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jupjupy

Discussion: Massive Overhaul of the CoA

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Hey everyone,

 

So I don't think I'm alone in thinking that the CoA as a faction has gotten a little off track from where we originally wanted to be. Back in (admittedly overpowered) 1.1 CoA, our units were stronger while being more expensive, and our ships almost unrivalled in their roles. Drones felt swarmy but weak individually, E-Turrets were precise and accurate at long distances, and every model had its place.

 

With the shift to 2.0, and especially the recent smash that we got in the new ORBATs (again, admittedly deserved), I don't feel I can say the same now. 

 

So, I'd like reimagine the CoA. I'd like to bring back the feel of the fleet that I first saw and went "Damn, thats one cool ass laser!", the fleet that I attempted to engineer from the ground up, thinking of fluff, named ships and named Commodores, and even writing unique abilities.

 

And I'd like your help.

 

What would YOU like to see in a reimagination of the CoA? Which models would you like changed? Mechanics? Roles? Would you like drones as they currently are, or as annoying swarmy bugs? Would you like the Teleport Generator to stay in its current state? How about Energy Turrets?

 

Please, do give me your inputs.

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My view is that the Covenant sometimes had a feel of a more modern navy (say, WWII over the more WWI and earlier other nations)- carriers, larger destroyers (Zumwalt DDG? It's as long as a bloody Aristotle!), proto-cruise missiles, guided weapons. I always got a feel, when building a list, that the CoA had a strict process of "Identify Objective > Establish Solution to Objective > Enact Solution with minimal losses". It's definitely the case when doing focused lists such as E-turrets, teleporters or mines- and the CoA seem to be at their strongest when following such a focused list.

 

On the subject of drones, I definitely prefer the image of drones as super expendable- I remember 1.1 where they were flat worse than anyone else's TFTs, but could respawn. I'm sure there's a way to keep both balance and the sense of "Oh well, lost a whole squadron of drones- more where that came from!". Maybe instead of the current Feedback rule (which I really don't like on a design level), carriers taking damage lose a drone to the scrapheap (in addition to the total removal for each crit), move swarm tactics to a Combat Coordinator with a fairly long range (say, 20-24") on all carriers. Or make the Feedback rule more set in stone- e.g., whenever a squadron is wiped out, remove half it's starting strength from the scrapheap. And make it apply only to drones shot down, which would reward smart play more. At the moment there's no use for max squadron size value on the dice that SAS have, so there's space for that mechanic already.

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I still don't understand the people on this forum.   We as Coa players have access to the most carriers, so that would tell me that they are building the fleet around our Carriers and drones.   It is okay if we have the best SAS in the game, some body has to. 

 

Now we no longer have the best SaS, and are stuck with all these carriers that got nerfed themselves.   It is kinda ironic that a lot of Coa players got what they wanted.

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I still don't understand the people on this forum. We as Coa players have access to the most carriers, so that would tell me that they are building the fleet around our Carriers and drones. It is okay if we have the best SAS in the game, some body has to.

Now we no longer have the best SaS, and are stuck with all these carriers that got nerfed themselves. It is kinda ironic that a lot of Coa players got what they wanted.

CoA players recognised that drones were overpowered the knock on effect of which meant the carriers felt overpowered. Drones being super nerfed as well as carrier changes has been a double whammy that we didn't really expect. Did the Diophantus need dread(ish) stats and a points hike.....probably not. Did the Euclid need a big points hike? Probably not. I wouldn't necessarily say we got what we wanted...just realised drones had to change.

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Yes, the drones had to change. It was breaking the game. Did they go too far? I think so. And having the best SAS is very different from always winning because of said SAS.

Back on topic though, I'd like to start off with energy turrets. I think that the current variation of E-Turrets are slightly stale (and sadly, not particularly powerful either, though I have yet to try the 18AD Aristotle + Kepler squad). For those who didnt play 1.1, E-Turrets used to have Pinpoint and threw out superior dice at RB3 and 4 compared to our regular turrets. Putting the overpowered Fresnel generator aside, I think that would be a nice way to give E-Turrets back their "highly accurate" feel. Of course, they could cost more, like the current Aristotle guns. The only models that I felt was worth taking with E-Turrets over regular ones in 2.0 was the Plato and the Epicurus.

Thoughts?

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I actually like where e-turrets are. Basically anytime e-turrets are a paid upgrade they tend to be worth it, so long as you want that in your list.

E-turrets let us rule range band 4. We can pick and destroy key targets right at the start of the game and this, to a certain extent, lets us dictate the pace of the game. With a good mix of normal and energy weapons we have incredible firepower for all occasions and ranges!

If I want to, I can use Fresnels and other energy artillery to force opponents to close as fast as they can, right into the waiting guns and particle accelerators of the rest of my fleet which can be positioned to shelter from enemy firepower until they are ready to strike!

I don't feel they need a boost. Maybe a points reduction on a couple of vessels upgrades and maybe a few more AD on a few turrets (Prometheus e-turrets are just weak) but in general I like where they are at.

Then we add a few synergistic tools, such as the Hyperbius, that can take energy weapon target painters! In fact one way I thought the Daedalus could actually become useful was to boost its movement value and give it a choice of decent ranged target painter upgrades.

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I'd be happy with the CoA being the "elite" faction of the game - higher cost but higher-efficiency units, with slightly higher than average AD values and a good generator selection. The tradeoff would be, as it is currently, reliance on shields for protection rather than inherent ship toughness. Drones could be what they are described as in the fluff - expendable. I don't mind them being slightly worse than regular SAS, since the tradeoff is being able to relaunch them - remember back in 1.0 and 1.1 where they were easier to kill? I'm fine with that too, to an extent.

 

I see this play style as forcing CoA players to play smart, rather than relying on mass expendable units - where each loss is felt.

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I'd be happy with the CoA being the "elite" faction of the game - higher cost but higher-efficiency units, with slightly higher than average AD values and a good generator selection. The tradeoff would be, as it is currently, reliance on shields for protection rather than inherent ship toughness. Drones could be what they are described as in the fluff - expendable. I don't mind them being slightly worse than regular SAS, since the tradeoff is being able to relaunch them - remember back in 1.0 and 1.1 where they were easier to kill? I'm fine with that too, to an extent.

 

I see this play style as forcing CoA players to play smart, rather than relying on mass expendable units - where each loss is felt.

 

Agreed. DWars doesnt really have a faction of elite units, and I could see the CoA being that. To some extent, thats what they are in fluff, actually. I remember a post about there only being as few as 9 War Fleets (The CoA standard detachment of Aerial, Land, and Naval units grouped together). 

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I like the CoA overall. Having pinpoint back on the e-turrets would be good as well as fit with the fluff. Seems like a lot of other nations have useful mar's on their weaponry but we seem to have fallen behind in this regard.

The thing I think we're lacking is a high gunnery centre holding unit. The Prometheus is very good, don't get me wrong, but the weapons point in every direction and they can't join up very well into one pool. Sometimes you just need that boost. Maybe it would be a slot for a heavy battleship. An actual battleship. No drones! 3 dreadnought turrets, good broadsides and possibly torpedoes. Wave lurking is optional as is a particle accelerator. It's possibly the one thing we lack.

The recent overall design push has been toward carriers and drones and now that carriers got very expensive and drones got worse it feels like we've lost some identity and focus.

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I too would like the elite feel. I mean, we do have elite crew and generators on nearly everything (and inventive scientists to keep those generators humming/burning down the crew barracks) but I wouldn't mind paying a few more points for having stuff that is just a bit better than might be expected...

Another aspect of that, though, is low AP numbers. In general we have low to average AP on our vessels, and mostly this is fine. However there are a few of our ships where AP number makes the ship unfeasible anywhere near the frontline. Fresnels for example have terrible AP numbers, but this is perfectly find because they should not be operating anywhere near the enemy (and such a powerful tool needs an equally powerful weakness!). The Aristotle, on the other hand, has only 6 AP. For a frontline warship. Using it's new e-turret version it would be fine, just as for the Fresnels, but we need a few frontline ships and the battleship should be one of them! AP 7 would not be much of a boost but it would be a start! At least it would not be on par with most battlecruisers! It has enough problems as a frontline ship as it stands (degrading gunnery anyone?) anyway.

Sorry, that turned into a bit of a moan there...

erm.... of yes, the elite feel. Better to boost our points cost that to reduce our already low AP!

 

As for a heavy battleship, know which MAR we don't have on any model? Redoubtable! (Yes, I know our energy weapons are, but that is special!)

Preferably a wavelurker ('cos that is just cool!) and, like Oml said, some decent turrets!With redoubtable, Pericles main turrets (9/7/6/4) would fit the bill. Give it two of them and one big honking raised dreadnought turret! An AD spread of 21/17/14/10 could be fun without being too strong. Slap the Aristotle broadsides on it and don't give it other weapons, since like most CoA vessels it needs to be a bit specialised (and in this case is specialising in main gunnery and close quarters battling)

Stick a shield generator inside it for good measure and then lightly season with other stats.

In fact...

 

Suitable-Scientist class Heavy Battleship

Points 235

Regular Elite

DR 6 / CR 10 / MV 6" / HP 9

AP 8 / AA 5 / CC 3  / IR 6

 

Weapons

              __                   1              2            3           4

Raised Main Turret (p) 12           10           8          6

Lower Main Turrets (p)  9             7            6          4

P/S Broadside (s)         10            8            6          4

 

Large naval wavelurker

Model Assigned Rules : Redoubtable

Options : Model is fitted with an Internal Shield (2) generator and an external Time Flow (8") generator

              

Weapon Arcs : One Raised Main Turret has a 270 Fore Arc

                        Two Lower Main Turret has a 180 degree offset Arc (so that all three can link forwards, but not to either side)

                        P/S Broadsides have a broadside fire arc.

 

Redoubtable is an amazingly good MAR on anything with a lot of HP. It would really help keep this vessel in the fight, which cannot be said for most/any of our other units. Considering the value of the MAR (and it being a bit out-of-theme for us) I think a points cost on the high end is necessary, and it would fill the gap between our (few) non-dreads and our (many) actual dreads.

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I like it Thamoz, the only thing I would change is AA value of 7 and CC value of 4 also maybe split the broadside to have one upper and one lower. It would fit the theme of CoA as well as have a little something extra to shoot while wave lurking.

Maybe torps but it has some good firepower now

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Maybe, instead of raising AP levels a sprinkling off security posts/specialized defenses would do the trick instead? Hard to take the bridge when theres a forcefield and pop-out laser turrets after all.

I think slapping security posts (3) on the aristotle for about 10pts would go a long way. Thoughts?

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I like the idea of Specialized Defenses, actually! Instead of increasing boarding capacity (which isnt supposed to be our thing), instead give us some slight defenses against boarding while keeping AP low!

 

I also tried to flesh out the Heavy BB a little more.

 

Napier-class Heavy Battleship

Points 240

Elite Crew

DR 6 / CR 11 / MV 6" / HP 9

AP 8 / AA 6 / CC 5  / IR 7

 

Weapons

              __                        1              2            3           4

Raised Main Turret (P)     12           10           8          6

Lower Main Turrets (P)      9            7            6          4

Lower P/S Broadside (S)  10            8            6          4

 

Large Naval Capital Wave Lurker Model

Model Assigned Rules : Advanced Engines (+1''), Redoubtable, Inventive Scientists, Specialized Defenses (2)

Options : This model is fitted with an Internal Shield (2) Generator for no additional cost.

               This model is fitted with an Internal Time Flow (8'') Generator for no additional cost.

               This model may replace the Internal Shield (2) Generator for an Internal Shield (3) Generator for +15 Points.

              

Weapon Arcs : One Raised Main Turret (P) has a 270-degree Fore Fire Arc.

                        Two Lower Main Turrets (P) has a 180-degree Offset Fire Arcs.

                        The Lower P/S Broadsides have a Broadside Fire Arc.

 

Although I think a pocket battleship might be in the CoA interests too. Something like a super-heavy gunship, with anti-large weaponry, but fairly easy to destroy in comparison. Also worth much higher than traditional pocket battleships, maybe in the 180 points range.

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i would like to see something of a dreadnought submarine :D i have no problems with the rule drones are now nerfed but not soo hard, if i loose the half of my first wave the enemy has no fighter anymore and the rest are bombers i play like 30-40 drones and 20 in second wave on 1500 point are though^^

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No. No more dreadnought.

 

 

<stats>

 

I think we're also lacking in the naval small category- we've never had a new naval small, and I think we can kill two birds with one stone.

 

Plutarch Beta-class Reconnaissance Destroyer

Points 40

Elite Crew

DR 4 / CR 5 / MV 10" / HP 3

AP 2 / AA 2 / CC 2  / IR 2

Squadron Size: 1-3

 

Weapons

                                      1              2            3           4

 P/S Broadside (S)         5             4             -            -

 

Small Naval Model

Model Assigned Rules: Small Target, Attachment (CoA Naval, 1)

Options : This model is fitted with an internal Target Painter Generator (Primary Weapons, 12", +1) for no additional cost.

               This model may replace the internal Target Painter Generator (Primary Weapons, 12", +1) with an internal Target Painter Generator (Energy Weapons, 12", +1) for +5 points.

               OR

               This model may replace the internal Target Painter Generator (Primary Weapons, 12", +1) with an internal Target Painter Generator (Secondary Weapons, 12", +1) for +10 points.

 

Weapon Arcs : The P/S Broadsides have a Broadside Fire Arc.

 

This would be a Plutarch with the turret replaced with a generator array. Removed the Shield Generator, since the Plutarch was already the only small to have a generator at all, let alone two. The TPG (Secondary Weapons) is a wouldn't it be cool if... when taken with a squadron of normal Plutarches. The main focus is on the first two generator options.

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Grey Mage, that is an inspired idea! Security posts! It makes the most sense, does exactly what we want and maintains the theme and feel of the CoA! You are a certifiable genius!

Stick security posts (2) on the Aristotle and it has a much much better chance of living past the first enemy to sneeze on its crew!

Specialist defences I am not so sold on, but it would certainly help.

 

So, building on JupJup's fleshing out the the hbb

 

Napier-class Heavy Battleship

Points 240

Elite Crew

DR 6 / CR 10 / MV 5" / HP 9   (Reduced CR to 10 since we don't want this to be too tough, with wavelurker and inventive shield this is probably as tough as a Hbb can be)

AP 7 / AA 6 / CC 5  / IR 7       (reduced AP to 7 to account for security posts, CC down to 4 since our large/massives are terrible at CC, even the prometheus only has cc 4)

                                               (Reduced mv to 5 to account for time flow, following the model of the Chanura heavy battleship)

 

Weapons

              __                        1              2            3           4

Raised Main Turret (P)     12           10           8          6

Lower Main Turrets (P)      9            7            6          4

Lower P/S Broadside (S)  10            8            6          4

 

Large Naval Capital Wave Lurker Model

Model Assigned Rules : , Redoubtable, Inventive Scientists, Specialized Defenses (2), security posts (2)  (lost advance engines to further separate from Aristotle, this is a heavy duty ship and should be quite slow I think. This is also made up for by the time flow generator!)

 

Options : This model is fitted with an Internal Shield (2) Generator for no additional cost.

               This model is fitted with an Internal Time Flow (8'') Generator for no additional cost. (time flowed, this ship would move 7-9 inches per turn)

               This model may replace the Internal Shield (2) Generator for an Internal Shield (3) Generator for +20 Points. (upped points cost to 20, this is already a very very tough ship!)

              

Weapon Arcs : One Raised Main Turret (P) has a 270-degree Fore Fire Arc.

                        Two Lower Main Turrets (P) has a 180-degree Offset Fire Arcs.

                        The Lower P/S Broadsides have a Broadside Fire Arc.

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Actually, the Aristotle has CC6, which is what I was basing the stats off. I didnt actually notice the Prometheus had a terrible CC of 4. The rest of them seem okay, though. Diophanthus has CC6. With Security Posts, this thing is virtually invulnerable to boarding unless its about to die and/or has lost most of its marines. 

 

I liked the idea of it being just a little faster than the rest of the larges, since it's meant to be really up close and personal. Considering it has no ability to swap out energy turrets, 7-9 inches is about the speed of an Aristotle. I suppose its a little more versatile in its use of the Time Flow, but yeah.

 

 

Since we're in the realm of stat building, I was thinking of doing an entire revamp of the CoA current fleet list. Just for experimentation - see how we can make the CoA into an 'elite' fighting force.

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A full turret battery from an Aristotle produces a 23-18-13-8 spread, with the following spread after taking the bracketed damage.

(2 HP) 18-13-8-3

(4 HP) 13-8-3-3

(6 HP) 8-3-3-3

Refitting the Aristotle to have two of its original 9-7-5-3 turrets and a single 14-11-8-5 turret would keep the initial spread of 23-18-13-8 while giving it the following spreads with the bracketed damage.

(2 HP) 19-14-9-4

(4 HP) 15-10-5-3

(6 HP) 11-7-3-3

Making it much more useful after some HP loss and less prone to AD degradation. It doesn't have to be an Aristotle refit (as it'd likely make the 4 turret version obsolete) but it's just an example to get some numbers, a nice fat turret supported by some smaller ones on a large ship would at least give more choices.

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