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Punisher357

Thoughts on oroshans or Veydreth?

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So.

 

To understand the Veydreth, remember that they are aggressive space dragons who have survived as raiders and pirates, preying on more successful nations and stealing their ****. Veydreth ships are designed to hit fast and hard, then get the hell out of town. Thus, their ships occupy two poles: glass hammers that get in close and hit hard, and scrappy skirmishers that stay at range and mess the opponent up. Examples of the first: the battleship, the assault cruiser, and the corvette. Examples of the second: the gunship, the heavy cruiser, and the destroyer. They exploit the Ambush MAR to get in close, and between that and fold space jumps, it's possible to start the game with nothing but a field of Ambush tokens in view, some of which are squadrons, and some of which are nothing at all. Playing as Veydreth is all about patience and smart aggression - you win because you know when to lurk and when to strike, and when you strike, you strike hard, and either win all at once or end up running off. Playing against Veydreth is disorienting in the extreme. You never know what's going to happen until all of a sudden it's happening and dear god why  :blink:...

 

This is different from the other most famous stealthy faction, the Relthoza. Playing against the Relthoza is much more a sense of creeping horror. They're coming, you can see them coming, but you can't see them well enough to do anything about it, until suddenly they're right on top of you.

 

Before I move on to the Oroshan, I also want to talk about Veydreth internal synergies. It wouldn't be entirely accurate to call the Veydreth a boarding faction - there really aren't many of those in FSA. However, they are damn good at it. This is in part because of their above average AP values - up to 9 on the battleship, 12 on most non-assault T2s, 18 on the boarding-focused T2s, and even a respectable 10 on the corvettes. It's in part because when used as part of a Sorylian fleet they get access to the valuable Thermal Controls TAC, which gives every ship pseudo-Special Forces. And it's in part because they have easy access to the High Energy MAR (available on the battleship, gunships, and destroyers), which lets you potentially place a huge number of Hazard markers on your opponent's ships, which in turn saps their CPs, which in turn renders their ships more vulnerable to your higher-than-average AP scores... and so on.

 

The final Veydreth quality is mines. Veydreth do mines like woah. They are one of the minesiest factions in the game. The battleship can drop two 7 AD mines or a single 10 AD mine. The gunships drop between six 4 AD mines and a single mine with up to 14 AD. The least impressive mines are still the 8 AD dropped by a squadron of assault cruisers. Even the corvettes can work together to drop a 10 AD mine. This means that anything you don't configure to start the game as an ambush token can instead shunt in right in front of your enemy and drop a line of bastard-nasty mines all over the place. The only thing Veydreth don't have is special MARs for their mines, and that's because, frankly, starting the game with mines on the table (Minefield MAR) or move (Drone Mines MAR) or have some special ammo MAR would probably be too much.

 

Anyway, on to the Oroshan!

 

The Oroshan are brawlers. They're tough (decent defensive stats, 1 to 2 shields on all T1s and shields on T2s as well), they have phenomenal AD scores, they have beams that are great in RB 1 and RB 2 (this is especially great for beams, because of beams' special powers in the first range band) and they can do boarding. In some ways, the Grief-Class Escort is the quintessential Oroshan ship. It's an escort with guns, so it boosts its parent T1's firepower, and it can be further upgraded to either also assist with boarding or to act as both an offensive escort and a PD escort. The Oroshan are all about offense, and they can take it on the chin as well.

 

However, their bluster hides their own particular weakness. Oroshan ships are tough and strong, but they lack staying power. Once they start taking damage, they're in trouble. Their T1s rely on self-linking to gather up those impressive AD totals, which means that every point of damage they take counts double. Their T2s don't have that problem - because almost everyone's T2s are really the star of the show in this game - and their T3s are great... but still just T3s. 

 

Oroshan can also benefit from a lot of instances of the High Energy and Decimator Warheads MAR, which basically amounts to their survival strategy: hit hard, cause your opponent to lose effectiveness and hopefully become disordered, and you have a chance to hit him again and make it stick.

 

Hope this helps!

 

As an aside, writing this has cemented my desire to get a Veydreth patrol fleet with the money I got from selling off some of my Aquans... I think I'll go place that order now...

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I play my Oroshans very straight forward. I put them on the field, aim at my enemies, and then start shooting them as I move to them as quickly as possible, since their weapons get better the closer you are. Average DR means I'll take a few hits here and there, but above average CR and shields mean I can avoid most crits. Weapon Shielding helps avoid double degradation issues on the Armageddon and the Harbinger. I tend to get into range 1 and stay there, as that is the best range band for my beams and torpedoes, and usually not the enemy's best range band. Assaults, whether upgraded or not, are extra attacks I always try to fit in (not as my main tactic, but simply as an extra attack). I think my last game everything but my Phantom ally assaulted, except for the Slayers that died before they could get there. But as ElctricPaladin said, brawl. Brawl, brawl and more brawl. Don't forget Weapon Shielding, or you'll probably lose the brawl.

 

For Veydreth, everything ElectricPaladin said.

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Thank you both. I appreciate the advice.....now I want both fleets! Hahaha

I think I'm leaning towards the oroshan. I already have the relthoza. I really really like the look of those veydreth though.

Decisions, decisions...ugh

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A couple of modifications to what electric paladin said regarding veydreth.  

-Gunships are awesome but work better as glass hammers than skirmishers. The battleship can play both glass hammer and skirmisher with equal poise. 

-Full corvette group drops a linked 9MN, not 10.

 

Otherwise spot on.

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Also if not pointed out already, the Oroshan can buy weapon shielding, a very handy rule to have. Is there any lore on the Oroshan apart from they lost their home world? Im guessing they are not humans. Mon calamari probably?

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Also if not pointed out already, the Oroshan can buy weapon shielding, a very handy rule to have. Is there any lore on the Oroshan apart from they lost their home world? Im guessing they are not humans. Mon calamari probably?

 

They are 4 armed muscular humanoids like Goro from Mortal combat or Four Arms from Ben 10 probably.  I don't believe it's clear why they lost their homeworld but it could have been natural disaster or poor resource management.  Regardless they've been nomadic for a long time to the extent it's unclear where they originated or if they even care.  They don't seem interested in finding a new home or reclaiming their old one.  They seem socially content as mercenary war tribes.

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Fluff isn't really a huge factor to me, though it is a minor one. Space dragons are far more appealing to me than 90's troll haired goro's. Play-style and the physical appearance of the ships are more of the focal point, however. 

 

I love the veydreth ships. They're probably some of my favorite in the firestorm universe. My concern is that they won't have the firepower to contend effectively. Mines aren't something I'm hugely familiar with. It seems that they depend very heavily on their ability to use mines effectively. If, for whatever reason, their mines are rendered ineffective (not obsolete) it seems they wouldn't stand much of a chance.

I understand that they also have multiple ships with the ambush MAR, but it seems like that's useful only in a minor sense and easily countered by the enemy. If an ambush goes sour (i.e. your ship is discovered, isolated, focus fired on, and quickly destroyed) you're left with a huge disadvantageous loss.

It just seems that the cons outweigh the pros. I really really really want to love the Veydreth, but from what I can see it seems they'll be very very inconsistent.

I don't mind losing games, but winning is what makes the losses bearable. Continually losing will dampen or drown the enjoyment. There needs to be a balance.

This is just a very shallow, first impression. If I'm wrong, please correct me. 

 

The oroshans, on the other hand, seem to be durable and have consistent and effective firepower. They seem straight-forward. Very aggressive and confrontational strategies appear to be a good match with this fleet. They probably don't have many alternative strategies, but probably don't need them either. I do worry that game-play could potentially become stale or one dimensional with this fleet. I don't like the ship designs as much as the Veydreth either. 

The straightforward nature of this fleet almost makes it seem like it's up to your opponent's stats and dice rolls as to whether victory is achieved. Strategy could potentially be found lacking. 

Once again, this is just a shallow, first impression. Nothing is set in stone. Please, correct me or enlighten my understanding if I'm lacking vision of the greater picture. 

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Fluff isn't really a huge factor to me, though it is a minor one. Space dragons are far more appealing to me than 90's troll haired goro's. Play-style and the physical appearance of the ships are more of the focal point, however. 

 

I love the veydreth ships. They're probably some of my favorite in the firestorm universe. My concern is that they won't have the firepower to contend effectively. Mines aren't something I'm hugely familiar with. It seems that they depend very heavily on their ability to use mines effectively. If, for whatever reason, their mines are rendered ineffective (not obsolete) it seems they wouldn't stand much of a chance.

I understand that they also have multiple ships with the ambush MAR, but it seems like that's useful only in a minor sense and easily countered by the enemy. If an ambush goes sour (i.e. your ship is discovered, isolated, focus fired on, and quickly destroyed) you're left with a huge disadvantageous loss.

It just seems that the cons outweigh the pros. I really really really want to love the Veydreth, but from what I can see it seems they'll be very very inconsistent.

I don't mind losing games, but winning is what makes the losses bearable. Continually losing will dampen or drown the enjoyment. There needs to be a balance.

This is just a very shallow, first impression. If I'm wrong, please correct me. 

 

The oroshans, on the other hand, seem to be durable and have consistent and effective firepower. They seem straight-forward. Very aggressive and confrontational strategies appear to be a good match with this fleet. They probably don't have many alternative strategies, but probably don't need them either. I do worry that game-play could potentially become stale or one dimensional with this fleet. I don't like the ship designs as much as the Veydreth either. 

The straightforward nature of this fleet almost makes it seem like it's up to your opponent's stats and dice rolls as to whether victory is achieved. Strategy could potentially be found lacking. 

Once again, this is just a shallow, first impression. Nothing is set in stone. Please, correct me or enlighten my understanding if I'm lacking vision of the greater picture.

There is nothing shallow about knowing what you like.i have been playing Sorylians for months have my Battle Fleet of Veydreth on the painting table (I'm holding out for a new T1 before I pull the trigger on a third squad of Corvettes) and my Grand Fleet of Oroshan is on deck. All three of these fleets appealed to me both aesthetically and in tactics. But that doesn't mean they'll be great for you.

I think it sounds like you should play some Oroshan first and then revisit the Veydreth a little later.

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This is just a very shallow, first impression. If I'm wrong, please correct me. 

 

Glad to.

  1. Mines are a pretty secondary weapon, even for the Veydreth. The thing about them, though, is that they can be a great defensive weapon. Continually pooping out mines as you advances makes it very hard for your opponent to outmaneuver you. You can also use fast (Veydreth ships are fast) flanking or shunt deploying ships to drop mines someplace really obnoxious - like directly behind your opponent's ships so that they get blasted as they activate - which can make them an effective defensive weapon. Also, mines make some scenarios - like Capture the Station - practically auto-win; just drop a bunch of really nasty mines around the station as you fly forward to engage the enemy and you've got it made. That said, mines are secondary. They are not the primary part of anyone's tactics, including the Veydreth.
  2. Ambush is a great MAR. It's probably my favorite. It's important to remember that Ambush gives you a number of major advantages. Ships that are ambushing can be deployed anywhere on the board, not just in your deployment zone. All of your ambush markers - real and fake - are put on the table after the deployment phase, which gives you unparalleled control over the board. In all of the games so far where I've used the Ambush MAR, I've never had a ship end up uncovered by my opponent - if my opponent heads towards an Ambush marker, I just uncloak it and kick his butt. It's easy when I can make sure I get the drop on him! More importantly, however, the fact that I've got multiple Ambush markers means my opponent is usually on his back foot before the game even begins. I've even had opponents use the Scout MAR to redeploy their ships all the way out to the wrong side of the board to deal with what they thought might be a squadron of destroyers but turned out to be nothing at all. It was awesome!

 

You're free to like or dislike the Veydreth as you see fit, but for the honor and glory of the Star Dragons, I want to correct your misunderstandings of the fleet!

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So - just to redisintegrate what Electricpaladin just said.  :)

 

- Mines are awesome in the quantity veydreth can field. Some games ive destroyed half my opponents fleet with mines alone. If they disperse all over the board to avoid mines it reduces their tactical ability (and concertability of firepower) tremendously. And leaves you able to fire in all arcs with most of your ships.

As for rendering mines ineffective, with the amount of mines you have and the speed of your ships, this just isnt possible. There will always be something for the dragons to poop on.

 

-Ambush's utility is limited, never had much out of it. It can be useful on destroyers if you have the points for it. Ill have to hit up electric paladin to see how he builds his fleet before I disagree with him however.

Also I will say that it is very rare for an ambush to go really far south in the manner you describe it. After a game or two you will figure out where you can place terrain and ambush markers so that even if you opponent goes to discover it it will be hard to focus fire  - and if he does he'll have to put himself in a bad tactical position to do so.

 

Veydreth have their faults but randomness and easily counterable tactics are not among them.

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Thank you both for the clarifications in my perception. This has definitely pushed me towards pulling the trigger on the Veydreth. 

 

If you had to describe the "faults" of the Veydreth what would be your take? (I'd really like to hear from both Cas and ElectricPaladin on this)

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1) Massive competition for your reserve points

2) Ship fragility, especially corvettes, you need to know what gets through elusive.

3) Can have difficulty taking out tougher ships (dreadnoughts and tough battleships)

 

 

Ive been on here more or less all day. Spot the guy having a slow day at work :)

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1) Massive competition for your reserve points

2) Ship fragility, especially corvettes, you need to know what gets through elusive.

3) Can have difficulty taking out tougher ships (dreadnoughts and tough battleships)

 

 

Ive been on here more or less all day. Spot the guy having a slow day at work :)

 

Me, too! Spot the guy who's a teacher and has the summer off!  :D

 

Anyway, I basically agree with all of Cas's points. With Veydreth, you've got to worry about what's going to shunt in, and if you make the wrong choice for your list/scenario/opponent, you're in trouble. As raiders, it's all about messing your opponent up badly enough with the first volley that his ability to retaliate is sufficiently reduced. 

 

How much trouble taking out dreads and tough battleships?

 

 

Is the trouble because they're lacking in firepower? 

 

Basically, yeah. The best the Veydreth can do is 18 AD from the gunships, followed by a second best of 14 AD on almost everything else. That's... not really all that impressive. Impressive is 20+ AD. 18 AD from a T2 squadron is... aggressively mediocre. That's not to say that the gunships are bad, but remember that we're talking about the Veydreth in the context of just playing Veydreth. If you're playing them alongside Sorylians, who cares? You've probably got a Falcata squadron throwing 20 AD Scatter broadsides. But if you're just playing Veydreth, you've got fragile ships and mediocre AD... and that can be a problem.

 

The way you deal with this is to use High Energy beams to put a whole bunch of Hazard markers on your target, degrade its PD and CP until you can take it in assault and drive off with it.

 

But that's a one-two punch that can be hard to set up.

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I'd also point out you can win many a game without destroying the enemy Tier 1. Sometimes your better off ignoring the big bad wolf and focusing on all of his little buddies.

It is very satisfying to shunt away your last squadron leaving the enemy Admiral alone on the battlefield surrounded by the wreckage of his fleet even if that admiral is relatively unscathed.

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As a Dindrenzi player, 16AD is the best I can outside of:

6-wing Bomber Token

Dreadnought

Battlecruiser Squadron

So I state 18AD is NOT mediocre... Neither is 14AD. That's where my Praetorian tops out, and I've never been let down by it.

Ok, that's wrong... I almost always roll 12 misses on the first 14AD volley, but after that, it performs well.

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But the OP wanted tactics. Basically, Veydreth have two unit types.

Units in Reserve

Units in Ambush

Heavy Cruisers and Battleships are there to give your opponent something to shoot at until the rest of the fleet shows up. In general, Ambush everything else, and Reserve the Corvettes. You should be placing at least three Hidden Set-up markers every game, and one should be a dummy marker.

Also, understand that some units WANT to be uncovered by their opponent, so they can Assault then immediately. No one really wants to find out the marker they stumbled on is set to launch an 18AP assault.

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You are at Full Stop, but in order for an opponent to attempt a reveal a model must be within 8 inches of the hidden and marker. Then you follow the procedure:

When revealed, one model is placed at the coordinate, and all other models in its Squadron are placed within 2" of it.

This means, for a squadron of three models, at least two models can be within the 6 inch boarding assault range of one model which revealed them.

In addition, Veydreth prefer RB1; everyone else not as much. Advantage: Veydreth. Abstractly, this equates to each Veydreth Squadron deployed via Hidden Set-up as if it were a 16" diameter minefield with 12-14 AD. And you can place these minefields after your opponent deploys his entire fleet.

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Don't forget that whether the squadron that discovers a Hidden Setup Marker likes range band 1 or not, they will generally get a chance to shoot and / or assault the revealed squadron before the end of their activation. So, more like an abstract 16" diameter minefield with a delayed fuse you might have a chance to put out before it blows up. Also, Olga (new commander if anyone doesn't know about these yet) can cause reveal tests at 12". Just a note.

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