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Syro

SRS movement question

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The key thing to remember is that during the Squadron's movement phase, SRS have to return to base if they end their movement outside of Command Distance of their Carrier.

 

I have no problem with that, but there is something wrong in the rules written page 90 in the section "Out of Coherency";

 

"If, for any reason other than making an Attack Run or an Intercept Move, a SRS token is outside of its parent Carrier's Command Distance, it immediately Return to Base."

 

So, I'd really like to follow that A option but I would like to ask where it is allowed in the rules? As far as I read them, I have a doubt and tend to think it would be the B option as rules are written.

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This is there to cover the instances where carrier is faster than the SRS is question, for example by using Drives to Maximum or Gravitational Slingshot, and the carrier get so far ahead SRS can't keep up and ends outside command.

You check squadron coherency at the end of the movement segment and you just can't check coherency nonstop as you would be moving ships out and in coherency. With carriers it would mean you launch SRS, then move the carrier outside coherency with its escort and put SRS back on board as you are disordered. You check coherency and command ranges after you finish all movements. As all SRS actions occur in Primary Movement segment you check it at the end of this segment.

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I honestly understand your arguments (and actually would really like to follow them), but I can't find anything in the rules saying exactly that.

 

You check coherency and command ranges after you finish all movements. As all SRS actions occur in Primary Movement segment you check it at the end of this segment.

 

Trouble is, that rule only concerns models. SRS Token aren't models and nowhere in Movement section, you can read anything about checking for SRS Token at the end of this segment.

 

Thus, I can't find nothing in the rules going against that "Out of Coherency" section in page 90. To me, "for any reason" means that if your Carrier moves out of Command Distance from your SRS Token, then that SRS token must Return to Base - because that can be one of the reasons.

 

Maybe I missed something elsewhere? I'm looking after quotes in the rules, 'cause you know..."if it is not written, then it does not exist".

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Under Move SRS tokens

"However, unless a SRS Token is making an Attack Run it CANNOT move outside of its parent Carrier’s Command Distance."

note that this sentence says the SRS cannot move out of command, given that the carrier moves before the token even has the chance to move this makes sense

then we get to the Out of Coherence blurb.

Now given that the basic priciple of reading law (and rules) revolves around 1. not being able to bind the impossible and 2. taking the simplest explanation unless further clarified.

The simplest reading to deconflict the issue is that the SRS checks command at the end of its movement (working in priciple like every other moveable object in this game).  Because the other reading would result in SRS tokens having to RTB without even having the chance to move which is strange.
However I can see your point that if the authors were trying to make carriers slow down if they were dragging SRS behind them or some such.

While I agree with Kurgan on how its supposed to work, some words from Spartan Alex wouldent hurt.

 

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Under Move SRS tokens

"However, unless a SRS Token is making an Attack Run it CANNOT move outside of its parent Carrier’s Command Distance."

note that this sentence says the SRS cannot move out of command, given that the carrier moves before the token even has the chance to move this makes sense

 

Trouble with the rule in Move SRS Token is that it has nothing to do with the Carrier's Movement. It just says the token can't go outside of its Carrier's Command Distance while making its own move, thus limiting the place he can go.

 

In that case, don't you think the simplest way as noticed in your point 2 for reading laws and rules would be, in fact, just making the SRS Token a Return to Base rather than trying to justify they can actually move first before checking for the conditions of "Out of Coherency"? Because, well...you don't have to fully move your Carrier so that its SRS token goes out of its Command Distance range - you can play it so that you can avoid that.

 

Just a matter of point of view, I know. But indeed, I would like to know what was the spirit of this rule. Because if it is option B...I can totally see the utility behind all those Hardpoints options to upgrade the Carrier's Command Distance. And the Quick Launch MAR becomes even more important for a fast Carrier...

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People have told you the spirit of the rule several times now (including several of us who were on the beta team), you just keep arguing against it.  The carrier, not the token, moved and created the out of command situation.  Therefore, unless it makes an attack run, the token has to move back into coherency.  That *IS* the intent and spirit of the rule (and arguably the letter as well, since you're hung up on a condition--out of coherency--that only applies after the TOKEN's move, not the carriers).

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Sorry, I don't know the names of the people who made the beta. I was used to games where only those who wrote the rules truly know what is their spirit. I just have to adapt myself to Spartan Games style - which I really like. ;)

 

Like I said, I totally understand your point of view. It's just that...if someone argues with me while pointing that "Out of Coherency" section, I wouldn't be able to counter his arguments if I can't find a passage in the rules saying that SRS Tokens do indeed check for Out of Coherency AFTER their move in the Movement Segment (after all, Interceptors work out of the Movement Segment and the "for any reason" precision can give doubts).

 

The trouble here is that no one has given a specific passage in the rules saying exactly that. All I feel you're saying is "you're dumb, the spirit is that so that's how you must play". That's not really constructive.

 

 

That *IS* the intent and spirit of the rule (and arguably the letter as well, since you're hung up on a condition--out of coherency--that only applies after the TOKEN's move, not the carriers).

 

Honestly, no, it's not the letter - or you're really biased when you read the rules. Taking it into account without any other knowledge doesn't necessarily come to your conclusions - because nowhere in the rules it is said the SRS Token work like models (quite the opposite in many situations, in fact). So you can't say that the way it works for models in Movement Segment works the same for SRS token, when it is not explicitly written as such in the SRS rules.

 

But like I said before, I'm not really a big fan of Option B. It's just like this I played first when reading the rules, until I began to ask myself questions when navigating on this forum and wondering why people moved their Carriers so far after launching their SRS tokens. So, it may seem obvious to you, but not necessarily to everyone.

 

That's why I believe the wording could be better in that case if it is really Option A.

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I'll try to make this as clear as possible for SRS

First, Squadron Coherency only applies to Models, not Tokens, per the rules on page 53.

From page 87:

If (a Token) does not perform an Attack Run, it must move to, and/ or remain within, its parent Carrier’s Command Distance. If it is unable to do so, it immediately Returns to Base.

This allows for a Token to be outside of its "parent Carrier's Command Distance", such as when the Parent Carrier moves and leaves the Token behind.

Page 88, Move SRS Token

However, unless a SRS Token is making an Attack Run it CANNOT move outside of its parent Carrier’s Command Distance.

This creates the potential for a rule incoherence; one rule seems to state a Token can move, the other it cannot move. More on that later.

Page 90, Out of Coherency

If, for any reason other than making an Attack Run or an Intercept Move, a SRS Token is outside of its parent Carrier’s Command Distance, it immediately Returns to Base.

This rule does not apply to when a Carrier and Token are within their Activation segment, as that entire procedure has concluded. This particular rule applies any other time, such as if an opponent uses a Gravity Weapon to push/pull a Carrier, causing the Token to be outside Command Distance.

So the only issue I see is with Rules 1 & 2. To me, there are two ways to interpret Rule 2:

1) A Token is not allowed to move when outside Command Distance

2) A Token is not allowed to move outside Command Distance when it is already within Command Distance.

One of these interpretations causes a rule conflict; the other does not.

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First, thank you for your contribution, Ryjak. Still, I find something wrong with your reasoning.

 

 

Page 87 quote
This allows for a Token to be outside of its "parent Carrier's Command Distance", such as when the Parent Carrier moves and leaves the Token behind.

 

This is in fact an interpretation from the rule. As it is written, it only says the token must move and/or remain within Command Distance of the Carrier, otherwise it immediately Return to Base. It doesn't say that a token outside of Command Distance of its Carrier has the right to move so that it can come back inside this "safe zone".

 

So this part doesn't actually allow the Token to do that.

 

 

 

Page 88, Move SRS Token
This creates the potential for a rule incoherence; one rule seems to state a Token can move, the other it cannot move. More on that later.

 

 

 

If you take into account my upper remark, then there is no rule incoherence. This is just a precision that you can't move outside of Command Distance unless you make an Attack Run or an Intercept Move.

 

Then comes this part;

 

 

 

Page 90, Out of Coherency
This rule does not apply to when a Carrier and Token are within their Activation segment, as that entire procedure has concluded. This particular rule applies any other time, such as if an opponent uses a Gravity Weapon to push/pull a Carrier, causing the Token to be outside Command Distance.

 

 

 

Again, I must ask: why are you saying this rule doesn't apply to that situation? Where in the wording did you read that? Because that's totally not what is written. That's the flaw of your reasoning so far in this topic; you start from the idea Option A is the only one that can exist and then try to justify it by making words saying what they do not. I'm sorry, but I can't agree with that reasoning.

 

I can see other times when that wording can "activate" the Out of Coherency condition. One of them would be...having the SRS token out of Command Distance because the Carrier moves too far away (Return to Base, case solved, better take that into account next time). Since SRS token activate in a particular way, after all models in its squadron, and seeing that page 53 rule indeed only concerns models, it would be a mistake to assume SRS token should work the same way as models in that particular situation.

 

If you take that interpretation, then there is, in fact, no incoherence. It is just a situation answered by the rules as they are written - Option B, as in the first post of this topic.

 

So when you give that conclusion:

 

 

 

So the only issue I see is with Rules 1 & 2. To me, there are two ways to interpret Rule 2:

1) A Token is not allowed to move when outside Command Distance
2) A Token is not allowed to move outside Command Distance when it is already within Command Distance.

One of these interpretations causes a rule conflict; the other does not.

 

 

 

This is only true if we follow your interpretation of the former rules. But there is the matter; that's only an interpretation, and the rules as they are written don't say that.

 

I don't try to be obtuse and I agree the RAI is certainly the one towards Option A, but RAW there is still a doubt. There should be an addition in page 90 "Out of Coherency" so that it solves the situation when you have the SRS token outside of its Carrier's Command Distance before it moves in its Movement Segment.

 

Otherwise, the answer is not so obvious as you try to make it sound, IMHO.

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The obvious answer is: Magarch is right. The rule is not clearly written as intended. A simple "We meant ..." from Spartan will make it clear. Or shatter the world by telling us we all played it the wrong way.

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[...]

From page 87:

Quote

If (a Token) does not perform an Attack Run, it must move to, and/ or remain within, its parent Carrier’s Command Distance. If it is unable to do so, it immediately Returns to Base.

This allows for a Token to be outside of its "parent Carrier's Command Distance", such as when the Parent Carrier moves and leaves the Token behind.

 

This is in fact an interpretation from the rule. As it is written, it only says the token must move and/or remain within Command Distance of the Carrier, otherwise it immediately Return to Base. It doesn't say that a token outside of Command Distance of its Carrier has the right to move so that it can come back inside this "safe zone".

 

So this part doesn't actually allow the Token to do that.

 

My english is not perfect, but this sounds wrong because RAW:

If (a Token) does not perform an Attack Run, it must move to, and/ or remain within, its parent Carrier’s Command Distance.

If it has to "move to" it has to be outside the command distance and still be able to move.

 

 

Page 88, Move SRS Token

Quote

However, unless a SRS Token is making an Attack Run it CANNOT move outside of its parent Carrier’s Command Distance.

This creates the potential for a rule incoherence; one rule seems to state a Token can move, the other it cannot move. More on that later.

 

 

If you take into account my upper remark, then there is no rule incoherence. This is just a precision that you can't move outside of Command Distance unless you make an Attack Run or an Intercept Move.

 

And again, my english is not perfect, but as far as i know this is readeable as "[...] it CANNOT move [to] outside of its parent Carrier’s Command Distance". Meaning it can not leav the commanddistance on its own.

This would fit perfectly. And its no interpretation, no rewording, just rules of grammar as i remember them (may be wrong).

 

Then comes this part;

 

Page 90, Out of Coherency

Quote

If, for any reason other than making an Attack Run or an Intercept Move, a SRS Token is outside of its parent Carrier’s Command Distance, it immediately Returns to Base.

 

This is more tricky. It contradicts the other two.

Here comes interpretation: as long as the condition is checket permanently. When only checkt at the end of SRS movement (like by models) it fits fine.

 

 

Again, I must ask: why are you saying this rule doesn't apply to that situation? Where in the wording did you read that? Because that's totally not what is written. [...]

 

I can see other times when that wording can "activate" the Out of Coherency condition. One of them would be...having the SRS token out of Command Distance because the Carrier moves too far away (Return to Base, case solved, better take that into account next time). Since SRS token activate in a particular way, after all models in its squadron, and seeing that page 53 rule indeed only concerns models, it would be a mistake to assume SRS token should work the same way as models in that particular situation.

 

If you take that interpretation, then there is, in fact, no incoherence. It is just a situation answered by the rules as they are written - Option B, as in the first post of this topic.

[...]

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Page 90 has four sets of procedures (ACTIVE POINT DEFENCE ATTACKS, OUT OF COHERENCY, DESTROYED CARRIERS, SPLIT BERTHS) which have nothing to do with the procedure for 'ACTIVATING SRS TOKENS'. This is indicated by the Font Size used for each title block.

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My english is not perfect, but this sounds wrong because RAW:

If (a Token) does not perform an Attack Run, it must move to, and/ or remain within, its parent Carrier’s Command Distance.

If it has to "move to" it has to be outside the command distance and still be able to move.

 

Not necessarily. It just says that it must do so or remain inside the said Command Distance otherwise it's Return to Base.

 

For example, if the token is outside of Command Distance and doesn't move because of any reason (game effect that may appear during the game or just the player deciding not to do so, thus making it automatically Return to Base).

 

The case of the token dropped outside Command Distance and Carrier moving too far away is simply not treated here. It is under the "Out of Coherency" part.

 

 

 

And again, my english is not perfect, but as far as i know this is readeable as "[...] it CANNOT move [to] outside of its parent Carrier’s Command Distance". Meaning it can not leav the commanddistance on its own.

 

 

 

Like Reddwarf said, the launched token didn't move. The Carrier did. So our case here is again not treated in this part.

 

 

 

 

This is more tricky. It contradicts the other two.

Here comes interpretation: as long as the condition is checket permanently. When only checkt at the end of SRS movement (like by models) it fits fine.

 

 

 

The annoyance with this interpretation is that nowhere in "Out of Coherency" part it is written the time when you check for the condition to activate. That's what is lacking in the rules. So far, as it is written...well, it could be ANY time. And that would be here our case of the SRS token being out of Command Distance before even moving during the Movement Segment because of the Carrier moving too far away would be treated; so answer would be Option B, to me.

 

 

Page 90 has four sets of procedures (ACTIVE POINT DEFENCE ATTACKS, OUT OF COHERENCY, DESTROYED CARRIERS, SPLIT BERTHS) which have nothing to do with the procedure for 'ACTIVATING SRS TOKENS'. This is indicated by the Font Size used for each title block.

 

Trouble is, Spartan Alex has already said for another rule question that the way rules are written doesn't especially means there is a particular order of prevalence (cf the question about when a Squadron leaves the board by having 2 FSD markers on it).

 

So I'm not sure this proves anything in one or the other way.

 

I don't know if Spartan Alex intends to come in and give his point of view or not, but it sure would be nice if that was the case.

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Not necessarily. It just says that it must do so or remain inside the said Command Distance otherwise it's Return to Base.

 

For example, if the token is outside of Command Distance and doesn't move because of any reason (game effect that may appear during the game or just the player deciding not to do so Sorry, thats impossible because [...]it must move to[...], thus making it automatically Return to Base).

 

The case of the token dropped outside Command Distance and Carrier moving too far away is simply not treated here. It is under the "Out of Coherency" part.

 

Ok, i try it another way.

 

Start with the original text again:

If (a Token) does not perform an Attack Run, it must move to, and/ or remain within, its parent Carrier’s Command Distance.

Up to the first comma of the text is a condition - everything after the first comma only applys if no attack run is performed.

The 2nd comma divides 2 different cases:

a) it [the SRS token] must move to[...]

B) it [the SRS token] must remain within[...]

The last part defines the place the 2 cases are ferering to.

 

I take it we agree on the first and last part so i would like to discuss the 2 different cases.

Case B) states the SRS token hast to remain within command distance. No one argues about this so...

Case a) states the SRS token hast to move to command distance. Fact: it is impossible to move to a place when you are already there! So the token has to be somewere else. Every place beeing not the command distance has to be outside command distance (per definition). (For what reason ever - maybe the carrier has moved)

So in conclusion there hast to be at least one way (beside an attack run) to have a SRS token (temporarily) outside of command distance. And because it must move [back] to command distance it must still be able to move while being outside of command distance.

 

 

 

Like Reddwarf said, the launched token didn't move. The Carrier did. So our case here is again not treated in this part.

 

 

I wanted to say when read like "[...] it CANNOT move [to] outside of its parent Carrier’s Command Distance" the token is not prohibited to move while it is outside command distance, it just can't leave the command distance on its own (and it dont has to do so to be in this situation - may be the carrier has moved).

 

 

This is more tricky. It contradicts the other two.

Here comes interpretation: as long as the condition is checket permanently. When only checkt at the end of SRS movement (like by models) it fits fine.

 

 

The annoyance with this interpretation is that nowhere in "Out of Coherency" part it is written the time when you check for the condition to activate. That's what is lacking in the rules. So far, as it is written...well, it could be ANY time. And that would be here our case of the SRS token being out of Command Distance before even moving during the Movement Segment because of the Carrier moving too far away would be treated; so answer would be Option B, to me.

 

If the condition would be checked permanently there would be no possibility a SRS token could be outside of command distance, but there has to be one because of "[...] it must move to[...]" (see above) so it is not checked permanently. The difficult point is to figure out at what time its checked.

 

 

Trouble is, Spartan Alex has already said for another rule question that the way rules are written doesn't especially means there is a particular order of prevalence (cf the question about when a Squadron leaves the board by having 2 FSD markers on it).

 

So I'm not sure this proves anything in one or the other way.

 

I don't know if Spartan Alex intends to come in and give his point of view or not, but it sure would be nice if that was the case.

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This has become far more complicated than it needs to be. It's important to understand Spartan Games uses Procedural Rules: they describe the method for how to play the game in a sequential process. In other words, follow step 1, then follow step 2.

The OP has a valid question; what is the procedure for moving an SRS token when, during the Squadron's Activation Segment, the parent carrier moves such that the Token is outside Command Distance?

The overall procedure for moving an SRS Token happens during the Parent Carrier's Squadron Primary Movement Segment, and has three steps:

1. Declare any Attack Runs

2. Move SRS Token

3. Declare any Attacks or Boarding Assaults

The OP Scenario can only apply during Step 1, if no Attack Runs are Declaired. Here is the procedure for this specific situation:

If it does not perform an Attack Run, it must move to, and/ or remain within, its parent Carrier’s Command Distance. If it is unable to do so, it immediately Returns to Base.

That's it. All the rules governing the procedure for moving an SRS Token during the Parent Carrier's Primary Movement Segment end on page 89.

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I had to switch to the mobile friendly site in preparations of posting this.

I hate mobile sites.

SRS Tokens activate at the same time as their parent Carrier. All of their actions take place during the Primary Movement Segment of the Carrier's activation, after all models within the Squadron squadron have finished their Primary Movement. SRS SRS Tokens use the following sequence:

The bulleted list following that paragraph explicitly states when Return To Base checks occur, the first one not happening until after the SRS Token has moved, and any attacks or dogfights have been resolved.

Coherency.

At the end of the Secondary Movement segment, the Commander should ensure that all models are within coherency.

Secondary movement does not begin until after the end of the primary, in which all SRS movement takes place. As per the rules, you move the squadron and SRS tokens before checking for coherency.

However, unless a SRS Token is making an Attack Run, it CANNOT move outside of its parent Carrier's Command Distance.

This explicitly states that SRS can't voluntarily move outside of Command Distance without declaring an Attack Run. The Carrier, however, can due to the Primary Movement phase.

OUT OF COHERENCY

If, for any reason other than making an Attack Run or an Intercept Move, a SRS Token is issues of its parent Carrier's Command Distance, it immediately Returns to Base.

Again, coherency is only checked after the end of the Secondary Movement Segment.

That's R.A.W. Enjoy.

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I understand the concern of validating things to a playgroup but if they are fighting you tooth and nail on how this clearly works than it is a problem of rules lawyers, not the game itself. I played 40k for a long time and this was a common game night occurrence I do not miss. No rule set is perfect. Nothing can cover every potential thought the player base could have on each rule. From playing this game, as well as reading the rulings that come out from Spartan Alex, it always seems to be the most straight forward interpretation is correct.  SRS are meant to move but must end in coherency, so it is exactly that. 

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No rule set is perfect. Nothing can cover every potential thought the player base could have on each rule.

 

Of course. Still, I believe the wording could be better and Spartan Games don't always use all the tools they have made so that they can have clear rules. For example, the use of keywords - using the same for a Carrier as a designation as as a ship that carries SRS in the rules could be better.

 

But there, I understand this could be seen as nitpicking and unnecessary by some players. I really like this game and just think there is some room for improvement in how the rules are written and presented.

 

About my stance, I think I already made it clear enough so far. So I won't be repeating the same arguments again, even if the last answers on this topic clearly do.

 

It seems like Spartan Alex doesn't intend to come here, so I believe it's best to leave it as it is.

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