Jump to content
Captain Frederic

Revised Coaking idea

Recommended Posts

So I've been thinking about how cloaking works both in terms of interacting with Scatter weapons and how it is utilized.

So I thought I'd toss this idea out for discussion.

What if instead of affecting dice pools when a cloak was active it gave all attacking weapons a -2 to hit penalty (same as elusive target but effecting small ships as well) and the ship had to be at full stop. The cloaked ships weapons would be unaffected.

This would allow scatter weapons to work as described against cloaked ships and cloaked ships would be trading improved damage capacity at range for maneuverability. This also seems easier to execute in terms of play since fewer calculations are needed.

Fluffwise it even makes sense to me as your changing the description from power being diverted from weapons to instead power being diverted from engines.

But this is just a thought experiment, what are other people's ideas/opinions.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To have to full stop to use it would be... Uh... Not at all useful. I would never make that trade.

So... Two things happen there. One, if a ship has its best arcs as open, it has no reason not to deploy presenting broadsides and sit under cloak... Two, the exception to this, is that when you have to advance, be it for objectives or for an enemy that would rather sit back and take potshots than risk moving into your static gunline, you've got no defensive system to cover you at all... So you turtle, and if you can't turtle you get picked apart. For this to work, you'd have to trade something other than movement, or something other than all of your movement (forced half speed, but can still turn? Some of thw slowest ships in the game for their class have Cloaks...) or else you've got the same situation. At that point, I'd say it'd be better to make those ships Ambush and not have Cloaks at all- you'd have a similar effect, but at least the ships would be actually able to move up-board.

If you wanted to trade penalties for penalties, that could work. I'd trade gaining difficult for a -1 to hit. I -might- trade -2 for -2... Eh. Yeah, I would, because with higher AD than cloaks currently leave you with, fishing for 6s isn't a bad bet. Would need a points cut, though, because Impeded was a much, much safer bet for preventing damage from potential runaway sixes.

The thing is... Lore-wise, the way things work makes sense. Scatter weapons fill the space where a target is believed to be with shots/shrapnel/whatever, but if it filled the entire arc then I think the rules would make more sense if it represented that instead of eliminating penalties. So, really, they would still have problems against a target whose location was only vaguely known, because while you can fill a cone of space with munitions, you're still not sure what cone of space it needs to be. The "stealth" effect that Scatter woukd impact is, surprise surprised, Stealth Systems, wherein you know where the ship is but can't target it effectively. And for that, within the range that Scatter's effect happens, Stealth's efeect does not.

Edit: fixed a highly unfortunate typo that implied scatter weapons fired poop

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So in an effort to boost a meh weapon system you cripple an entire fleet? Relthoza would go from hard to use to unplayable if they can't move at all.

Would they be unplayable though if they can simply fire at full strength with minimal risk of being damaged while holding still?

Just like now the key would be knowing when to turn off cloak and start manuevering.

As for capturing objectives yes they'd risk attacks while moving into position but once they got in range they could activate cloaks and simply camp. If Scatter weapons are close enough to be effective then the Relthoza primaries are also in their optimal bands.

I did consider half move as well instead of full stop. But that's why I brought it up for discussion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah no. Here's the thing- Rel full strength firing means diddly in the range bands where they have relative impunity to fire, ie. the range in which Cloaks and Stealth stack. Furthermore, if a Relthozan player is waiting to uncloak to manouver in the current statblocks, theu are not going to be doing anything terribly effectively. And sitting still on objectives is insane, because inevitably your foe is going to move into positions where you don't have guns and rear-arc you to death, even moreso if there is a weapon system that specifically cuts your defensive system and is nearly universal to a faction.

I fail to see how having a faction that could "simply camp" ever is beneficial to the health of the game...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think the Cloak mechanic is fine as-is... The problem is, thematically, it sounds like a Scatter weapon would have some kind of counter-measure against a Cloaked target. Thinking about it, this should only apply at RB1 for the Scatter Weapon as well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The game already has a dual movement valued units, space stations. Why not do something similar where there is the Cloaked Mv and a Uncloaked Mv? For instance, Nexus battleship: 5/7. The first Mv value is the Cloaked value and the second Mv is the Uncloaked value.

Now there is a valid reason for remaining Uncloaked at ranges where Stealth would give a benefit and utilize the higher Mv.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Why not give shielded ships two movement values? All those shields gotta put strain on systems! Oh, how bout ships can't move and fire in the same turn? I mean, those are some big guns!

 

Seriously, the solution to "Sorylians have boring and short-ranged weapons" is "kick the relthoza in the face", not "make the guns more exciting"?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think the Cloak mechanic is fine as-is... The problem is, thematically, it sounds like a Scatter weapon would have some kind of counter-measure against a Cloaked target. Thinking about it, this should only apply at RB1 for the Scatter Weapon as well.

That would fix the odd interaction of scatter weapons and cloak.

To be honest I'm genuinely wondering if cloak should actually work better I never intended to imply Relthoza need nerfed.

I just wanted to prompt discussion about alternatives to the current system.

From my limited perspective it seems like Cloak as currently written is a bit clunky (attackers benefit from terrain compared the cloaked vessel, the odd fluff interaction of scatter weapons, the comparable effectiveness of MARs like Hidden Killer and Stealth Systems).

I in no way think Cloak is overpowered I just wonder if there is a more elegant implementation that could generate a similar effect.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm looking forward to v3.0 of FSA rules, but Cloak is not one of the rules I feel needs "fixing".  It's one thing if you feel changes are necessary based how you conceptualize cloak working in this sci fi imaginary world, but as far as a game mechanic, I don't feel cloak is broken.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I just got back (as in, 32 minutes prior to starting this post) from the Reading FSA tournament with my Sorylians and the Scatter guns were huge. Being able to reliably expect my cruisers to broadside and kill 4 smalls in a single turn (4x8AD scatter gun shots) meant that I could consistently push for an activation advantage. Being able to render the joint 1st most common terrain type that was used (gas clouds) as nothing more than an advantage to me and a disadvantage to my opponent was helpful.

 

Scatter is good. Not neccessarily because of the rule itself but in concert with the fleets for whom it is a major weapon (Sorylians, Ba'Kash) it combines with comparatively high AD. Much like you'd expect to see quite high AD on Kinetics I think the unstated second 'feature' of Scatter is good AD at range bands that aren't that hard to make happen, especially considering that several scenarios include contesting objectives.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Why not give shielded ships two movement values? All those shields gotta put strain on systems! Oh, how bout ships can't move and fire in the same turn? I mean, those are some big guns!

Seriously, the solution to "Sorylians have boring and short-ranged weapons" is "kick the relthoza in the face", not "make the guns more exciting"?

Yeah, pretty much this. The cloak rule works ok, and the Relthoza are entirely built around it. I'd avoid massive, sweeping changes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If we are going to continue to speculate I think we focus on the factr that since Cloak is generally considered to work well we need to discuss things in terms of easier and/or more consistent implementation.  So far I've heard 2 things that might fit that criteria.

 

1) Scatter Weapons in RB 1 are not affected by cloaked ships (this would make scatter weapons more consistent with how they are generally described, playtesting would need to be done but since most ships would uncloak if another vessel is that close it doesn't seem like it should be too radical of a change)

 

2) Allow Cloaked vessels to benefit defensively from impeding terrain the same way their targets do. (again it would probably need playtesting but since it would standardize calculation method for ships both defending and attacking

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't see a problem with (1), as all it really requires is an adjustment in play style on the part of the Cloaked players. The only complaint I can see is when a unit with Scatter drops in at 8" via Shunt Entry, but since this basically sucks for everyone else already, I don't see why a Cloaked ship should be protected.

(2) would depend on implementation. If a Cloaked ship behind Impeding Terrain simply became Blocked (like shooting through 6" of Asteroids), it would simply require a play style adjustment by their opponent. Indirect Weapons would continue to ignore terrain and Cloak.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That actually brings up the question of whether any line of fire that would incur 2 impeded penalties should be considered "blocked".

It does seem strange you could technically shoot through 3 four in thick asteroid fields more easily than s single 10" asteroid field.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.