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Sebenko

Dreadnought Robots- How to bring one down?

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If there was one definite adjustment that needs to be done across the whole of the dreadbot range, it's to make it able to be prized if it's the Commodore's vessel. this will at least remedy their biggest advantage in small games.

Any other changes (some of which are being worked on at the moment) need to be tested out, with reports to support those changes.

I agree.......or simply a dreadbot model specific rule that commodores cannot ride on one.....since robots are not prize-able has been a pretty universal thing. (It can be fluffy too! Nations could realize that such a massive target on the front line in battle would be too great a risk to also put key commanders there......poof, justification.)

James, is it your and Derek's opinion that some of these dreadbots do not render several objectives rather unbalanced in a 1000 point game? Specifically 50+all large/massive, 50+commodore, and 70%?

I hear you on reports but it is tough. I am getting zero interest from my usual opponents to bother. Do you have battle report data I can use,to try to convince other players these are well balanced? Maybe this report data request/need goes both ways eh?

Honestly among my friends frustration with this perception is causing me to get fewer games in....very sad for me and my enormous investment in my collection of DW models.

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I would like a rule stating that you cannot spend more than 30% MFV on any single model. I have no experience with the dreadbots but have played several games of 1000 points against dreadnoughts and I find it enerving that, 50% of the time, I have to kill that one model to fulfil my objective (not that it's impossible, but it is so much harder than the other objectives and feels a little unfair). If such a rule existed, I could always opt for the "kill 70% MFV" objective which at least allows me to deal with just the other stuff.

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Right, now that I have time:

 

Scenario: Ironclad Sturginium Vein Scenario, 1000pts Naval core.

 

Lists:

Tim's Empire of the Blazing Sun

1x Ayakashi w/ Rocket Fists + 3x Kitsune

1x Raijin + 3x Kitsune

1x Yurei

3x Yurgi

 

My Covenant of Antarctica

1x Prometheus w/ Dilation Field Generator

2x Kepler Drone Launchers

3x Cleomedes Cruisers

5x Thales Corvettes

1x Rho Aerial Squadron (1x Ptolemy, 3x Alea), Advance Deployment

 

Table: 6'x4', with a ring of island surrounding the objectives

 

Deployment:

Rho Squadron deploys on my near objective

Yurei deploys forward on the centre left, near my objective

On the left flank (my near objective):

Cleomedes + Prometheus

Ayakashi

On the right flank (far objective):

Raijin

Thales Corvettes

Centre:

Yurgi Destroyers

Kepler Drone Launchers

 

Turn One

Rho Squadron deploys mines around the objective

Dreadnought and Cruisers open fire on escorts and destroyers to reduce the inevitable massive rocket barrage. The Prometheus places its Dilation template to cover itself from the Ayakashi. Some shooting at the Yurei, to no effect.

Ayakashi moves up and splits rockets between a Cruiser and Ptolemy, critting both

Two Corvettes killed by Raijin and Destroyers

Bomber SAS damages the Yurei, the second bomber squadron being shot down by fighters

 

Turn Two

Rho drops more mines and places AP on near objective

Prometheus and Cleomedes open up on Ayakashi at RB2, with secondary weapons targeting Yurei and escorts. Total: One escort killed, one damage to dreadbot.

Prometheus attempts to board Yurei, as it's the only EotBS model with non-robot AP on this flank, Sabotages the Yurei, but loses all but 1AP. Cleomedes dump their AP on the objective.

Ayakashi activates, killing an Alea and the damaged Cruiser with a 36 hit rocket attack.

Yurei kills the Ptolemy and puts a mass of flame and corrosion tokens on a second cruiser. End of turn leaves the second cruiser on 1HP

Raijin and destroyers finish off Corvettes and destroy one Kepler.

Various SAS engagements. Highlights include a critical hit by fighters on the Raijin, and two fighter squadrons wiping each other out. Finally get enough drones for a relaunch.

 

Turn Three

Rho continues to spew mines.

Second Kepler is crit by the Destroyers and takes a Chaos & Disarray.

Dreadnought kills the remaining destroyers and escorts near the Raijin using PA and broadsides. The other broadside and full turret barrage aims at the Ayakashi and causes... a single point of damage.

Ayakashi boards the Prometheus, inflicting 4HP of damage

Raijin crits the Kepler again and gets another Chaos & Disarray, and damages the Prometheus.

 

Turn Four

Kepler dies.

Dreadbot clears minefield by walking into it, taking a total of one HP damage, and crits the DN.

Yurei and Ayakashi finish off the cruiser squadron.

Prometheus takes another crit.

Two Aleas inexplicably survive.

 

Total Drone relaunched: 0

Objective Points: 1 Each

Points claimed: 270

Points lost: 683

 

Overall, it was nigh impossible to stop any model in the list, and claiming any amount of points was very difficult, as it meant killing either the Yurei or Ayakashi, both of which were all-or-nothing targets.

I did under-deploy on the right flank, and misused my corvettes, but that doesn't really explain the left flank, which was a case of two models moving forward and ignoring any attempts of mine to slow them down, let alone stop them.

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Thanks for the report, even more so for writing down a obiously rather frustrating gaming experience. Just noting that besides the missing naval large, the list is at 53.5% non core...

... I'll take a closer look at some points later on and this actually gave me a couple of ideas to follow for possible fixes...

 

R

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This list is indeed illegal by at least two points ;)

 

And again, I don't think the dreadbot is really the problem here. Like the last time, the problem is your friend's list, which is illegal and moreover contains tons of tough units (Dreadbot, Raijin, Yurei, ...).

Try to play against a more normal/classic list containing a dreadbot and you'll have a way better idea of the situation.

 

But I agree with Nazduruk_Bugzappa: making the Dreadbots unable to be the "commodore's house" could be a simple and elegant solution.

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normal/ classic lists tend not to work in tournaments though....which i think was Sebs main worry

 

I'm pretty sure the large majority of players don't care about tournaments and just wanna do games at home or at their club, with friends. And with the "way of playing", Dreadbots aren't unbalanced at all.

 

Anyway, dreadbots or not, Dystopian Wars is by no way made to be used in tournaments. If one wants a balanced and competitive game, he should rather play chess ;) Or Warmachine, to keep with minis. 

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perhaps....but you cant ignore that fact that regular tournaments happen....just because its balanced for fun games, certainly doesnt make it balanced in tournaments

sorry, but dystopian wars is by far a better game for tournaments than most, there isnt any other major naval game out there, to be fair, im happy travling the country testing my skill against other like minded people...lve met some good players through it...if your happy playing with shadow puppets at home , fine, but dont tarnish the tournament scene because you feel its unimportant

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I'm pretty sure the large majority of players don't care about tournaments and just wanna do games at home or at their club, with friends. And with the "way of playing", Dreadbots aren't unbalanced at all.

 

Anyway, dreadbots or not, Dystopian Wars is by no way made to be used in tournaments. If one wants a balanced and competitive game, he should rather play chess ;) Or Warmachine, to keep with minis. 

 

Some of us would like Dystopian Wars to be as balanced as possible. If you don't care about balance, go play Age of Sigmar, Comrade.

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Mind you I do not want perfect balance either...if you want perfect balance play chess.

 

I do not play tournaments at all....yet I would like the most highly offending of these things settled down just a bit, or a better understanding of what I am missing so I can explain it properly to others how balanced these are really.

 

I am less concerned about these things in a 1500+ point game as well. However, if you are playing by the rules as written, (no house rules), at 1,000 points, (which is common), then these dreadbots are problematic. The simple fact is that by placing your commodore on some of these things, you eliminate a lot of risk out of about half the possible objective cards your opponent might draw. It appears to be an absolute and clear advantage as compared to any list which does not mirror the strategy.....ergo not good/fun/balanced.

 

I want DW to be as much fun as possible. Is the game more fun with the current dreadbot stat lines, or would it be more fun if some were adjusted a bit? That is really my only focus. I also happen to believe that more balanced will also mean more fun, and more fun will mean more sales....which will result in more players and DW games played....which is the end result that I hope to benefit from.

 

No player, casual or otherwise, wants to be at a dis-advantage just because he does not choose to buy a dreadbot. Every time a player feels this way, and has reason to, it hurts Spartans business. (This is not just about dreadbots, it is about how the loyal player base relates to the game, and in turn how that impacts the business.)

 

I use for an example the Zhanmadao. Prior to a little bit of nerfing, everyone was up in arms about how overly powerful it was....and it was true. The Chinese were my second faction in DW, and the Zhan was too good. Now I may not agree 100% with the details of the nerf, but action was necessary to keep the game fun/balanced. It is not fun when you feel like you need to avoid fielding your Zhan because of all the whining that will happen, or you want to avoid abusing the advantage....post nerf the model is still quite strong, but easier to destroy and more balanced.

 

Decent balance, with no huge advantage based on new model releases, is I believe a big part of the path to more fun and more players involved. Which in turn is the path to more sales. That is the mantra, if I could influence Spartan on a philosophical path to follow (in terms of nuts-and bolts stat design).

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Some of us would like Dystopian Wars to be as balanced as possible. If you don't care about balance, go play Age of Sigmar, Comrade.

 

And then you ask me to be constructive? You should put your own house in order before requiring others to do so.

A game like Dystopian Wars cannot be used in a competitive way, that's it! There are so many parameters and randomness that it is impossible to achieve perfect balance, or even get close to it. If you can't get that, there nothing I can do for you. Go play chess, you'll get the perfect balance you absolutely want. Whine less, play more.

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And then you ask me to be constructive? You should put your own house in order before requiring others to do so.

A game like Dystopian Wars cannot be used in a competitive way, that's it! There are so many parameters and randomness that it is impossible to achieve perfect balance, or even get close to it. If you can't get that, there nothing I can do for you. Go play chess, you'll get the perfect balance you absolutely want. Whine less, play more.

I cant work out what your going on about....so according to you chess is the only balanced game there is. Seb has raised a good concern which alot of people feel strongly about, you seem to be stuck in the mindset that in your "fluffy like a kitten" games that these are fine......Right sure, and im the queen of persia.

Back under your rock, troll!!!

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Its a false dichotomy- a game that is well balanced makes for fun casual games just as much as it makes for fun competitive games.

Hell, in many ways it makes casual games even MORE reasonable and fun, because if the points are properly balanced it matters alot less what you take.

Thinking that casual and not rules-tight and point-balanced were somehow synonymous is why GWs stock prices are falling.

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I want to see one of each dreadbot vs an equal number of points in invaders.

I think the dreadbots will win, and thats about all I need to know about their balance.

 

That doesn't sound all that far fetched to me. No one around here plays Invaders, so I have no experience with them beyond the boogeyman "Hardmode scenario faction". Which, when I think about it, seems to be the slot the dreadbots should be in, too- scenario models, brought out for special events. As a standard model in the ORBAT... yeah, we can see what my opinion there is.

 

I cant work out what your going on about....so according to you chess is the only balanced game there is. Seb has raised a good concern which alot of people feel strongly about, you seem to be stuck in the mindset that in your "fluffy like a kitten" games that these are fine......Right sure, and im the queen of persia.

Back under your rock, troll!!!

 

He took severe exception to being called 'mate' once, I think he's still grumpy with me.

 

And then you ask me to be constructive? You should put your own house in order before requiring others to do so.

A game like Dystopian Wars cannot be used in a competitive way, that's it! There are so many parameters and randomness that it is impossible to achieve perfect balance, or even get close to it. If you can't get that, there nothing I can do for you. Go play chess, you'll get the perfect balance you absolutely want. Whine less, play more.

 

Sure thing, pal.

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Good question :P

I am too tired for a proper report, so will type one up tomorrow.

Short version:

My 1500 points of CoA with a Coeus went up against 1500 points of prussians. The Coeus was plinked to death by an Elbe and a Blucher over the course of 3 turns.

My thoughts on the Coeus are that it is a huge amount of points that severely impacted my fleet building. It was a dreadnought tough and very flexible model (360 degree move with a monster PA.... yay! :D) but its impact on the game was not as great as a Prometheus would have done.... except for one shot, where my opponent had neatly lined up 2 Haval medium carriers, a husar gunship and 4 arminius frigates in a nice neat line. That did not end well for them.

The way I used it, I did not manage to robot board anything and I felt the lack of large/massive hunting firepower that a Prometheus could have brought.

More thoughts to follow tomorrow, along with details.

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Hmm, either the CoA one is less powerful than the EotBS one (possible, since it can't chuck out 23/23/23 Incendiary, plus what escorts add to that, and move 9") or they get more manageable at higher points levels. If the former, then EotBS OP etc. etc.. If the latter, then it lends more weight to a restriction on including them in games smaller than 1500.

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I cant work out what your going on about....so according to you chess is the only balanced game there is. Seb has raised a good concern which alot of people feel strongly about, you seem to be stuck in the mindset that in your "fluffy like a kitten" games that these are fine......Right sure, and im the queen of persia.

Back under your rock, troll!!!

 

All hail the queen then.

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I note of all the battle reports I have seen involving these currently released three, the only one that  is generating issues is the EOTBS one in 1000 point games.

 

For example, I had a brief set of reports from Germany  ( 1000 point armoured tournament) where a force with the Prussian one finished last- not an indication that it is overpowered!

 

To me, that would indicate that the EOTBS one wants some tweaking, not the whole idea is totally unbalanced!

 

 

 

In general, I would Informally recommend they are not used in games below about 1500, unless you arrange this with you opponent in advance,or are playing a scenario* revolving around the dreadbot.However, this is not a formal rule.

 

If people provide lots of battle reports( yes, I know I sound like a broken record on this) showing they're fine at 1500, but become rather less fun to face at 1000 points, that would go a very long way towards convincing us to put such a rule in!

 

 

James

 

 

* I suppose I better write such a scenario in my scenario thread! Incidentally, If you've tried some of those scenarios, you may have noticed that single expensive units, be it dreadbots, dreadnaughts or 350 point gunship with attachment units, although destructive, are often not much use at accomplishing the mission...

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The CoA has it particularly hard against the dreadbots, as they have a hard time getting the high number of AD together to hurt the bots.

Most other nations are either able to throw the necessary number of dice at them to get a crit or are able to subject them to enough conditions by piercing ammo, incendiary, tesla, etc.

 

I'd say EotB Dreadbot vs CoA is one of the worst matchups.

The EotB can very well protect the bot by giving it escorts and the CoA has very low AA numbers which make them vulnerable against rockets.

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