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Captain Frederic

Sorylian Speculation and Conjecture Thread

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I would agree the issue isn't the attack power of our squadrons.

We definitely have a speed issue. As for durability I don't have an issue from personal experience but the numbers do indicate it could be an underlying cause of overall poor Sorylian performance especially considering their fluff and tactics.

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We definitely have a speed issue.

Not really. I mean, the cruisers have 10", heavies have 9", frigates have 12" and the T1's are either as fast as the rest of mildly faster (the BB, if you load it out for gunnery only, can go 9"). If anything, it just proves that, given similar speed as the aquans, the sorylians lack in durability if they can't last as long. I mean...12" cruisers to make up for the fact they pop in one shooting phase?

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I think a universal +1HP for Medium and Large ships is the easy way to make this faction more durable. But expecting any Cruiser (except anything Cloaked or with Difficult Target) to survive a Turn of shooting is expecting way too much.

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Not really. I mean, the cruisers have 10", heavies have 9", frigates have 12" and the T1's are either as fast as the rest of mildly faster (the BB, if you load it out for gunnery only, can go 9"). If anything, it just proves that, given similar speed as the aquans, the sorylians lack in durability if they can't last as long. I mean...12" cruisers to make up for the fact they pop in one shooting phase?

I can see your point but aren't you possibly overlooking the impact of weapon ranges?

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I think a universal +1HP for Medium and Large ships is the easy way to make this faction more durable. But expecting any Cruiser (except anything Cloaked or with Difficult Target) to survive a Turn of shooting is expecting way too much.

I'd happily see HP or Sorylian ships taken to the "odd" value to help their feel as Battle Log Manipulators.

Perhaps there is also an issue of our Command Bonus being too low.

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You guys are talking about givng simple stats like +1 hp or +1 dr or cr. I tend to think that the Sorylian need a deeper flavour that will inhense the distinction from the other fleets. Just like the Relthoza or Terrans or Aquan who have their own defense system, the sorylian need one that will be use across the fleet, not just one or two ships. The best mars that I can think of and goes well with the fluff is 'retractable plating'. Sorylian are well known for their well design ship;  using cylindrical shape that reduce the potential of high damage inflicted against them. 'Retractable plating' is also a proactive defensive ability where the player decide to use it or not.....just like the cloaking technology. There is a 'fun factor' here where the player is making a decision. The drawback of this is this technology is that they can't use their weapons system while protected. Well, we all know to well that one of the big problem they are facing is the fact that some ships have hard time getting into a combat-like position without been to much damage. Something that the Relthoza can actually do extremaly well (claocking + stealth systems). Thinking that some ships need to be brought to the table by using the shunt action is very limited. It means that in every games you play with or agasint the Sorylian,the shunt action will be use, that become very predictable and not very fun.

 

Lets face it:

 

+ need a better differentiation from the other main fleets

+ 'retarctable plating' isnt use by any other main fleets

+ Even if it is use by the Ba'Kash, there is no rule saying you can't use it either.  Aquan has 'difficult target' while the work Raptor already has it'

+ Will help getting some ships in a combat-like postition

+ 'retractable plating' is a defensive system which player make a proactive decision to use it or not.....this increase the fun factor

+ will make the shunt action a tactic rather then mandatory

+ Ok some squadron have more ship then the usual,,,but Aquan too and they have difficult target.

 

Just to remind you:

'retractable plating' give a +1 DR, +1 CR while being unable to use any weapon system.

 

See of this problem form a general aspect.across the fleets not ajust focus on one ship or another. 

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Personally, think that Reinforced Starboard/Port on the Sorylians is more thematic and also helps alleviate the fact that they now have effectively the worst defenses of the 6 Core races.  Back in the day (v1) it was easy to see the defensive differences between the factions:

  • Terrans:  Base DR/CR with Shields
  • Dindrezni:  +2 CR (+1 for Smalls) and more HP above cruisers
  • Aquan:  +1 DR
  • Directorate: +1 CR
  • Sorylian: +1 CR
  • Retholza: Cloaks

For the most part, these difference have been enhanced, except for the Sorylians:

  • Terrans:  Base DR/CR with Shields & Sector Shields, +1 DR on smalls, Weapon Shielding on many mediums and all Larges
  • Dindrezni:  +2 CR (+1 for Smalls) and more HP above cruisers
  • Aquan:  +1 DR and shields beyond smalls, lots of Difficult Target options
  • Directorate: +1 CR and Reinforced Fore
  • Sorylian: +1 CR, optional and expensive Weapon Shielding above cruisers
  • Retholza: Cloaks, Stealth Systems and occasional extra HP

Now every faction has the occasional ship that breaks the trend, but the Sorylians didn't really get any defensive upgrades in V2.  Retractable plating isn't really shown on the ships.  But you could definitely see how Reinforced Starboard/Port would be on there.

 

It wouldn't hurt to upgrade their FF weapons in RB3 for the non-Kinetic ships.  That would help get some damage in earlier in the game.

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The more I think about it the more I do like the idea of retractable plating.  Even though Ba-Kash have it they have it on their fore weapon systems we would obviously have it on out broadsides.  Which would both address people's concerns about durability while not making Sorylian ships any tougher than they are now once they do get to a point where they can engage.

 

I even have to agree that the sculpting of our models would generally support the idea of port and starboard retractable plating.  The gun ports do appear like they could be on tracks.

 

Retractable starboard and port plating would probably also be less disruptive than an across the board HP bump (or applying reinforced broadsides to everything) but moving all even HPs up the odd HP mark would be a good tweak as well. 

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...'retractable plating' give a +1 DR, +1 CR while being unable to use any weapon system.... 

 

and just to clarify it doesn't lock out "all" weapon systems just the one it is attached to.  So in the case of Sorylians assuming we apply it to our broadsides we'd still be able to fire our meager fore weapon (and torpedoes) on approach.

 

"37 Retractable Plating (Weapon System)

During the Command Segment of its Activation, a model with Retractable Plating must declare whether its Plating is Extended or Retracted. If Retracted, there is no additional effect, if Extended the model’s DR and CR are increased by ONE, but it CANNOT use the listed Weapon System. A model can deploy with its Plating Extended."

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Going back to the discussion on weaponry and AD in RB3, what if there was some rework on the fore weapons on cruisers, frigates and T1? Scatter as a fore fixed doesn't make much sense to me.  If scatter is going to be billed as an area saturation attack to defeat tiny things, it should be full fore arc scatter.  Alternatively, solve some of the turn 1 firepower problem and make it fore fixed kinetic to make use of those long cylindrical hulls by puting a damn rail gun in it. 

 

It strikes me as odd that the only thing in our fleet with full fore arc weaponry is the corvette, the ship that should logically not have the room on board to be capable of hitting all those arcs. 

 

Going to full fore arc takes some of the artful positioning out of the Sorylian character, which makes all our extra movement a club rather than a scalpel, I'm more fond of a kinetic switch over than an arc expansion on this idea.  Amentums already have this available as a hard point.

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I would concur with Frag. It's not the effectiveness of our weapons it's being able to get into position to use them. Which means speed and/or durability.

And that's why I find the idea of retractable plating on our scatter broadsides growing on me. It preserves both the Sorylian flavor of resilience and dependence on positioning.

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Yeah, I think the AD as it stands would be fine.  4AD is enough to give a cruiser a black eye if you're a little lucky, and heavy cruisers pushing out 12AD for the 24-36" band is beefy, we shouldn't be out classing Dindrenzi with their signature weapon.  I think it adds a much stronger argument for doing a heavy cruiser led squad, going from 4AD to 8, and goes a long way toward fixing the >16" problem. 

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I disagree, Sorylians in the last two editions didn't have these issues. Now with the double whammy of the AD reduction and arc limits of the fore weapons and shortest weapon Range Bands in V2, we're having all these problems. Now other races have gotten around the short range issue, which leaves the logical conclusion that the arc/AD gimping must be the problem. The simple solution to which I've presented earlier in this thread, kick it back the way it was before you had these issues.

(Plus Aft torpedoes are fracking cool!)

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I disagree, Sorylians in the last two editions didn't have these issues. Now with the double whammy of the AD reduction and arc limits of the fore weapons and shortest weapon Range Bands in V2, we're having all these problems. Now other races have gotten around the short range issue, which leaves the logical conclusion that the arc/AD gimping must be the problem. The simple solution to which I've presented earlier in this thread, kick it back the way it was before you had these issues.

(Plus Aft torpedoes are fracking cool!)

 

 

I'm going to play the "fresh eyes" card since I have only played the current edition and Sorylains were my first and are still my primary fleet.  

 

I have no problem blowing up other people's ships.  Furthermore I enjoy playing Sorylians because of their manuevering and while it is hard to win with Sorylians consistently it isn't exceedingly hard to push a draw.  I think improving durability via retractable broadside scatter weapons has been the best and most elegant suggestions for pushing Sorylians from slightly below average in performance to being solidly competitive.  

 

Improving AD just makes Sorylians more like Dindrenzi but still suffering from shorter range bands.  I will always advocate for improvements that preserve the individuality of a force rather than homogenizing them.

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Yeah, the Retractable suggestion has grown on me, as well. The other two factions thay use it have a foward focus- one wanta to crash into you and open up, the other does the same but has some incentive to trade Retractable away. This means that while Retractable itself won't be unique to the lizards, its application will be. Side note, it would also be a very clever juxtaposition of the trading-attack-for-defence that the Sorylians' rivals do with Cloaks, which is an aesthetically pleasing design choice to me.

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So, since Sorylians lack a racial MAR (something on almost all vessels by default) should Retractable Plating (Port/Starboard Scatter) become the racial special?

However, Frigates and Corvettes are pretty solid as-is, and adding Retractable Plating without a point increase or other modification seems a bit OP.

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So, since Sorylians lack a racial MAR (something on almost all vessels by default) should Retractable Plating (Port/Starboard Scatter) become the racial special?

However, Frigates and Corvettes are pretty solid as-is, and adding Retractable Plating without a point increase or other modification seems a bit OP.

Looking over the roster I think Retractable plating on broadside scatter could be applied meaningfully to almost all tier 1 & 2s with the notable exception of the Bastion a Fleet vessels.

I would agree the Sorylian a Corvette and Frigates are pretty solid and don't need anything. If they were going to get a bump adding an inch of movement would probably be safe since MV increase does have a downside as well.

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Retractable plating is the way to go.

 

As I said earlier;

 

+ makes the Sorylian more unique in their ways

+ add a great fun factor playing with this mars: you decide when retracting them or not (just like the cloacking field)

+ give a chance to get into a brawler-like position without been to much damage....especially for the BBs.

+ no more mandatory to use the shunt action to get the BB close to combat scene.

 

On a side note I wonder if it should be add to the fore arc as well as on the starboard, port arc of fire.

Getting into a combat like position means the ship will still get hit hard on the fore arc before it happens.

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A Mv increase has no downside when your TL is 0".

 

it's a minimal downside but there is the extra 1/2" of required movement.  As I said I'm not sure they need anything at all just a single inch of Mv. would seem like a compromise if people think they need something (an much less disruptive than adjusting any of the other stats).  I suppose you could put pack hunter on the corvettes even that seems like overkill to me since they are good units already because of Scout.

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You didn't understand me. 8+ Mv combined with 0"TL essentially means you can go wherever you want within a large area... Any increase to the Mv stat simply increases your options.

My main point was, while it would be cool and thematic to give the Frigates and Corvettes Retractable Plating, it would make them OP for the points. Everything else Sorylian would probably end up very well balanced by adding this MAR.

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You didn't understand me. 8+ Mv combined with 0"TL essentially means you can go wherever you want within a large area... Any increase to the Mv stat simply increases your options.

My main point was, while it would be cool and thematic to give the Frigates and Corvettes Retractable Plating, it would make them OP for the points. Everything else Sorylian would probably end up very well balanced by adding this MAR.

 

I completely concur.

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