Jump to content

We're moving to Discord!

Come join in the discussion here!

You can also still find out all the latest news on TWITTER and FACEBOOK

Thank you for your continued support, and we look forward to welcoming you shortly.

The Warcradle Team

Vikz93

Thoughts on Rense System Assault Helix

Recommended Posts

Hi everybody,

 

First time poster here  :). So was checking out the rules for the Archangel, Seraph and Temple and they all seem to be absolutely amazing! Do we know if these rules are final or are they still in play testing phase?

 

Archangel - Some people have said that they don't think the Archangel will be that great. To me having a leviathan which has both cloaked and hover vehicle with a pretty good DR rating to boot, is bonkers! The movement and weapon options of this beast seem pretty solid too. Any thoughts on this? Anybody able to point out something I am missing? Personally I am looking to bring 2 of these bad boys to my games as long as my opponents don't think I am being cheesy :P

 

Seraph - Cloaked and Hard to Target [-1], essentially the same defensive abilities as the Archangel. Pinpoint 2 on the weapon is a nice little boost. A bit squishy in terms of DR rating yes, but that can be expected from light tanks. Are they a bit expensive? Maybe I will have to see when I play with them. The only part that irks me is that you have to take a squad of 6 if you take the temple. Would have been nice to have the option to take fewer/more of them. 

 

Temple of Dramos - I freaked out when I saw this! Not only is the model sculpt for it absolutely freaking amazing, but the rules seem excellent on paper. The range of the gun on this bad boy is excellent and quite honestly it boasts a decent number of shots in both LR and ER. It has the cloaked special ability so no bursting 6's seems tasty especially considering the DR rating of the model. The attack dice in combat is what does it for me. It has the potential of doing some good damage! The "Improved Target Nexus" is what made me go from liking the model to loving it. Giving Seraphs (that you must take with the temple) the ability to hit on 3's instead of 4's, whilst not having to stay stationery, is just good!  The other sub rules that the model has are not absolutely essential but are a nice boost. 

 

These are my thoughts on the assault helix being released for the Rense system. Let me know your thoughts and discuss any concerns or hopes that you have, its always good to get different perspectives. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Overall, I am also very excited to get this helix (maybe two!). The value of the Archangel still seems dubious to me though. It's missiles are good, but it seems like its 'main weapon' is the Shard of Dramos. For how short games are, I don't know how much value that adds to an army list. The opportunity to get in there and slice a tank or something in half seems like a tough feat to pull off more than once or twice in a game. The addition of Cloaked does help this unit; both times I proxied it in the past, it basically just got pasted.

I'm thinking the Seraphs might be the breakout allstars for this helix. Hitting on 3's with good AD and Pinpoint plus the movement to be able to get behind the target sounds like a very capable initial attack.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Will have to play with it, before I can make a final judgement on it. As for theory behind it though, it just seems that sky dropping this bad boy in behind enemy lines will force the opponent to turn around and deal with it. My games with Dindrenzi usually last about 3-4 turns. So sky dropping him in turn one near enemy lines gives him the ability to shoot and then get into CQB about 2/3 times. I am not saying the Archangel can do it by himself but with the support of the Seraph's for example that will also be drop podded in, the risks are too big for the opponent to simply ignore. They will have to deal with them leaving, essentially the front of your army to cause more carnage to their exposed lines. 

 

As for now I think the Archangel makes for a fairly strong piece. It has speed, its weapons are above average to say the least, and it's defensive capabilities are through the roof. If someone said to me when I first got into the game your going to get a leviathan with a DR rating of 9.8.8 with the cloaked and hover vehicle special rule, I would have called them nuts. 

 

In a game like Planetfall where victory points are scored through killing units (and objectives), having units that don't bleed points are what makes particular armies so hard to beat. This is the true reason I like the Archangel. Even if the weapons turn out to be mediocre when actually playing with the model (and I am not saying that this is the case) having a model that is so hard to kill on the board will either make the opponent spend an astronomical amount of time and resources into killing it or they will just simply ignore it. Both these options seem good for me as the Dindrenzi player. 

 

I agree that the Seraph's seem to be the shining star of the helix. Once again drop podding them in behind enemy lines in the rear could cause massive casualties for your opponent. The unit seems to be the unit to use whenever you need something to either die or be crippled, something I am going to enjoy bringing out on my opponents :P 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My 2c

 

Looks wise, A++. I keep saying it, but it's true. The Seraphs look way better than I expected, as well. I kind of thought they'd look like those derpy Nod beam cannons from C&C 3, so I was pleasantly surprised by their appearance. I'll get two boxes as I'm not getting recon boxes - now I just need to decide on a paint scheme. I'd like to see what poseability the Archangel has, is it multiple pieces (body, limbs, wings)? 

 

My only issue with the RSN stuff is the factional special ability is a bit average, especially compared to Hawker. I think something like 'Unyielding Retribution: At the start of a turn, declare Unyielding Retribution. All RSN Armoured Models can move flat out and still engage in CQB. This ability can be used once per game'. would have been cool.

 

The Temple is going to make a great overwatch siege breaker, even with it's added cost. I reckon a Tyr probably only has a 30-40%~ chance of popping it in one shot (I've seen a Tyr one shot a spider heavy walker before), which is the best chance we can get I think (Hyperion doesn't count, as there's a good chance of it losing 2HP). Average firepower, but its fairly tough. I'll need to see whether the bells and whistles that got added are worth it. Extra tac cards would be good...I guess...if I had TAC cards... The target lock ability is nice, but I've never made a target lock roll to date. I like it. 

 

The Archangel. Before it got cloak, I was really worried about it being zapped out of existence the turn it deploys, now it's less likely to be outright killed before it does anything meaningful, which is nice. Hopefully between it's high movement, missiles and stabber it'll be able to kill one heavy unit per turn. (I feel it's more likely to average out 2 points of damage per turn against large models, and 3 vs mediums). The additional nexus designators in the helix is a godsend as well, as it puts less of a reliance on Circe's to do their thing...I have terrible luck with them. I managed to zero markers with one circe maybe 1/4 of the time.

 

The Seraphs are great. Freya's are superior for less points , but that doesn't detract from the Seraph's. 

 

Overall, it's a great helix, I think the best we've gotten outside of the Core. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Judging it by its performance on the table is the only true assessment. With the new profile, I will field it without previous bias. From my experience, my games as Dindrenzi last about two turns, occaisionally three. So a Turn 1 drop is nearly mandatory to get my points-worth out of it because it has to stand there for a turn using a mixture of harsh language and missiles before it can go get a piece of the action, provided there are still worthy targets in the area who are also unblocked.

I know if I had one drop in on me, I would probably just move my valuable targets away from it, block the Archangel's movement with lights, and expect the game to conclude before it could deliver it's main CQB attack.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Note that while you can deploy the Archangel by sky drop, it does NOT have the "Sky Drop Asset" rule that would require you to drop it.  So it is now possible for you to start with the Archangel on the table, rather than "standing there for a turn".

 

Dunno if that changes your tactical calculus or not, but...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Note that while you can deploy the Archangel by sky drop, it does NOT have the "Sky Drop Asset" rule that would require you to drop it. So it is now possible for you to start with the Archangel on the table, rather than "standing there for a turn".

Dunno if that changes your tactical calculus or not, but...

It is nice that it isn't mandatory to Sky Drop, and I was aware. Trouble is that moving it across the table rather than Sky Dropping it is basically equivalent. It still isn't Shard of Dramos-ing anything until at least turn 2, and if it goes Flat Out, it isn't shooting on Turn 1 either.

Though at least with Sky Drop, you can drop it in at the end of Turn 1 and activate it first during Turn 2.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

An advantage to deploying it on the field I guess is that it potentially frees up points that would normally be spent on Circe's, as it's a resilient, fast model that can move perform a dual role of designating and fighting.

You could indeed subsidize the Archangels with Circes, but I, personally, would have to weigh that against the rest of the list. I find Circes very valuable to my army. They have great utility, and I use Target Lock often. Most games, I typically find that there is one or two main landing zone for my Sky Drops, so wasting Designator shots zeroing down everything seems like a waste compared to making the attached tanks better at shooting.

The addition of the Nexus Designator on the Archangel is great, but from my perspective, isn't a direct equivalency to a Circe in the big picture. However, I can only speak for my playstyle.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You could indeed subsidize the Archangels with Circes, but I, personally, would have to weigh that against the rest of the list. I find Circes very valuable to my army. They have great utility, and I use Target Lock often. Most games, I typically find that there is one or two main landing zone for my Sky Drops, so wasting Designator shots zeroing down everything seems like a waste compared to making the attached tanks better at shooting.

The addition of the Nexus Designator on the Archangel is great, but from my perspective, isn't a direct equivalency to a Circe in the big picture. However, I can only speak for my playstyle.

 

For me the Archangel will be replacing my heavy helix. Whilst the heavy tank in the helix is good the medium tanks in the helix are not (at least to me). They don't provide anything that I don't already have and I would rather use those points to get a 2nd set of Eris of use those points to fund my assault helix.

 

The Circes I find to be quite useful for defensive options. Stick them in front of the unit they are attached to slightly and the opponent will have to shoot them before getting to shoot the things they actually want to kill. Most of the time my opponent cannot kill the whole unit + circes before the game ends meaning I have denied them a whole lot of TV. Target lock is not something I picked up on till yesterday so haven't really used it as of yet, but seeing as I already liked the Circes I imagine more options would just make me like it more. 

 

As for deploying the Archangel on the field instead of sky dropping, I would have to play test this. On paper sky dropping him in near or behind enemy lines seem to be the better option. However there are arguments to be made for deploying it on the field with the rest of your army. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Concerning the Circe and Archangel subject.

 

I keep my Circes behind my Eris/Kratos/attached unit, once the markers in that Circe's zone are down to 1-2 I switch to target locking exclusively. The reason I keep them behind is that the non-LOS designating doesn't really care where the tank is except within 30"; so generally not an issue. Yes the Circe can act as a semi-ablative armour, however if the Circe is the last model alive in the unit it no longer serves a purpose... except hauling off the field to deny TV.  Denying 5TV by running a no longer useful model off the table or 11TV by just hiding can be a game saver.

 

The Archangel can't Target Lock, it's a free designation every turn and little else. This frees the Circes to do their devastating job #2 of Target Locking. Need a element near the end of turn 2 or later? Lower the mark turn 1 for the Archangel, let the angel lower the other element's marker in turn 2 to free the Circes to Target Lock.

 

Remember also, the RSN models are being made to fit with the rest of the RSN Helicies. For them it's likely that Designator serves a much more traditional or still unknown role. We're just figuring out how to squeeze them into our Dindrenzi, (also the Relth and Directorate couldn't use the RSN without it.)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

For me the Archangel will be replacing my heavy helix. Whilst the heavy tank in the helix is good the medium tanks in the helix are not (at least to me). They don't provide anything that I don't already have and I would rather use those points to get a 2nd set of Eris of use those points to fund my assault helix.

That is amusing, you feel the opposite about the Heavy Helix than I do. I don't care for the Ares, but I like the Gorgos. I just don't feel like the Ares has much of a role. Also, the heavy helix is a great spot to get two more Circes. But, to each their own.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That is amusing, you feel the opposite about the Heavy Helix than I do. I don't care for the Ares, but I like the Gorgos. I just don't feel like the Ares has much of a role. Also, the heavy helix is a great spot to get two more Circes. But, to each their own.

 

Believe me I tried to like them, I purchased two box sets of them without play-testing them first. At the moment they just sit in my case staring back at me  :(.

 

After a few games with the Gorgos the following thoughts entered my mind:

  • Cost - They are slightly more expensive than the Eris. Taking a squad of 3 Gorgos compared to a squad of 3 Eris would leave a 30 point gap overall which could be spent on other things (for example a command point ~ not extravagant I know but it's something).

 

  • Weaponry - They have better weaponry than the alternatives. At long range they far outclass the Eris with a net total difference of 6 dice if taken in squads of 3. This is what initially made me take a unit of these instead of the 2nd unit of Eris.

 

  • Movement - This is where the Eris trumps the Gorgos in my opinion. The manoeuvrability of the Eris's is something that I can't pass up. To me their speed can be compared to light tanks, which is incredible in my opinion especially with the Hit & Run special rule. I will admit that my play style definitely prefers manoeuvring overall which is why I think I prefer these over the Gorgos. However at this point I still would take 1 unit of both instead of 2 units of Eris as they each of their uses. 

 

  • DR - This is the point at which I decide to switch to 2 units of Eris instead of 1 unit of each. Outright the DR rating of an Eris trumps that of a Gorgos in terms of raw stats. As I have said before I like to deny my opponent TV and there is nothing more gratifying than seeing my opponents struggle to penetrate the armour of my tanks. I wont lie and say that the DR rating of the Eris completely destroys that of the Gorgos, however I believe that it's enough of a boost to take it over the Gorgos. Especially considering the next part.

 

  • TV - Assuming that both the tank squadrons are in a unit of 3 than the Gorgos is roughly 20% more valuable to your opponent in terms of TV than the Eris. 

 

  • CQB - So the enemy has breached the front lines and are now in CQB with your tanks. The 9 dice that I get from the Eris compared to the 3 dice the Gorgos get makes me feel a bit better about my chances. 

All in all I couldn't justify paying more for a squishier unit that moves slower, is worth more TV to my opponent and that is not good in CQB to say the least. It's guns are the sole argument that the Gorgos hold over the Eris in my opinion, because as far as I am aware you can take Circe with Eris too. Unless I am playing that wrong?

 

Out of curiosity how are you using the Gorgos and to you what role do they fufill? I have tried to use them but like I've said I had problems.

 

Cheers 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, since the Gorgos got adjusted in the opposite direction of better, I will re-evaluate them for this stats iteration.

It's nothing special, mostly it is the 18 AD at 36" which is the longest range, good AD pool availaible to the Dindrenzi. They hit harder than the Leviathan at that range. That, paired with Target Lock makes a very formidable long range threat. I use them to hunt whatever threatens my Eris squadrons the most. They also make decent AA.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My Gorgos squadron has yet to let me down. I've also yet to actually move them so their speed issue... isn't an issue at all. The low DR hasn't been a problem either as the circle soaks up incoming damage quite nicely. The Ares on the other hand... pretty useless. All I can do is hope for a target of opportunity being delivered to it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, since the Gorgos got adjusted in the opposite direction of better, I will re-evaluate them for this stats iteration.

It's nothing special, mostly it is the 18 AD at 36" which is the longest range, good AD pool availaible to the Dindrenzi. They hit harder than the Leviathan at that range. That, paired with Target Lock makes a very formidable long range threat. I use them to hunt whatever threatens my Eris squadrons the most. They also make decent AA.

 

My Gorgos squadron has yet to let me down. I've also yet to actually move them so their speed issue... isn't an issue at all. The low DR hasn't been a problem either as the circle soaks up incoming damage quite nicely. The Ares on the other hand... pretty useless. All I can do is hope for a target of opportunity being delivered to it.

 

Hmm maybe. It's probably just differences in play style. I really don't like leaving tanks to stand still and shoot from where they were originally deployed all game. Doesn't do it for me unfortunately. Surprised you have had problems with Eris on the verge of calling them "useless". I haven't encountered anything that has made them useless but again that could be down to play style, your opponents and their forces. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Ares just really suffers in my opinion because of the big discrepancy in range between its two railguns. 

 

Maybe bump it's points back up and switch it's Skorpio with an Onager? Increases the 12 AD bubble out to 32", as opposed to 24" and lets it slog 19 AD out to 16" (Compared to relthoza 20@15, Terran 16@18, Directorate 15@24, Aquan 16@30, Sorylian 10@24).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Ares just really suffers in my opinion because of the big discrepancy in range between its two railguns. 

 

Maybe bump it's points back up and switch it's Skorpio with an Onager? Increases the 12 AD bubble out to 32", as opposed to 24" and lets it slog 19 AD out to 16" (Compared to relthoza 20@15, Terran 16@18, Directorate 15@24, Aquan 16@30, Sorylian 10@24).

 

If you and your opponent set up @ the 8 inch line that would leave a total of 32" between the both of you. So assuming you win the roll off and decide to go first, you can move forward 7" leaving a total of 25" between the Ares and whatever is directly ahead of it. So assuming you get first turn and then for whatever reason opt to use your Ares first then I agree the discrepancy is annoying and can cause you to lose half your shots.

 

However to avoid this I just simply activate him a bit later once my opponent has also moved some of his/her units. This overall deals with the problem in most cases.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hmm maybe. It's probably just differences in play style. I really don't like leaving tanks to stand still and shoot from where they were originally deployed all game. Doesn't do it for me unfortunately. Surprised you have had problems with Eris on the verge of calling them "useless". I haven't encountered anything that has made them useless but again that could be down to play style, your opponents and their forces.

Ares, not Eris. The Eris have done ok. Can't claim spectacular results with them, but certainly not useless. Honestly not convinced they needed the ER AD increased to 7.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've been proxying the Archangel until the model comes out, and not much has changed since I first gave it a whirl before it gained Cloaked; it still gets pasted before it gets to move. Gurgle.

If it could drop accurately so it was 'out of sight' behind some buildings or something like that, it might last longer, but with the hideous inaccuracy of the Sky Drops as they stand, all you can really do is pray and roll... :P

It might also be fun to give it a special rule that allows it to either land and shoot, or land-cruising move-stab (but no Main Ordnance), owners choice. So it either lands and opens fire, or 'changes' it's direction from it's initial landing point using it's jetpacks on final approach to land 'on' something. Maybe give it the 'Passing Over' rules with the line drawn between its original landing point and final location, so defenders can try and 'defend' against this 'comet from the heavens'...?

I just really like the idea of a cloaked giant robot (probably wreathed in flames from re-entry) slamming into the top of something with wristblade extended from low orbit, in an almighty explosion of fire, dirt and debris.  :lol:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's my IMHO, of course, but Archangel's main problem is that his most dangerous weapon works only in BTB. Whch mean that his danger zone is just 10" (same as Nyx). And, unlike those Nyx, he didn't have a re-roll of initial "1".

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If it could drop accurately so it was 'out of sight' behind some buildings or something like that, it might last longer, but with the hideous inaccuracy of the Sky Drops as they stand, all you can really do is pray and roll... :P

It might also be fun to give it a special rule that allows it to either land and shoot, or land-cruising move-stab (but no Main Ordnance), owners choice. So it either lands and opens fire, or 'changes' it's direction from it's initial landing point using it's jetpacks on final approach to land 'on' something. Maybe give it the 'Passing Over' rules with the line drawn between its original landing point and final location, so defenders can try and 'defend' against this 'comet from the heavens'...?

I just really like the idea of a cloaked giant robot (probably wreathed in flames from re-entry) slamming into the top of something with wristblade extended from low orbit, in an almighty explosion of fire, dirt and debris.  :lol:

The vision in my head of the Archangel screaming down from the sky and Shard of Dramos-ing a tank or leviathan has been what I've wanted to realize on the table since I first read its profile. The first game or so that I used it, we didn't know you couldn't move after Sky Drop and it did just that. It was great! I mean, it still got pasted right away, but it got to deliver it's CQB weapon.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's my IMHO, of course, but Archangel's main problem is that his most dangerous weapon works only in BTB. Whch mean that his danger zone is just 10" (same as Nyx). And, unlike those Nyx, he didn't have a re-roll of initial "1".

I don't think the big difference is the lack of Punishing CQB, but rather the inability to make base to base contact on the turn it arrives. The NyX at least get to move and initiate. The Archangel just has to stand there and fire off a volley of missiles and harsh language.

Link to comment
Share on other sites



×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.