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Xystophoroi

The Persecution Dreadnought?

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Hi,

 

The Dreadnought is the big shiny thing on the fleet list...but I've not heard a lot of positivity about it.

 

What can people tel me about the big, many gunned dreadnought? If I want to bring something big along with my fleets should I be looking at allies instead?

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Our Dreadnought is great to take hits and attract some attention - so that the rest of its fleet is spared.

 

That's why it's a good idea to place your admiral on it. Otherwise, its firepower quickly decreases as it gets damaged.

 

If you want to do some damage at long range with a Dreadnought, you should see what our allies can offer.

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I tried it few times when I was forced to by tournament rules etc. and every single time it got pounded like hell before it can fire at RB2. It is very similar to Dindrenzi Dreadnought in this because it's defences are **** for a Dreadnought. Yep, it won't get critted, but will gather single hits really fast. In my last game it only did something because of the 8AD mine and dropping it on every opponent's tier 3 squadron. I see only one way to make it effective and that's reserves. If it starts on the table it won't get into RB2 without losing several HP.

In general I don't like to field Dreds as they soak up too many points and I prefer more squadrons, so that's one more reason I am totally ignoring Persecution.

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Hmm. Maybe I should write up a Tactica for the Persecution . . .

 

Well, here is a mini-version:

 

1) It costs a lot, like Kurgan said, and sometimes the points are better spent on having more squadrons for more activations and more models. Now all dreadnoughts cost a lot, but some other ones don't seem to remind people of that and are reliable performers for their cost (the Omnidyne Foundry)

2a) No Indirect Weapons. This means when you take damage or lose crew you lose a little bit of power from every attack.

2b) Double Degredation. The big dice pool on this beast comes from linking the turret with one of the primaries and chucking 20 AD at another big nasty target in range band 2.

2c) DR 6. There are four dreadnoughts that have DR 6. Six have DR 7, two have DR 8. DR 6 means it only takes 8-10 AD to reliably stick a point of damage on the Persecution, even with its 1 / 2 SH.

3a) Primaries . . ugh . . in the Directorate, a faction of PLASMA EVERYWHERE, primary weapons are a letdown due to the 8" range bands.

3b) 6" Mv, like many large ships, so not a big deal right? Wrong. 8" range bands means this hurts a lot, when compared to other Zenian dreadnoughts you could bring in its place.

4) The Persecution, point for point, has negligible range band 3 and mostly non-existing range band 4 firepower. Considering its cost could buy you two Deterrents with points to spare, this makes me sad.

 

So, let's get on to why it would be worth bringing along:

 

1) CR 13 with Reinforced(Fore). This makes it a lot less likely to get a critical hit from most attacks. Now a 20 AD attack will probably still do it, but that's a 20 AD attack.

2) MN 8! Woo! Mines! I love mines, and while 8 AD may not be the biggest mine layer you'll see, for the Directorate, it's solid, and as far as dreadnoughts go, only the Aquan Medusa has more, at 9.

3) AP 8. This can become 10, and you can get Second Assault. Even when your Persecution is getting beat to hell, it can still throw 10 AP boarding assaults twice per game. Even at 1 HP left.

4) 11 HP. Better than seven other dreadnoughts, tied with two others, lower than two others. I say lower, not worse, because it's still only 5 battle log for killing this, not 6. Take small victories where you can. Besides, 10 HP loss or 11, either way, this guy isn't doing anything except assaulting at that point.

5) It's BIG. I draws a lot of attention on the field. This generally causes it to get attacked a lot, meaning the rest of your fleet isn't getting attacked a lot. Use this to your advantage.

 

Okay, summary:

 

Want to take a big nasty Persecution and get your points worth? Reserve it. Shunting or flanking in allows this beast to come out and wreck face before it takes too much damage to be useful. It has no long range firepower and can be plinked at early game, so don't allow that to happen by reserving it. You won't be missing any firepower, and your dreadnought won't be getting hurt. Barring terrible luck such as losing your fleet before the dreadnought comes into play, you should be in a good position to scare your opponent senseless when a dreadnought appears in his aft arcs.

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Last month I am really toying with the idea to take Persecution into a game, but only with 3 Dindrenzi Escorts to further boost its firepower. As this is at least 350 points I am so far really only toying with the idea...

 

Foundry is a beast and with extra shield plus Self Repair is a good choice. If you take forward weapons then also add Synergies to either add few extra dice or to cancel any PD help to your target from his squadron.

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To be honest, all Dreadnoughts are expensive and so much of a fire magnet that you will be tempted to take a good accompaniment/SRS bodyguard with it anyway.

 

OSO Foundry is tough, but has a big disadvantage; it's slow as hell and when you have to turn (and you will have), it's a real pain in the ass if you don't have the Burn Thruster Tactical Card. Also, Allied Dreadnoughts can't have your Admiral on board. Can be annoying, sometimes, since it's usually the tougher ship of your fleet.

 

But then, if you want to make a Shunt Entry with your Dreadnought, that's not really a matter.

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So which Dreadnought would you suggest as a centerpiece model? The OSO Foundry?

 

Are you asking which model to paint the prettiest? Which model to make the foundation of your collection? Or what? If it's going to be a model you use all the time, in as many games as possible, make it something that fits that requirement. My "centerpiece" will end up being my Anarchist battleship, as I use it almost every time my Directorate hit the table. If you're just looking for a good looking model to paint well, get a Phantom battleship. If you're looking for a dreadnought specifically that fits your play style, try them all. The Persecution, Retribution, Apex, Banshee, Foundry and Armageddon are all usable by the Zenian League. Each does something different than the others, however slight or great that difference may be. The more I've played this game, the less I find that dreadnoughts are the end all be all of the game, as I initially believed. They are ships, like any other, and balancing their tactical use against their point cost is what it comes down to, just like with every other ship in the game. Honestly, when I jump a fleet from the patrol to battle level, adding a dreadnought is not my first wish, slipping in a pair of battlecruisers is usually my first go to for battle fleets and larger.

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Personally with the 15% sale now is the BEST time currently to get Omnidyne

 

So 1 Dread, 12 firgates 3 gunships

 

Part of me wants to buy 3 more gunships and a 2nd dread....BUT

 

I can't justify it 

 

Our dread is quite possiably bottom of my list....it probably goes, Omni (ok not pure Zen), Ralf, RSN, Denzi, maybe anything else then Directorate 

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I tried it few times when I was forced to by tournament rules etc. and every single time it got pounded like hell before it can fire at RB2. It is very similar to Dindrenzi Dreadnought in this because it's defences are **** for a Dreadnought. Yep, it won't get critted, but will gather single hits really fast. In my last game it only did something because of the 8AD mine and dropping it on every opponent's tier 3 squadron. I see only one way to make it effective and that's reserves. If it starts on the table it won't get into RB2 without losing several HP.

In general I don't like to field Dreds as they soak up too many points and I prefer more squadrons, so that's one more reason I am totally ignoring Persecution.[GRUMP}

I think this sums up the issue I have with the FSA fleet building rules.

 

In a wet navy pride-of-the-fleet ships (= FSA dreadnoughts) might be formed into a super heavy squadron of their own or be used to lead squadrons of battleships. They wouldn't be committed to unimportant battles without proper support, that's what cruisers are for. The reason for this is because such assets are expensive and time consuming to replace and their loss seriously affects national pride.

 

Lovely model though, I must get one for my Directorate!

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How about an Epic Play style format for games over 2000 points as an optional alternative to the Grand+Patrol/Battle/Grand system we currently have? Being able to form different squadrons/battlegroups in a manner similar to Halo were you could support a battleship with a pair of cruisers, gunships or pair 2 battleships together rather than simply battleship+escorts. Would need to be some detail work as balancing a pair of, for example, Nausicaa Class battleships with their huge AD that could then link together would potentially cause some balance issues as it would throw out more AD than the dreadnought, be harder to score BL from (though give up considerably more if destroyed), has added flexibility of targeting in different arcs etc.

 

I do think that Battle Fleet level is potentially a little low on the points scale to be fielding a Dreadnought given the implied cost, complexity and lead time in building one as well as NickH says about them supposed to be the pinnacle of martial prowess in an FSA fleet (until we get Leviathans) they seem overkill in such a situation. But equally, if it were only available at Grand Fleet then Leviathans would have to be purely in Mighty Armadas (which, actually, would make sense...).

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So... How do you think Dreadnoughts should be fielded within FSA? How would you modify the Fleet Building Rules, and why?

I don't have an answer but I think Varaken's Epic Play style is worth experimenting with.

 

I also acknowledge that Spartan need to sell product so tempt us with a steady stream of cool models…

What's great about them is that they don't discriminate against older minis  :)

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I agree a Battle Fleet is a little small for a Dreadnought, but for different reasons. At Adepticon, the dominant strategy was to take two battleships or a dreadnought and a battleship at 900 points. Or at 600 points, a battleship is basically too strong for that point level.

All said, the current system is way better than the old system. This does not mean it cannot be improved further though for game balance.

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I was trying to find a more fluff based reason than pure gameplay but it is a major contributing factor. My gaming group and I only really play at the upper limits (800, 1200, 2000) of MFV and even at 1200 a dread feels a bit cheesy. I could understand it if you were doing a themed scenario similar to the Battle for Valhalla mission where one player is ambushing a dreadnought in transit etc. but for basic gameplay they are a bit heavy handed for less than around 1500 points. A dread and battleship at 900 is just pure cheddar.

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I have to disagree on the cheese, and point you to one of the best articles on the subject:

http://www.fightingtigersofveda.com/roars6.htm

Fair point, perhaps cheese is the wrong term. It just feels wrong then to have such large fleet assets in such a small engagement. It feels like gaming the fleet building system in a manner that does not fit with my personal view of how fleets should be constructed. I fully accept that this is likely not the way everyone will see it but to me it flies in the face of the narrative which I hold to be important in any wargame. That being said, we were talking about tournament games which do not generally hold that to be important.

 

But, I feel this is getting off topic so I'll leave it at that so as to not derail the thread :) 

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DR 6 with 1 Shield and no strong defensive MARs like Stealth Systems or potentially Systems Network seems really bad to me.  I kind of feel like the useful life of an Anarchist might be longer in some situations since it either has more shields or stealth, can carry SRS by default for more PD (and caps higher, so it can field a decent offensive squadron), and has 2 indirect weapons to use while badly damaged.  

 

The strengths of the DN seem to be a decent array of weapons that can link with the turret, high HP, and really high CR.

 

However, most DNs have good projection in multiple arcs at once.  Usually with better ranges, better DR, often while carrying more fighters...  Moreover, bringing 2 direct weapons to bear on a target AND tanking through high HP don't seem to work together all that well since if the extra HP over other ships is coming, the weapons are getting degraded quickly.  Also, shunting the Persecution in from reserves means needing either another expensive T1 or being without an admiral early game - which is also a big problem with taking a Foundry.

 

It just does not seem like a ship that's a Battleship and half (give or take).  Whereas DNs like a Foundry, Banshee, or to switch sides, Aquan Krakens and some other Kurak ships do seem worth ~1.5 BBs.  

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Yeah, I totally agree, the Persecution is so underpowered. CR 14 just is far too low on the front, come on guys what kind of terrible value is that. It could have cyber warfare, more beam dice, more hull points and definitely needs a points decrease. Who would ever take it over the Anarchist, which also needs buffs!

 

Penguin ;):P:D:lol:

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Yeah, I totally agree, the Persecution is so underpowered. CR 14 just is far too low on the front, come on guys what kind of terrible value is that. It could have cyber warfare, more beam dice, more hull points and definitely needs a points decrease. Who would ever take it over the Anarchist, which also needs buffs!

 

Penguin ;):P:D:lol:

 

Is a CR 14 in the front all a ship needs to be good though?  

 

People who would rather take an allied DN are generally already saying that they're willing to give up CR to get other stuff they value more.

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Well said warmagon

Yes CR 14 means that critting it is difficult - but I'd still nearly always reach for the foundary...but actually doing this has given me more respect for our dread as I've never really broken it down....so read on....

 

Assuming we go all out for kitting them out

 

Persecution - 355 points

 

DR 6/13(14 fore)

 

11 HP, 10AP with second assault and special forces, 8 mines 2 sheilds, MV 6 TL1, 7 Point defence

We have a fore fixed with decimator, range 8 - 8/12/6

Starboard port decimator range 8 8/12/6

 

Bio Hazard turrents  range 10 12/14/6/3

 

+ all the directorate goodies - elite crew and superior designs, and impervious....

So maybe a little lacking the raw power department, or board control....but I think it could wreck formations at close range....

Assuming you can roll 12 dice (8.01 - 16") agaisnt a frigate or cruiser squadron....you crit and if they fail the check....The beams focus on a big juicy target, and with some cyber support you plan a takeover with some boarding

So while not there to smash big heavy targets it is there to sow disorder, and then you mop up, it's no so much a sniper rifle as a blunderbuss and sometimes, that could be brutal, suspect a Ba'kesh swarm coming your way - let this take centre field and ruin their day

 

Moving on

 

The Foundary - 370 points

 

7/12 damage rateing - so easier to crit harder to dmg 

 

Movement 5 TL 1 - more of a tug...certainly less nimble, CP 10 over pers's 7 - minor point, 6AP, meh, PD 8 so 1 better, 2 shields again - no mines....

 

However weaponry

 

Assault torps- bands 12 - 12/12/10/10

Fore beams - bands 10 - 14/16/10/9
Starboard and ports beams - 8/10/6/4

bio torps - bands 12 - 11/11/9/9

 

A wave of 6 bombers

 

Then 2 interceptors

 

This thing is deadly at any range....The beams at upto 30" are at a minimum of 10 dice...that threatens cruisers with crits....and then assault torpedoes,  normal torpedoes 

It doesn't like having it's fore shut down....so may be worth CONSIDERING support shuttles over interceptors

 

Self repair helps heal  dings, but so much is secondary weapons.....protected systems and superior design help

You have to agree that's just plain scarrier and 15 points more....

You have lots more weapons, wings, presence, etc

Sure it doesn't disrupt as much, control as much it just applies the ultimate debuff, death 

 

TL:DR

 

Persecution class is a weapon of mass distraction and confusion, foundry is a weapon of mass destruction - One plows up the centre sowing chaos, the other plods in and wrecks stuff 

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I personally wouldn't use the persecution, there is always a cheaper option that can do it's job better, if you want someting to take hits, just look at the directorate carrier, if you want boarding assaults, look at the anarchist class battleship, if you want firepower, you better of with gunship and cruiser squadrens, the persecution is a lot of points to dump on one ship, and it's pretty easy to counter, espeacially since those 11 hull points really don't do it much good, at 1 hull point, that ships strongest attack is 8 (mines) second is the beam turret at 4, and then primary coming in at 2, but those 11 hull pints still count against you in scoring, if you want a dreadnought, use the foundry, a lot of firepower, at great range, you can give it wings or sheilds, and don't forget self repair, on a ship with a DR of 7, that ends up being extremely useful, it's slow, but that works to it's advantage, and 2 of it's 3 possible fore weopons are hindered by point defense, but I think it's still a good option for some fleet lists

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These are my exact issues with the Persecution. The Foundry, Banshee, Armageddon, Retribution and Apex are all better options (in that order, in my opinion). Sure, you would have to take another tier 1 to be your Admiral's vessel, but that's not really a bad thing. Even outside of dread for dread replacement, there are many other Directorate squadrons I would rather have for the cost of the Persecution or less, like Subjagators! 240 points for three heavy cruisers. More HP, More AP, cloaks, and worth a lot less BL. Gunships, even fully upgraded, are 200 points, and you still get two of those dreadnought cannons, mines and torpedoes. For nearly half the cost, and almost as much firepower, an Eliminator battleship can be included. Sure, the Persecution can do a bunch of things, but it doesn't do any of them better than any other cheaper option the Directorate can field, and I don't really see generalist ships as the kings of FSA. In my experience, specialist ships are the ones who get their cake and get to eat it too.

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The biggest issue with Persecution is closing the distance to the targets as unless the terrain is just perfect or your opponent ignores it, Persecution won't arrive without suffering serious damage. You can reserve it and then hope for it to arrive around turn 2-3, but that's a pretty huge gamble and you need your admiral on another ship. All this can be mitigated a bit by taking hardpoints for extra movement and using Drives to Maximum from turn 1. You can also take Dindrenzi escorts to add extra AD - either your opponent will target them and Persecution will arrive safely or Persecution will suffer some damage and escorts will boost his firepower back to ugly levels. Also new invasion scenarios have deploments much closer to each other and it's not an issue to get into 16" range by turn 2, even in turn 1 it's possible. I manage that in my last game and Persecution was a beast...without suffering a point of damage it just rampaged through the enemy fleet.

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