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graeme27uk

Are my CoA gimped?

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So looking through the new/updated ORBATS and the new drone rules - I cry.

The stuff I have bought for my CoA force have been nerfed to nerfdom. I liked using drones and so have lots of carriers. Now nerfed... the Epicurus - what happened!?

The Euclid - can I just throw it like a frisbee instead?? Again nerfed...

The new stuff is good, but I don't have that stuff so means buying more... I like the big robot centipede thing.. Coeus I think. But in reality is using it just going to cause temper tantrums from the opponent and is it another "all eggs in one basket" model?

So drones are now nerfed... that's my models nerfed.

So what do the CoA do now - what is their play style?

I guess I don't HAVE to use the new ORBATS.

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Take heart, brother scientist, and look unto our medium section. Therin lies our true greatness.

I don't believe a drone fleet is anything even close to resembling viable anymore, drones can now only be used as a supplement rather than a strength.

On individual models, an Epicurus might still have a place but a Euclid does not. It was hovering on the edge of viable before the update, but with the price bump and the drone nerf and nothing added to make up for it it has leapt off the nerf cliff and slammed into the harsh ground of unusability.

Coeus is very very much eggs in one basket, and if you believe the new orbat it isn't a waterproof basket either. There is a post from Spartan Derek on here somewhere saying the lack of multipurpose is a mistake, but going by official Orbats it cannot be used at sea. Plus the mv of 6 is not doing it any favours.

But all is not gloom and darkness in our large/massive selection. The Aristotle has had a dose of energy-turret medicine and now can be a viable choice... by imitating a Fresnel.

 

We are still tricksy, we are still usually the exception to established rules and we are still the most fun fleet :D Our playstyle is still as varied as we want it to be, we just had one of the legs on our chair kicked out from under us. I do think the drone nerf is pushing us more towards a rb4 gunline... which I really do not want to play. I seem to remember a comment from a Spartan saying that was characteristic of our nation's playstyle, which is a little sad and worrying. Yes we can do it, and we are better at it than anyone else, but I refuse to let that define out playstyle!!!

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All I say is meh.. I have lots and lots of drones. And I really love my disc-o-death. I have two Epicurus that seem that all they may now be is nice bookends...

For the price tag, the Coeus I don't see as a fun unit. It's expensive to buy, expensive to play. To me if its an Ei1B unit then from my experience these end up not really that much fun to play. Either they wipe the floor with the enemy to justify spending that much dosh/points; or they get swamped and wiped out by the enemy, leaving a sour taste in the mouth of wasted funds.

So its a great model... I'm tempted, but in reality would it get used much? Would it just be shelved unless we were playing BIG games?

I am not sure I want to play the RB4 game - I liked drone-play and sending wave after wave of cruise-missile doom. So have changes affected other nations/factions similarly? I do get concerned with "updated" rules changing how nations play which can be equally frustrating as fun sometimes. Can someone somewhere make up their mind how their vision of a nation plays out rather than being some amorphous changeable thing? Do they know themselves?

Oh well... guess I will have to ponder on what to do next.

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Well, drones before had the potential to be very over powered. Drone spam fleets were just horrible to play against (and to play) and so they definitely needed reigning in. I think there were better ways that this could have been achieved, without losing the flavour of the nation to such an extent, but for now we just have to struggle on.

It is a weird change, because it sorta forces us to drone spam if we want the network to be even slightly effective, and that now has its own major problems too.

No, no other nation had a fundamental alteration to a part of its core gameplay. We needed a change, but this... oh well.

You will struggle to play a cruise-missile-of-doom fleet now, but the Epicurus is still useable as a 2nd large/massive. Don't let them be bookends just yet, they are too cool for that! :P

The Coeus I have had since release, but not used due to aforementioned Orbat issues. I really can't say if it has more of an impact on the game than a standard dreadnought yet.

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We can hope that this incarnation of Drones and Carriers is a temporary measure until a better solution is organised (see; Any comment I've made about the CoA since the new orbat). Until then, non-drone spam lists are still very viable. And if you were playing drone spam... well, if I played drone spam I'd very rapidly run out of opponents willing to play against me!

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Just reading through CoA Sebenko ORBAT - still seems to me that things are just going a bit crazy - too many fingers in too many pies to try and fix the first pie...

So I guess getting back into DW isn't going to be so feasible or enjoyable. More static dust collectors......

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Just reading through CoA Sebenko ORBAT - still seems to me that things are just going a bit crazy - too many fingers in too many pies to try and fix the first pie...

So I guess getting back into DW isn't going to be so feasible or enjoyable. More static dust collectors......

 

Have you actually played a couple of games?

 

In my club, people were worried about the new drone rules as well. Turns out that even with an under-average return on drones in his game (1/3 instead of 1/2), the player in question still got enough drones back to launch a couple of wings. Drone launchers still have the advantage that the SAW don't have to get back to the carrier.

 

Try it out a couple of times before crying "wolf". It is not as bad as it seems on paper. Also the "old" drone spam was:

a- seriously OP

b- extremely boring to play against

So in that respect the new ORBAT is definitely an improvement.

 

Cheers,

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My last two games the drones were appalling.

Bombers gets picked off by SAS even with a fighter screen due to higher SAS Mv. Most of the dogfights happened late turn 2/early turn 3 and with average-ish feedback rolls no drones were able to launch until turn 3, the game ended at the end of turn 3.

So no useful drones were relaunched, the benefit of being reusable isn't much of a benefit if none of the relaunched drones get to do anything.

It seems for the most part drones are going to be used to cheese activations and hold off SAS in a defensive role.

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It seems for the most part drones are going to be used to cheese activations and hold off SAS in a defensive role.

 

I beg to differ about this point. I have done a couple of games with the new drone rules as a playtester and even when my drones were outnumbered I used them as aggressively as possible. The main strength of drones comes from the relaunch-ability, so it is key to use your drones fast, strike hard and relaunch whatever feedback allows. Even with a single Carrier (6) and subpar feedback I usually could relaunch at least a full squad of drones during turn 2 (or even 2x3) and usually some more drones during turn (3). Enemy SAS hate drones because of swarm tactics and if one is outnumbered in the sky the drones are highly effective in weakening enemy SAS to a level where they are mostly ineffective. 5 dronefighters have a decent chance to wipe out a full squadron of enemy SAS in one go. 3 drones are likely to bring bombers/torpedo bombers down to a level where they are manageable.

 

My few drone hints.

 

force composition:

- decide what tactical role your drones should have. Should they support or carry the weight of the battle, then take a adequate amount of drones/carriers for the job. 15-20 drones won't win battles on their own (any more).

- Take the right carriers for the job. A Diophantus/Epicurus/Euclid is better at launching divebombers in a central position than a Pericles/Kepler.

- Bring some air units. The CoA navals have relatively low AA, so it is a good idea to use some air for more AA and to possibly draw the attention of enemy SAS (a Hyperbius can tank a lot of SAS AA fire)

- Consider the Diogenes. It is a nice little frigate and you get 4x2 OR 1x5AA with a range of 20". Those boys are nice to weaken enemy SAS complements here and there while doing what they should do anyways.

- Consider the role of your drones it can be an interesting option to max activations and Swarm tactics and go for units of 3 drones. Those are great at picking of smalls and reduce enemy boarding potential, while they can greatly reduce the room for enemy Corvettes.

- go all fighters if you are low on drones (and relaunch torps/divebombers if the enemy SAS are under "control").

- go fighters + torpedodrones if you are strong on drones and relaunch whatever you need later (divebombers can be a good choice then). Turn 1+2 range is key.

- move drones early.

 

ingame:

- place your drones aggressively.

- move them as aggressively as possible.

- don't be afraid to lose your drones, you will get half of them back and you will have to lose them if you want to relaunch. There are no humans on the drones. Its not unethical to get them "killed" as they can't die.

- make your opponent attack your drones, these activations don't score him any points and you "win" new drones to relaunch.

- use this to lure him into positions where you can and will hurt him.

- most tricky bit: Keep your Carriers safe AND as close to the battle as possible.

- throw a lot of 6es ;).

- enjoy the CoA, they have one of the richest ORBATs and a strong one.

 

R

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I have to agree here with rufus. Just because they arent the big beating stick like they were before. Just means we need to flip our wrists a little and change the plays. The CoA have very strong units. Some of them however are nearly unusable, Euclid and almost the Dio ( too expensive, just go E Aristotle with a keplar, more AD and almost the same tfts). However with the right mix of offense and defense and the right play set ups our nation can dominate. We know our weaknesses, use that to our advantage. =D

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I have to admit that the state of the Euclid is breaking my heart. But I'm not all that bugged by the current state of the drones. In my opinion, if you just make the carriers a bit less expensive and a bit tougher, the system's fine. I'm also quite happy with the new Aristotle. I'm also pleased about the fact that we got the least silly/lame of the giant robots.

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Yes I'm very grateful to pull out my aristotle back into action, I'm not that upset either about the drones. It sucks but now we can take an Aristotle instead!! Hahaa

But yes the Euclid is not worth taking for the drones and points. When the drones got nerfed so did every carrier we have. So now most of them are a bit over expensive for what they do now which used to be ok since drones were truly infinite. Euclid already having to twist my arm to see the board now can't drone spam properly....

Then theirs the pericles, used to be a really cheap carrier (for us) but now is out shined by the keplars. One more drone, ability to spam 2 squads and now the same e turret AD and the same DR!! The DR alone makes me take keplars over pericles. Maybe in tey would bring up the dr to 6 and have an option for 12 CP for 35 points or something?

The Ceous is awesome!!! Love the tertiary, that's the only way the thing works IMHO. My only grips are we don't have any options on it other then drones. Maybe switching out the PA for a big E turret??? Would have to be in the double digits to make me take it but still an option. And maybe could we get shield 3?? At least for an upgrade? At DR 7 it's one of the softer robots so far, and I'm sure the Russian won't be soft.

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I still dislike the new Drone Feedback rule. People claimed that it wouldn't be like the 1.1 "one dice to win a game" Fresnel and Time Orb, but in my experience it has been exactly that- an extremely swingy mechanic where passing or failing the majority of the Feedback rolls can mean you're easily spamming drones across the board, or unable to do anything with them, respectively. Carriers being mostly rubbish except for the Kepler doesn't help, either.

 

Going through the carriers:

 

Diophantus- Really doesn't need to be a Dreadnought, swung straight from broken to borked.

Pericles- Ugly model, kinda meh carrier.

Euclid- HAHAHAHA, use a Euclid? Pull the other one, mate.

Epicurus- Poor Epicurus, nerfed slowly into uselessness.

KEPLER- WOOOO, SPAM KEPLERS ERRYDAY. ON THEIR OWN, IN PAIRS, TAGGING ALONG WITH AN ARISTOTLE, YOU NAME IT!

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