums. Has lots of options. erm... yeah, I am really short of positives here.

My solution - Immediate and massive points drop. Base level, the Euclid is barely worth 220 points in my opinion. Maybe even less. Now we start piling on the options! Carrier 9 (20 points) carrier 12 (45 points) Additional rocket batteries (up to total of 4, 20 points each) some actually useful generators (it is the only model that can PA and generate at the same time, so lets actually make this a worthwhile ability -.-) Target painter, time flow, dilation, disruption, shield (3) (choose up to 2, 20 points each) an a host of combat coordinators for our drones (big fuel tanks, acrobatic pilots, vertical dive, advance engines (a new thought for them, but could be nice!) 10 points each). This way, you can make the Euclid into a real drone powerhouse with massive support capabilities. Or you could have a cheap as chips nearly-dread with an aerial PA and a few drones. It might compete with the Epicurus a bit though. (fun fact, fully upgraded this would cost 420 points!)

 

Pericles:

A recent addition to my list of no-gos. I like the Pericles, I like the model and I like that it is less survivable. I like its turret spreads. I like it a lot, but it is a massive massive achilles heel in any fleet without giving that fleet much useful stuff.

Problems - Weak defences, which would not be a problem but it also has very high points cost. And a whopping strategic value! Add in the drone nerf and it is just pathetic.

Positives - Nice weaponry for a support large, the only 9/7/6/4 turret spread we have (would it really be so terrible if we had that turret spread as standard? I mean, we have currently have KoB turrets without redoubtable... and redoubtable is all that makes the KoB turrets any good! That upgrade to all our units would really help make primary turrets a fair alternative to e-turrets for units like the Cleomedes and Icarus.

My solution - Points drop. And strategic value drop. Considering its frailty and the *oh god I keep mentioning it in this post* drone nerf, I could see a points drop to 150 with strategic value 50.  This would also make it a viable choice vs the Kepler, since you would get 9 drones for a bit cheaper than the 2 Keplers.

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I think every carrier we have should get a points drop with the new drone nerf. Can't really drone spam effectiy so building a fleet around it is too unreliable to do. With a pouts reduction it shouldn't cause too much of a power shift.

I like what your thinking with the Euclid, actually I love it :P being able to customize it the way we need for a specific fleet. Very cool

I use the TDO pretty often, for teleporting and covering my fleet. Something I'd do would be to move the TDO up and throw out the 3 1/2 AD fields (TDO and dilation) and bring up something big like our dread supported by zenos and corvets and ram it down my opponents throat :)

I thinks the entire air game needs to be changed. They are are just too vulnerable up there to really put important assets like the epi up there. Maybe another roll for cloud terrain maybe??

Pericles needs a DR bump for sure. Maybe with a point reduction and an option for carrier 12? I don't really have an issue with the guns, I usually take E turrets and leave it in the back since the DR sucks lol.

Capeks had potential when they were 60ish points but at 70 points.... Too expensive to send into rb 2 to do anything. Same thing wih the Icarus actually 80 points for expensive E turrets that are just out done by platos and Fresnals. So your trading firepower for the ability to shoot everything and get shot at. Which finding targets wih Fresnals isn't hard if you've been playing the game for a descent amount of time.

Ptomely I can say I've never used. I don't like mine layers.... Most units can dodge them if they move faster then 6 inches. Just don't ever see them getting the points back in any way. Want to kill smalls?? Platos do it just fine from RB 4

Diogenes I've stopped taking since the AD reduction to 8 linking, when I think it was 10 with 4 across the board. I just prefer the flexibility of the corvets better then the frigates since I can hid them in the flank deployment and maybe board something to get their points back.

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In a faction full of specialists and so many good medium choices, my cleomedes don't see much use (even though they're in a good state).

I've got all (new) boxes available, which means the only model I'm missing is the Daedalus which isn't included in those boxes. Besides it's awesome looks I'm not really missing out, as several others before me have pointed out.

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I've been trying out the Cleomedes and I actually really like them. I think I've worked out their niche- they're better with standard gunnery, sneaking up wavelurked on a flank. They work well in conjunction with a fleet that includes Zenos, either as a Zeno squadron or the escorted lone Zeno specialist squadron. They do have a specific purpose, it's just not as instantly obvious as it is with our other mediums. They did sterling work against a Russian fleet, taking out a full squadron of medium submarines, corvettes and then blowing away most of the HP on a fleet carrier.

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My Cleos usually move up a flank, they're able to soak a lot of firepower while lurking. While not putting out an extraordinary amount of AD they very often end up holding up most things deployed against them, if they get close they can even initiate a boarding action with some success.

I don't think I've ever been disappointed by their performance yet.

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I also really like the Cleomedes and as such found my Plato's have been mothballed apart from against my son (8 yo with americans) due to only playing 750pts max. 

They have never seen the light of day at my club though. Notthat they are bad just prefer the cleo's

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For myself I have quite a few key ones that almost never see the table:

Arronax - just pointless in naval battles

Diophantus - major disappointment, it soaks fire but can't dish any back and weak as a carrier.

Pericles - as described by others, way too many points/SV and too soft.

Diogenes - just come out to have a go v rarely as they rarely do anything.

Capeks - too pricey esp as no longer 2 rb4 weapons and not enough flyers in my meta.

Hyperbius - only really there for its target painter

Theres many aerial units I don't own simply because they'd never see the table. In fact the only aerials I've been able to make good use of are the Ptolemys.

Still never seen anyone using escorts, hence I don't own any Galen either.

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personally, I find that the Pericles, Diogenes and Hyperbius all are excellent models in the right situation... I field them gladly!

Agree on the Diophantus/Arronax/Euclid/Daedalus though, and add my own Icarus. They rarely justify being taken.

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You voluntarily field the pericles?? And like it???

I so so want to like it, I like the model  (which is not always a popular one) and I often want a second large... but it is such a stupidly high priced liability I cannot risk it in any of my lists.

Diogenes I find useful, a capable sniper frigate that has strong broadsides for anything that gets too close. I like these.

Hyperbius is a good energy platform with nice supporting abilities. I like these.

But pericles...

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In all fairness I have never used a pericles I don't own one.

I mostly play between 750 and 1000 pts

So only use one large.

I regularly field my Hippasus and like it.

I am currently looking to get a second

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