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Fedora71

The Metzger

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We all love the old girl but I think she needs some new stats to make her useful again. As it stands mine (I have 5 (long story)) just collect dust. I'd appreciate the ability to, like with the hochmeister, choose a load out suited to needs of the list. Make it in short a smaller version of the dreadbot we so love. Personally I'd like to be able to swap out the rb2 limited tesla for a primary gun making a more fire support friendly version as well as keeping the speerschlueder.

 

That's just me though and I'm wanting to play the old mech again and use her marine assault and all terrain nature for something other than being a target to occasionally hunt the FSA fleet carriers I so often face. Does anyone have any other ideas to make it playable again?

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Metzger is fine as is, I believe. I think Spartan missed a trick when they did not keep the Ausf-A version of the Metzger in the list, but that's ancient history now.

The hochmeister was a very unnecessary addition to the fleet. And from what I've seen, a lot of the community is completely against them, and would have prefered more alliance nations being released.

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The hochmeister was a very unnecessary addition to the fleet. And from what I've seen, a lot of the community is completely against them, and would have prefered more alliance nations being released.

 

Wich addition to DW was really necessary in the last years?

SG wanted DN class robots and released them. IMHO that is a viable decision. I also don't agree that "a lot of the community" is against them. Some are. Like allways the haters are the louder and more "visible" group. I know several players including me who like the robots. I don't feel we needed them but the are a nice addition. Most players I know don't care about alliance nations too much. IMHO if there is anything the game doesn't need its more factions. It allready is difficult to balance adding more would not make it easier. We have seven core nations with a massive selection of models for each and several minor/alliance nations wich have boxes and are playable on their own. Even though the name alliance suggest they are not supposed to be played like this.

Releasing the DN robots was a viable business decision by SG. They most likely thought they would sell them well and earn money. For all that we know this could actually be the case. Most likely they intended to earn more than with releasing new minor factions. The core nations have a established player base. Every player is a potential customer. The minor nations don't. Compared to additions to the core nations they are a niche product. Its also more time consuming and expensive to design and produce the core boxes than a single model blister. The profit out of selling the boxes also is lower than with the large model blisters. As far as my experience and understanding of the situation goes the decision SG made was a good one. If they just keep relaeasing new factiones they will spread the player base out over too many sub lines. The point were players of minor factions start demanding more releases even to the point of making their faction of choice a major one will be reached quickly. By spreading the product range out like this it will be difficult if not impossible to generate a profit. A lot of smaller companies fall into this trap. Not only in gaming. Compared to other games from companies about the size of SG DW has an enormous range of factions and minis. This should be appreceated and not allways just complain and demand more. Why did companies like GW stop supporting most of their product lines and reduced the number or factions for the ones they continued to support?... and I am not talking about recently but back in the '90. They overstreched it. The design, production, handling and storage cost stay the same. The number of boxes sold per range goes down since the players are spread out over more product ranges but they only have a limited amount of money to spend. Its simply not a smart move.

Its not a give that there would be new factions even if SG wouldn't have released the robots.

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By spreading the product range out like this it will be difficult if not impossible to generate a profit. A lot of smaller companies fall into this trap.

 

With Spartan? Yeah, I don't think you should try to bring that up in relation to Spartan.

 

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... and the upcoming Halo ground combat game.

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The game will be getting more factions eventually. Otherwise why have them in the rulebook?

Most of the comments I've seen are "they are nice, but they just were not necessary" and more people are baulking at the price of them. For that amount of money I, and a few others have said the same, would have prefered they released the alliance nations that they have yet to release. We would have definitely got way more for our money than a single, albeit a very big, model.

It really does not take long to figure out a new ruleset and the time they spent playtesting the dread robots could have been spent on the alliance nations instead.

And, id probably say that had they released alliance nations instead, they probably would have gotten the same amount of sales from them as the robots, because, while you may not believe it, the alliance nations are popular. So they would have sold.

In fact, making the dread robot smacks of GW tactics - Spartan trying to fleece veteran players out of their money, as these are models that will only appeal to veteran players.

We've seen it a lot from GW over the years and know when they do it.

£45 for one model is just too much. If it was an alliance nation its not as hard to part with that much money, as your getting up to 16 models in one box. Its far easier to part with that kind of money if your getting a lot for it.

These dread robots though, your not getting a lot for it.

So I do not see why they bothered with them.

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The game will be getting more factions eventually. Otherwise why have them in the rulebook?

 

Just because they are in the rulebook doesn't mean they will be in the game with official models. Its not uncommon for game manufacturers to do so as a just in case option.

 

 

We would have definitely got way more for our money than a single, albeit a very big, model.

 

Everybody would have prefered to get things cheaper. i would prefer to get the battle group boxes for 10 €... better yet: 5 €... best: for free. This is no sensible argument though. IMHO just saying the model count is "1" so its to expensive is allmost rediculous. If the number of minis would be an important criteria nobody would use DNs everybody would just buy blisters of smalls. It is true that the DN robots are not cheap but I think the price is reasonable for what you get. Complaining about the fact that its a single mini IMHO is more like grasping for straws to argue against it. Not liking the design is one thing but complaining about the value is a different one.

 

 

It really does not take long to figure out a new ruleset and the time they spent playtesting the dread robots could have been spent on the alliance nations instead.

 

I think you are wrong with this. Designing new units or one in the case of the DN robots for an allready existing faction is a complety different ballpark than designing a completly new faction. With the new faction and even more so since its an alliance faction a lot more syneries and mutual effects have to be taken into account. Also you would not want to be the new faction to be like an allready existing one with new minis. Conciderable more work is needed. The physical production of the minis is not the real issue. The design work is. This is orders of magintude more time consuming and complicated with a new faction than and addition mini.

 

And, id probably say that had they released alliance nations instead, they probably would have gotten the same amount of sales from them as the robots, because, while you may not believe it, the alliance nations are popular. So they would have sold.

 

This is plain and simple an assumption. Wich might ot might not be true.

I tend to it not being true. IMHO you can't even say that alliance nations are popular. Most haven't been released yet. So we have no idea what they will look like and how they will play. Of the allready existing alliance and minor factions only a few are popular. One maybe to might be close to a major nation in popularity but some are more or less disliked or ignored by the majority.

The people that say they want alliance nations simply assume they will like the design and the playstyle. Wich IMHO is plain and simple wishfull thinking. Until the nation in question has been released there is no way of telling how popular it will be. Releasing an additional mini for an existing line is the far safer bet.

 

In fact, making the dread robot smacks of GW tactics - Spartan trying to fleece veteran players out of their money, as these are models that will only appeal to veteran players.

...and this is different to the alliance nations in wich regard? The alliance nations are NOT intended to be stand alone. Hence the name alliance. They are also aimed at veteran players. Thinking that the release of one or two alliance nations will generate a significant influx of new player is delusional. The simple fact that people in this forum who played DW for years want alliance nations shows that new players are not the issue. Of course it is about selling new stuff to the existing playerbase.

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 I think Spartan missed a trick when they did not keep the Ausf-A version of the Metzger in the list, but that's ancient history now.

 

Same here, (Trying to keep thread on topic) I liked the old stat line for the 'A' but it definitely needed refining. The idea of a fire support/siege metzger (give it a 2 Shield and fluff it out for having space cause it dropped the tesla gun).

 

Rather than units or nations, I'd like a fluff, a reason for the need for the giant robots. What brought everyone to decide to need these machines what rational human decisions lead to this. Was the stalemate in the war that desperate? Had the metzger and tuetonics been that successful to need a new design and a universal copy? How did they justify it. I'd be more in giant robot camp if it was explained why.

I'd also like more characters, not special units or if they have an effect it'd be minimal (I miss the rerolling crits picking the preferred crit 1.1 admiral but...he was op af). I'd like at the very least a couple paragraphs on field admirals and war heroes thus far. I want to see new theaters and fronts. Nations struggling with neutrality as the war progresses and what the hell led to the change from italians from bond to free nations.

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With Spartan? Yeah, I don't think you should try to bring that up in relation to Spartan.

 

 

You know pretty well, that seme of the games you posted are not being supported anymore. For exactly the reason i wrote.

The games that are supported to not canibalise each other since they have different target groups and player bases. Of course there is some overlapping but Plantfall will not interfere with DW. The games are just too different. The Halo thing I have mixed feelings about. SG got the license for an established brand. That is a chance for them. If it works out we will see in the future. I don't see Halo interfereing with DW since again they are to different. With Firestorm this is differen though.

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With alliance nations you can easily sell them to new players.

Different aesthetics appeal to many different people.

For example, I like the Prussians, the Danish and the Italians because I like the modern feel of each fleet, and the flair in the Italians.

I have a British fleet as well, but I do t like the look or feel of them. I'm also no fan of the American models or the Japanese, or the Australians, or the Indian models.

A friend of mine prefers the Russians for their relatively modern look, and has a few PLC stuff too that he is going to expand on as he thinks they are one of the best looking factions in the game. I disagree with him, but that's his opinion on them.

Many of the factions in the game I don't like the look of. Does that mean that all the alliance nations are doomed to failure? Does that mean that releasing new nations is a waste of time and resources??

No it does not, and your wrong if you think otherwise.

Veteran players may well be the main spenders on this game, but most aren't stupid enough to just spend willy nilly on everything that is churned out by a game company just because the company thought it was cool. But releasing an alliance nation has a much better chance of attracting a new player into the game because of a new aesthetic that that faction would bring, that might just appeal to a larger audience, than a single overpriced robot model, which is more likely to turn new players away.

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You know pretty well, that seme of the games you posted are not being supported anymore. For exactly the reason i wrote.

 

You're saying that Spartan shouldn't do a thing because of reason X. I show that Spartan doesn't seem to care about reason X, even when it has already bit them in the arse.

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You're saying that Spartan shouldn't do a thing because of reason X. I show that Spartan doesn't seem to care about reason X, even when it has already bit them in the arse.

... but they did change their way. Because they are not doing "the thing for reason X" allready.

This is exactly the reason why we are having this conversation. They did stop supporting non profitable product lines and do not add (or delayed) new lines to the games they still support. More factions for DW would be exactly what they used to do spread out and fritter away. Its simply not sensibel to criticise SG because you think that they spread our too much and then call for doing it by demanding more factions for a game that allready has a two digit number of these.

 

As a side note: I did like the minis for DL and would have really liked them to release more and support the system in general. Never the less the market for 28 mm is really tight because its overcrowded. Even though I don't like it I understand why they are pulling back. Chances are if they kept pumping recources into DL it would hurt DL and DW and the company as a whole in the medium or long run.

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Planetfall has been around for more then a year now. As a player of both systems; DW and Planetfall are totally different in the way they p;lay. Positioning and deploying work very differently in Planetfall compared to DW.  

 

DW is a much more complicated system with a lot more rules. Planetfall is very streamlined but still tactically complex. I like both systems. I'm currently building a Sorylian Army for planetfall, while at the same time reinforcing my French fleet (my Prussian fleet has reached Armada levels, but I've got a Danish surface assault group coming in).

 

Back on topic, what were the stats for the Ausf-A Metzger? I've only started playing DW in 2.0 so the only Metzgers I now are the Saint-Michel and the Ausf-B

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The Ausf - A was:

Costs: 90pts and came in squadrons of 1-2

Left Arm Cannon: 11/8/5/2

Right Arm Tesla: 8/6/3/0

DR:5 CR:8 Mv:8" HP:6

AP:8 AA:3 CC:3

Had sturginium boost.

Nothing special, but just a different version

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I'd up the cost and change the profile of the gun to the battleship's turret. Also put it back it squads of 1-2 I feel that'd up the threat level and prevent it from getting sniped early game. Keep the new speed profile of 6 and keep the tesla gen instead of sturginium.

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I had the same thought too, that some old metzgers were retro fitted to be the Saint Micheal.

I'm still waiting for Spartan to make and release the arms to make it though. I'm starting to get the urge to take the arm, cut away the fist, and get a Bic Pen lid and glue it into place where the hands and tesla coil would be.

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Rules-wise, could a Saint Michael Pattern Metzger be included in a PE naval force?

Also, I would assume that Scandinavian Metzgers have Strategic Objective (50) now...

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One thing the Metzger lacks is speed. You will find that it will be crippled by the time it can reach its targets ( the new dreadbots would rip it to pieces!).

Perhaps we can slightly increase its speed by a bit.....

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