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The Warcradle Team

MrMoo

Question about mines

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Hey folks,

 

There's been a bit of debate in our group about how mines work. Here's the scenario:

 

You have a squad of four frigates (A, B, C and D) in close formation. An enemy dumps a mine on them in a fly-by, so, they are all within 4" of it. The frigates then activate, and we're unclear exactly how things play out.

 

1) Frigate A activates, and triggers the mine. All ships within 4" (A, B, C and D) take a hit. Frigate A completes his movement and flies out of range. Frigate B activates, and the mines trigger again. Frigates B, C and D all take another hit, and then Frigate B moves out of range. Frigate C activates, and triggers the mines again, once more hitting everyone in 4" (C and D), and so on. Essentially, every individual ship triggers a 4" blast that hits everyone still within the mine's range.

 

2) Frigate A activates, and triggers the mine. All ships within 4" (A, B, C and D) take a hit. Frigate A completes his movement and flies out of range. Frigate B activates, and triggers the mine. ONLY Frigate B is hit. It then completes it's movement and ends out of range. Frigate C activates and triggers the mine. ONLY Frigate C is hit, and then moves, etc. Essentially, the first ship triggers a 4" blast that hits everyone, and then every other ship is hit individually (again) as it moves. This would mean Frigate A is taking one hit, and everyone else is taking two hits.

 

3) Frigate A activates, and triggers the mine. All ships within 4" (A, B, C and D) take a hit. All ships then activate and move as normal, and take no further hits.

 

4) Something else?

 

Could someone clarify what exactly would happen here?

 

Thanks in advance!

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Number three is the correct one. The mine goes off once and hits everything within 4" of it. A ship can only get hit once by any given mine token.

Ok, had to rewrite this part. The mine is triggered when the first ship moves to within 4". All ships within 4" receive the mine blast. The reason the other three would not receive another blast from this same token is that they are already within it's 4" bubble and cannot "move to within the 4" like the book outlines.

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Spellduckwrong, did they change the ruling recently? Correct me if I'm wrong, but pages 68 and 69 of the v2 rule book describe the sequence of the mines. Each ship in the squadron that is within 4" of the mine from its stem will activate the mine and all ships within that 4" range will receive damage. The mine is removed once all the ships in the squadron have completed their movement.

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Spellduckwrong, did they change the ruling recently? Correct me if I'm wrong, but pages 68 and 69 of the v2 rule book describe the sequence of the mines. Each ship in the squadron that is within 4" of the mine from its stem will activate the mine and all ships within that 4" range will receive damage. The mine is removed once all the ships in the squadron have completed their movement.

I rewrote what I just said, I was thinking of a slightly different scenario.

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Ok, had to rewrite this part. The mine is triggered when the first ship moves to within 4". All ships within 4" receive the mine blast. The reason the other three would not receive another blast from this same token is that they are already within it's 4" bubble and cannot "move to within the 4" like the book outlines.

 

Oh, that makes sense. I missed that part that they are already within the 4".

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Oh, so hold up. You're saying that mines only trigger when a ship moves TO within 4" of it? Does that mean that if a mine is dropped on top of a ship, that ship activates and it is already within 4" of the mine, the mine does not trigger?

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Oh, so hold up. You're saying that mines only trigger when a ship moves TO within 4" of it? Does that mean that if a mine is dropped on top of a ship, that ship activates and it is already within 4" of the mine, the mine does not trigger?

Negative. The untriggered mine initially goes off when an activated enemy ship is within 4" at any part of its movement. At which point it halts, takes its potential damage (along with anything else within 4") before carrying out the remainder of its movement. The "move to within" part is just for the other ships in the activated squadron that did not initially set the mine token off. Those ships have the option of driving around the blast, if able.

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Hmmm....there's a question in the FAQ about triggering mines.

 

Q: Do models at Full Stop trigger mines within 4"

A: Yes. Any enemy ship within 4" of a mine will trigger it during the movement phase of its activation, regardless of whether it physically moves or not.

 

This makes me think MrMoo's first option is again valid. Can you clarify please Spellduckwrong?

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Ahh, okay. So the first ship to activate INSIDE 4" of the mine triggers one single 4" blast. Subsequent blasts are ONLY triggered by a new model ENTERING the 4" mine radius. Further ships activating ALREADY WITHIN the 4" radius do NOT trigger blasts. Right?

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Nitpicking: You don't activate models, you activate the squadron. Then you move (or not, in case of a full stop) the individual models. The mine is only "triggered" once and then attacks each model within range and each model that comes within range during this activation.

 

- You activate the squadron

- the mine is triggered and attacks all models in range

- you move each (surviving) model

- as all your Frigates have already been inside the blast, they don't move to within 4" and therefore are not attacked again

- had one of your frigates been outside 4" and move to within 4" of the mine it would suffer an attack, but would not trigger another blast

 

Edit: Well, after reading again I have to admit that the rules do talk about activating models sometimes,so the term is not as clearly defined as I thought. :(

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The debate seems to center on this part of the rules, on page 60:

Once this has been resolved, the model may complete the rest of its movement. However, the Mine Marker is not removed until the end of the current Squadron’s movement phase. Any other models that move to within 4" of the Marker must receive an Attack with the same number of Attack Dice as the first.

The way I understand it, if a model has already relieved an Attack from this Mine Marker (when it is first triggered) then the condition "must receive an Attack" is already satisfied, so subsequent Attacks do not happen for these models.

I can see why someone would think it works as described as OP #2, I've explained why I say it's #3... I cannot see any way to get to #1. I also think the rules as written never considered the possibility a squadron could start its activation fully within 4" of an enemy Mine Marker. If they had, this scenario would have been specifically addressed.

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Having mines hit a single ship 4+ times because it's part of a larger squadron and did not activate promptly seems intuitively wrong.  Perhaps some clarification might be added to the rule, something along the lines of "A model may only be attacked by a given mine token one time during that squadron's activation".  

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Having mines hit a single ship 4+ times because it's part of a larger squadron and did not activate promptly seems intuitively wrong.  Perhaps some clarification might be added to the rule, something along the lines of "A model may only be attacked by a given mine token one time during that squadron's activation".  

 

Yeah, that idea came about because it seemed strange that the first model would trigger a 4" explosion which hits everyone, and then every subsequent model would be treated differently. It looks like everyone seems to agree that there's only ever one attack against any given model from a single mine, but, there wasn't really anywhere that stated that clearly, except one line that said "A model may be hit by mines twice IF it moves in to a second mine." But that was in a different section, and didn't seem to exclude the possibility of being hit twice by the same mine, so, we couldn't really find anything definitive one way or another. Appreciate all the clarification, though.

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Having mines hit a single ship 4+ times because it's part of a larger squadron and did not activate promptly seems intuitively wrong. Perhaps some clarification might be added to the rule, something along the lines of "A model may only be attacked by a given mine token one time during that squadron's activation".

I must disagree. The rule in the book is clear:

Triggering Mines

If, during its movement, a model comes within 4" of

an enemy Mine Marker, it must immediately halt.

This model and any other models (friendly or enemy)

currently within 4" of the Mine Marker receive an

Attack with a number of Attack Dice equal to the Mine’s

Attack Dice value.

Roll separately for each model within range of the

Mine. These Attack Dice do not receive negative ‘to hit’

modifiers. They always roll successes on 4, 5 or 6 (or

better). Shield Systems apply as normal.

Once this has been resolved, the model may complete

the rest of its movement. However, the Mine Marker is

not removed until the end of the current Squadron’s

movement phase. Any other models that move to within

4" of the Marker must receive an Attack with the same

number of Attack Dice as the first.

Nowhere in the above, does it say anything about all models taking a second or third or fourth attack or the mine "retriggering". Only when the mine is triggered or when a model/token enters the area of effect. The mine remaining in place to mark where the mine was centered, so if other models in the same squadron during the same activation enter the area they are affected. A squadrons movement happens "simultaneously". It reads very clearly to me.

Sometimes rules lawyers spend too much time playing the rules and not playing the game. :angry:

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It amazes me the things that cause confusion, though I guess if people remember the 1.5 history it's more clear.  In 1.5 the mine would go off when a ship moved within 4" then get immediately removed.  This led to a regular and ridiculous play technique of deliberately running a single frigate or escort into the mine to "clear it" or get it out of the way, so the rest of the squadron could move on unharmed.

 

The complete intent of the 2.0 rule is to better represent that a squadron would really be moving together, even if for game mechanic purposes it gets abstracted into moving one ship, then another, then another, etc...Thus in 2.0 when a mine goes off (it can still only explode once!) it effectively creates a 4" zone of destruction that lasts until the end of the entire squadron's movement phase.  In no way is it intended to let a single mine token attack the same ship multiple times!

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Well, the confusion here was because all four frigates in this case are starting inside the range of the mine. The first guy activates, and the mine hits everyone in 4". Then it says anyone moving in to 4" of the mine takes a hit, so, we assumed the other ships would be hit again. You might say "Ah, but they're not moving in to within 4" of the mine", but, neither did the first guy, and he still set it off, so, why wouldn't the rest of them? I get that the wording is a little different for secondary targets, but, it was still a little ambiguous to us. Hell, as someone pointed out, even a ship sitting there at full stop would generate hits.

 

This, combined with the fact that it doesn't seem to explicitly say anywhere that a ship can only be hit one time by a mine led to some debate over how things should work.

 

But I understand now, so thanks everyone who helped clarify!

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I get how they were confused, and I don't think it was anyone trying to rules lawyer. If anything, they didn't rules lawyer enough. :)

I don't think this rule needs much clarification because this is the first time I've seen this question. It would seem that they just got dragged down a rule rabbit hole. Happens to nearly everyone at one point or another.

Thankfully, Vanguards to the rescue!

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Hmmm....there's a question in the FAQ about triggering mines.

 

Q: Do models at Full Stop trigger mines within 4"

A: Yes. Any enemy ship within 4" of a mine will trigger it during the movement phase of its activation, regardless of whether it physically moves or not.

 

This makes me think MrMoo's first option is again valid. Can you clarify please Spellduckwrong?

You can think of "triggering" as the initial event that hits all ships within 4" and then projects the bubble which will also hit any new models that move within its radius. That bubble evaporates after the squadron that triggered it has completed its activation.
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