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Fair enough, but it is still going to take at least two squads, and you're not coming out on top of the TV, points, or battlefield assets trade.

It depends, really. Assuming you got the jump on Bor'Ka, youll have earned 6TV while losing minimal of your own, and have a Nyx squad or two running around able to capture objectives, soak fire that will most definitely come their way, or lay the hurt on other high Value squadrons. Youll also have denied your opponent a valuable close-range DPS group. All this for an infantry squad or two.

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It depends, really. Assuming you got the jump on Bor'Ka, youll have earned 6TV while losing minimal of your own, and have a Nyx squad or two running around able to capture objectives, soak fire that will most definitely come their way, or lay the hurt on other high Value squadrons. Youll also have denied your opponent a valuable close-range DPS group. All this for an infantry squad or two.

Well, in my experience, Sorlyians kill whole Nyx squads by merely looking at them closely. You're also talking throwing away 500+ points and a large chunk of your available Nyx squads. And to kill what? A squadron of short ranged, slow walkers? I mean, specific tactical situations aside, I am pretty sure you could find much better targets for the Nyx.

Bor'Ka squadrons are best dealt with by pumping them full of Kinetic rail rounds. In my experience anyway. :)

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I would love for my Dindrenzi opponent to target my Heimdals with his Nyx, unfortunately he knows they aren't the ideal target and I end up losing a Tyr instead.

Same with the Bor'Ka, why waste hard hitting units for such minimal gain?

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Well, in my experience, Sorlyians kill whole Nyx squads by merely looking at them closely. You're also talking throwing away 500+ points and a large chunk of your available Nyx squads. And to kill what? A squadron of short ranged, slow walkers? I mean, specific tactical situations aside, I am pretty sure you could find much better targets for the Nyx.

Bor'Ka squadrons are best dealt with by pumping them full of Kinetic rail rounds. In my experience anyway. :)

Well, again, I'm no Dindrenzi player, heh. Was just thinking about how one could insist that that Sorylian list would absolutely punish a Dindrenzi army, considering they have CQB 16-22 bombs lying arond the map.

Back to Terran, though, I could see it working well. 'Course I could, its just the way the army is built. But like all list, it can still be countered. Just saying "Oh, terrans will lose because we absolutely have to drive up slowly into his face and take 3 salvoes to the face getting there" isnt going to convince me that my army sucks.

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I'm going to jump in here, as a staunch Terran player (and Dindrenzi) to add my 2p.

 

ALL forces are the bloody same. Just because Dindrenzi sky drop and Terrans don't, doesn't take away tactical choices. In the end a Dindrenzi player HAS to sky drop. Is that any more boring for them because they are forced to do that with their infantry? For some I'd imagine it is boring to go on suicide missions most of the time etc. PF has gone for an RTS feel in which forces don't always have access to each others abilities and tactics. Command & Conquer - Nod had unreal defence towers, Obelisks of Light, GDI didn't...did GDI want better laser towers just because it was boring to always use standard turrets etc?

 

I've played since the start and I play a lot (run a FLGS) and I'm yet to be bored by my Terrans. Do I want skydrop? No. I'll play my Dindrenzi army for that. Do I want a ton of shields and crazy ER AD for Dindrenzi? No, I'll play my Terrans for that.

 

Regarding the Heavy Helix - The Baldr and Tyr do feel "nerfed" but then again in my last game against Chris (Drakere) the Baldrs were absolutely on fire. 12AD hitting on 3+ with PP2 isn't bad at all. Basically took out a Medium Directorate tank squadron on their own, then a Trojan sqn, then an Anarchist squadron in one volley at 20" ER.

 

New scenarios wouldn't go a miss and I've created a few myself which have significantly changed the game around. Hopefully we'll see a big mission pack that adds in flanking and what not.

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They took out a squadron of Retaliators over the course of the 3 turn game, was about all they did except that one massively lucky shot at the Anarchists. :P I honestly didn't feel threatened by them.. I just thought they made for an easy kill for my Anarchists, which they did, almost killed 2 right off with my 25AD attack. xD Losing the whole squadron to an 12AD retaliation fire scoring 30+ Successes wasn't expected.. nor should it be based off as a norm of performance.

 

Edit: Actually no.. wasn't the Retaliators finished off by your Vidars, and Baldrs only accounted for 1 kill? I think during whole game they killed 1 Retaliator and 1 Trojam.. outside the crazy Anarchist shot. So they didn't even manage that truth be told. I feel honestly the Baldrs taken abit of an un-necessary hit really with the downgrade to 12AD at LR.. but since now you have Heimdahls shooting 6AD at LR too I don't feel too sorry for it. :P

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I'm going to jump in here, as a staunch Terran player (and Dindrenzi) to add my 2p.

 

ALL forces are the bloody same. Just because Dindrenzi sky drop and Terrans don't, doesn't take away tactical choices. In the end a Dindrenzi player HAS to sky drop. Is that any more boring for them because they are forced to do that with their infantry? For some I'd imagine it is boring to go on suicide missions most of the time etc. PF has gone for an RTS feel in which forces don't always have access to each others abilities and tactics. Command & Conquer - Nod had unreal defence towers, Obelisks of Light, GDI didn't...did GDI want better laser towers just because it was boring to always use standard turrets etc?

 

I've played since the start and I play a lot (run a FLGS) and I'm yet to be bored by my Terrans. Do I want skydrop? No. I'll play my Dindrenzi army for that. Do I want a ton of shields and crazy ER AD for Dindrenzi? No, I'll play my Terrans for that.

 

Regarding the Heavy Helix - The Baldr and Tyr do feel "nerfed" but then again in my last game against Chris (Drakere) the Baldrs were absolutely on fire. 12AD hitting on 3+ with PP2 isn't bad at all. Basically took out a Medium Directorate tank squadron on their own, then a Trojan sqn, then an Anarchist squadron in one volley at 20" ER.

 

New scenarios wouldn't go a miss and I've created a few myself which have significantly changed the game around. Hopefully we'll see a big mission pack that adds in flanking and what not.

 

Sigh, again. this isn't about skydrop its about a lack of alternate tactics.

 

Scenarios might help depending on what they bring.

 

Dindrenzi can make different lists that focus on different tactics because they have an alternate deployment method. Predominantly ground based, or predominantly skydrop. Or a bit of both. The units that skydrop can be used for so many effects and tactics i've already listed previously in this thread. Terrans and none skydrop/alternate deployment races don't have any of that. 

 

You also can't use a single instance of a units use to say that a unit is ok overall. Thats the same a knee jerk reaction saying they're pants after one game.

 

Overall, for me aside from the odd above average run of luck Baldrs are in no way worth the points or TV they cost. You could buy a unit of Baldrs or another Tyr with points left over. Its a no brainer.

 

I (like the vast majority of players) don't have the luxury to play as many games as someone who owns a gaming shop. I get a finite amount of game time per week. Now, with that in mind, I can spend it doing the same thing again in Planetfall and hope that abnormal luck makes it somewhat interesting, or I can go and try a new game or play an old game I havn't played for a while which is different and therefore more interesting. (Luckily for spartan that'll likely be DW or FS:A) but how many will simply go back to another companys games? Its easily avoidable attrition.

 

The purpose of this discussion is to make the game better for everyone going forward not just Terrans, but all factions. Its not about making them better, or worse, Its simply giving all players more (and equal) options. (I'm still shocked that people think that repetitive gameplay is a good idea.) This discussion is to level the playing field for all factions. it can't and won't change overnight but if discussions like these lead to future releases being more than different models for the same purpose then perhaps we can avoid the attrition mentioned above and the game stands less chance of stagnating.

 

(PS your RTS analogy makes zero sense in the context of this thread. GDI had multiple ways of taking out the obelisks. Airstrikes, Orcas, Commandos, ion cannon, tank rush, infantry rush airdropping units in chinooks, sneaky apcs, commandos with C4. For the analogy to make any sense in relation to this thread GDI would only have been able to run tanks at the obelisks, again. and again. and again. and again. every mission for the entire campaign. (whilst nod still had access to all their options. yes, it would work. But it would be incredibly incredibly boring to do that twice a week for 6 months.)

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RTS Analogy: I didn't mean about how to take them out FFS. I was trying to point out that certain races have certain units to do something and sometimes they don't get that variation.

 

There are 3 more Helixes coming out and after that, we know, are even more Helixes that will change things up again. Plus the Allied Helixes (which I believe will be the best place to implement what you want)

 

You are impatient and expecting every race to be able to do a bit of everything when clearly that's NOT how the game was designed.

 

The same is to be said about Firestorm, a game I have played for a long time and love passionately.

 

There are only finite ways to play but you don't hear Dindrenzi players complaining they can't get Beam weapons or Shields like the Terrans do. Likewise I don't go ahead and play my Terrans expecting that I can use mass long range railgun fire. Doesn't work. Oh...I can shunt certain units in or outflank. I could go mass SRS spam or cruiser spam. Or Tier 3 overload. There are plenty of these options in PF (that will become more available with more Helixes). Never try Double Sheriff? Double Leviathan? Double Recon? These change the way Terrans play massively.

 

They took out a squadron of Retaliators over the course of the 3 turn game, was about all they did except that one massively lucky shot at the Anarchists. :P I honestly didn't feel threatened by them.. I just thought they made for an easy kill for my Anarchists, which they did, almost killed 2 right off with my 25AD attack. xD Losing the whole squadron to an 12AD retaliation fire scoring 30+ Successes wasn't expected.. nor should it be based off as a norm of performance.

 

Edit: Actually no.. wasn't the Retaliators finished off by your Vidars, and Baldrs only accounted for 1 kill? I think during whole game they killed 1 Retaliator and 1 Trojam.. outside the crazy Anarchist shot. So they didn't even manage that truth be told. I feel honestly the Baldrs taken abit of an un-necessary hit really with the downgrade to 12AD at LR.. but since now you have Heimdahls shooting 6AD at LR too I don't feel too sorry for it. :P

 

That's a good K/D ratio in a game of PF. Not many units actually go on huge killing sprees (apart from my Odin muhaha). The Baldrs took out a medium in the first turn, hammering your firepower of the Mediums straight away. Then had to take pot shots at whatever you charged straight at them through open ground lol. Still managed a decent K/D ratio.

 

That 20" LR is threatening :rolleyes:

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The problem is that Terran Aliance nees a HEavy Armot to compensate for their short range, which mean their TD are suppoced to be a HUGE help, but they are... less than medicore (PP mechanic are just too unreliable). 

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RTS Analogy: I didn't mean about how to take them out FFS. I was trying to point out that certain races have certain units to do something and sometimes they don't get that variation.

 

There are 3 more Helixes coming out and after that, we know, are even more Helixes that will change things up again. Plus the Allied Helixes (which I believe will be the best place to implement what you want)

 

You are impatient and expecting every race to be able to do a bit of everything when clearly that's NOT how the game was designed.

 

The same is to be said about Firestorm, a game I have played for a long time and love passionately.

 

There are only finite ways to play but you don't hear Dindrenzi players complaining they can't get Beam weapons or Shields like the Terrans do. Likewise I don't go ahead and play my Terrans expecting that I can use mass long range railgun fire. Doesn't work. Oh...I can shunt certain units in or outflank. I could go mass SRS spam or cruiser spam. Or Tier 3 overload. There are plenty of these options in PF (that will become more available with more Helixes). Never try Double Sheriff? Double Leviathan? Double Recon? These change the way Terrans play massively.

 

 

1: How is discussing a possible future of the game "impatient" despite me literally saying in my last post i'm not expecting things to change overnight or at all?  If you don't like what i'm saying that's fine but if you're going to try to label me (which you shouldn't be) as something then at least pick something that makes sense. 

 

2: You're again totally missing the point of my posts. I don't want new units. I want new tactics. They're not the same thing. I'm assuming you havn't been bothered to read all my previous posts on this topic. But to summarise for you its this: I don't want other races tech, or other races MARs. I don't care if im outranged, or someones faster than me or can ignore terrain, or someone has stealth or whatever, none of that matters, as that what makes each faction unique. I've simply been saying that Skydrop is an alternate deployment method that listed as a basic rule in the rulebook. Its not faction specfic because at least half the factions have it to some extent so I'd like to see the other races get access to it or another way of deploying models to make things more interesting. 

 

3: I'm not complaining either. At no point have I said Terrans suck or any such assertion in fact i've always said they're good at the single tactic they can do. I'm simply trying to discuss with fellow players whether they share the concern that 1 tactic is boring or not and what could be done about it. 

 

4: You say that the game isn't designed to have all factions have access to everything and then you say that there's more helixes to come. So how can you say that the game has "clearly not" been designed that way when we only have half the available helixes. You're contradicting yourself whilst also completely ignoring the fact that i've repeatedly said that its not about getting access to different weapons and tech and MARs its about having the same basic tactical options as everyone else.

 

5: I do hear Dindrenzi player complaining about no shields etc. but that's not the point because (again) I'm not talking about Tech or MARs. Denying a faction in Planetfall from access to skydrop is the same as denying a faction access to shunt and/or flank deployment in Armada. 

 

6: Do you think i'd still be here trying to explain to someone who obviously isn't reading what i'm writing what the discussion is about if i was "impatient" or if I hadn't tried all available helix options? 

 

(Bad) RTS Analogy. No you didn't mean about how to take them out because you completely and totally missed the point of this entire discussion. I however am talking about different ways to take targets out both in the analogy and in this discussion. Thats GDI wanting the same tactical options as NOD (which in the game they do get) not the same units.

 

Tactics are not units. Units execute tactics. As it stands Terran units can execute 1 tactic. Run forward and shoot. Adding long range firepower is simply helping to ensure that tactic works, its not a new tactic.

 

Why are all the Vanguards so completely opposed to the ideas in this thread. They're not even being helpful when they disagree. I've now had three basically say I and other players are wrong to think a lack of tactical options is boring but offer absolutely nothing In the way of explanation as to why other than "That just the way it is (despite me pointing out that thats just the way it is at the moment) or even less helpfully suggesting we buy a new army and then badly trying to label me as "impatient" when I've shown i'm quite obviously not.

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OK some good points Zaah. Maybe I was over reacting and being a bit aggressive. My bad. Accept my humblest apology.

I think with the amount of races in the game, it has lent itself to being designed this way (so far, lots to come, I may be wrong and everyone will get a splash of varying deployment options) to start with. Maybe Terrans will get portals, sky dropping infantry, teleporting tanks and all that.

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OK some good points Zaah. Maybe I was over reacting and being a bit aggressive. My bad. Accept my humblest apology.

I think with the amount of races in the game, it has lent itself to being designed this way (so far, lots to come, I may be wrong and everyone will get a splash of varying deployment options) to start with. Maybe Terrans will get portals, sky dropping infantry, teleporting tanks and all that.

 

I want... MIRAGE TANKS

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Hmm, how about something like this?

A model that does not move, participate in a CQB action, or make a main ordnance attack during its activation gains a Mirage token. Models with a Mirage token must have their first DR hit twice before taking a point of damage.

The model may still go on overwatch or initiate a CQB action, but if it participates in any attacks, it loses the Mirage token.

And then I look at Planetfall rules and realize this is too bloated, heh. Seems more fitting for DW or something.

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I think things will balance as new helices come out and as the orbats change. I'm sure 3.1 won't be the last orbat update. 

I'm not throwing myself fully into planetfall yet, specifically because I'm waiting for more helices to be released. In all honesty though, I play relthoza......so maybe my opinion isn't valid. We did get some love in the 3.1 update. 

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The air helix better be impressively capable in terms of opening tactical options or I may just be done with this.

The ongoing Zenian love fetish is getting old in fsa and fspf.

And just saying we getting the chance to drop infantry near enemy units like nyx or spiders is less than usefull as they do not have shields and do have impressive DR values so will be less ussfull to us.

To be honest I'm finding it hard to say what Terrans do good besides depending on random shield rolls. Our short range is not that impressive. Dindrezi 16" 21AD, Directorate 12" 21AD, Realthozan 12" 22AD, and Sorylians matching us 10" 24AD but getting rerolls.

So what is Terrans good at? Being a punching bag isn't particularly amusing to tell people that ask. So sell me on what makes this force funner than the nezt one when we have the slowes units shortest range and some of the lowest AD support elements.

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Hmmm, well my Terrans are an unstoppable force, racking up a ridiculous win-loss result locally... The Terran Turtle is nigh-unstoppable! :P

So, whats good about them?

- Hard as sin. You complain about shields, but 4 Shields on a 6+6 Tank is amazing, especially (this is the funny part) when a squadron starts losing levels of DR, meaning more tanks are included. It's not unusual for me to be rolling 8 Shield Dice, re-rolling 1's against 12 hits... :P

- Not much range (if you ignore things like the Tyr, Baldr and Odin) sure, but we do hit like a sledgehammer. 24 AD at 10" and 18AD at 20" is nothing to be sneered at. Then you got the Vidars at 32+16AD at 10", 16+16AD at 20", and still 12AD out to 36". 

- Actually a fair bit of Pinpoint on not half bad AD. The Tyr having 12AD out to 36", usually hitting on a 3+ from Placed shots should be removing a Medium every turn, if not doing a heap of damage to a Heavy. The Baldrs get the same AD, with only Pinpoint 2, which while not as good as Pinpoint 4, is still pretty nice.

- So. Many. Infantry. Like, wow... Digging out a 6-base Hirdman squadron is a freaking nightmare, even with Nyx. And the Hirdmen are still cheaper than 4 Nyx! :P

There are certainly advantages to the Terrans as they stand (and the ones above are just a few quick ones that occured to me, I'm sure people will point out more yet :P ), and I personally enjoy playing them as much as I enjoy playing my Dindrenzi. :D

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That is one thing i'll say Corehunter.. don't get me started on Heimdahls. I don't think they needed a boost to 6AD each at LR when something like the Directorate Retaliator is throwing 4AD at LR... :P Might be cheaper granted and a little bit faster but those Heimdahls now hit like Baldrs in EF, just without Pinpoint 2... XD Don't see why they needed 6AD, 5AD was fine enough. The Terran Turtle I will say is strong, i've played it myself and it is a good formation, just games didn't often last long enough for it to get into the meat of the fight in my experience.

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That is one thing i'll say Corehunter.. don't get me started on Heimdahls. I don't think they needed a boost to 6AD each at LR when something like the Directorate Retaliator is throwing 4AD at LR... :P Might be cheaper granted and a little bit faster but those Heimdahls now hit like Baldrs in EF, just without Pinpoint 2... XD Don't see why they needed 6AD, 5AD was fine enough. The Terran Turtle I will say is strong, i've played it myself and it is a good formation, just games didn't often last long enough for it to get into the meat of the fight in my experience.

Hmmm, how abou to make an agreement with your opponent that objectives give less TV? It would make game longer on larger formats...

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Hmmm, how abou to make an agreement with your opponent that objectives give less TV? It would make game longer on larger formats...

I dont think that would do a whole lot, as then instead of bothering to capture objectives, people would simply focus more on killing squadrons. And Infantry (especially Sweeper ones) can quite easily tear through enemy squadrons (even Leviathans). I've used Nyx in this capacity often! :D

I'd like the opposite approach, of decreasing TV from killing things, and increasing the value of Objectives. If everyone isn't going hell-for-leather to beat the opponent into submission but rather trying to capture and control the Objectives, we might see things live longer and be held back for thrusts and counter-thrusts. :)

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I'm liking the recon helix, but still struggling a bit to fit it into my forces. Recon anti-armor smalls without recon specialist that have to be taken, APC with recon is a great objective taker if you can win the recon roll, or just place a nasty squad of heavy infatry somewhere. But as of yet they do not fit well with my rolling thunder themed force.

 

I play Relthoza as well and while I do love my bugs, when it comes to delivering a brutal smackdown, nothing compares to the Terrans.

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