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I'm with you, BrotherZaah. The Sky Dropping thing is just too good in Planetfall for it not to be more widespread. To compare it to Firestorm, what if there were no Reserves and Shunting was a MAR, and only two core races had it, and one of which was actually optimized for it? Giving the other races slightly faster ships would not alleviate their tactical disadvantage.

 

Ha, put more succinctly in one paragraph than I managed in three.

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You've either missed or ignored the point. I don't want to get up the board quicker. I (and at a guess a good few other Terran players too) am fed up of running across the board at gunfire regardless of how quick its done. The ability to skydrop units in the enemy rear is a tactic that goes far beyond simply getting troops onto an objective quicker. It allows you to put dangerous units in the rear of the enemys front line, suddenly rear armour values are threatened. Firebases disrupted, reserves depleted before they can be committed. Hover units can be bracketed. Hit and run can be nullified or diminished.

 

To be clear, we need to make a distinction between traits and tactics. I don't want hover. or railguns, hit and run, bonuses to skydropping or better infantry I also don't want almost every unit to be able to skydrop like the Dindrenzi can. They're Dindrenzi traits, and should remain Dindrenzi traits. Skydrop is not a trait. Its a tactic. The Dindrenzi  trait is to prefer and excel at the tactic, thus they get bonuses to it and almost all their units can do it. I completely believe other races should have at least some access to any such tactic. Like i believe Dindrenzi should get APCs and artillery but not be as good at them as say Sorylians or whatever.

 

I can see from your sig you're a Dindrenzi player. So you know how good skydrop is. I can fully understand you don't want to lose such an amazing tactical advantage over most other factions. But I can also see you're a Dystopian wars player where tactics are shared but MARs and Tech are kept to a few factions each so surely to can see, like Dystopian Wars, for the health of the game either through overall balance or to keep players interested in the game, each faction needs to be able to at least dabble in all the tactics (note: not traits) available. 

 

TL;DR Skydrop is a tactic not a trait. One that all factions should have at least a small amounts of access to for simple game balance reasons and one or two excel at as part of their racial traits. Tech, MARs and faction specific rules should be the dominant defining traits of a faction not denial of a basic game rule.

I had a big spiel half typed up, then shrugged and decided it'd simply be easier to say this. Because I'm lazy like that...  :P 

Personally, I want to see asymmetrical factions with big differences in tactical doctrine (including complete lack of access to some tactical options), rather than optimised forces that have access to everything but are defined by being slightly better/more focussed in some regards than others. I want their tactics to differentiate the factions, not their traits.  ^_^ 

This, of course, is my opinion on the matter. Yours is obviously different. And at this point, we don't know whether we will or won't see homogenisation of tactical options, or if we will continue to see the differentiation we see now. Only the future (and Derek) know this...  :lol:

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? What anti infantry. Barrage is one of the worst weapon mars. No cover for infantry but they still only hit on 6s so meh. Light tanks have anti infantry but put out 3AD each so yeah.

Every light tank is anti-infantry... Yes I was referring to barrage, my main objective grabbers (Nyx) spend 80% of their on table time in buildings who's protection is negated by Barrage. The vast majority of anti infantry has a sub 12" range and is on light vehicles that don't frighten me much and I get 2-8 cover saves against. Main battle tanks pelting me at range with no save? Not something I look forward to.

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Every light tank is anti-infantry... Yes I was referring to barrage, my main objective grabbers (Nyx) spend 80% of their on table time in buildings who's protection is negated by Barrage. The vast majority of anti infantry has a sub 12" range and is on light vehicles that don't frighten me much and I get 2-8 cover saves against. Main battle tanks pelting me at range with no save? Not something I look forward to.

Parking up with Heimdalls, use the Placed Shot bonus to hit on 5's and you will rapidly remove infantry from an objective... :P

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What puzzles me is why two of the most vocal Dindrenzi players on the forums are on this thread telling Terran players that they're wrong to be bored with being forced to use the same tactic repeatedly.

 

I'd imagine this thread would look a lot different if the Dindrenzi were forced to skydrop and only skydrop every unit they had regardless of whether they wanted to or not.

 

But bringing the thread back towards something more constructive than simply being told to like it or lump it by some Spartan Vanguards...

 

An alternative deployment tactic is needed by some races. Terrans being the readily apparent but Sorylians are another and Directorate more so than Sorylians. Skydrop makes the most sense as its already in the rulebook, hasn't yet (despite what some people think) been restricted to certain races.

 

But if the aim is to please people who need their own section of the basic rules to themselves, Then alternative deployments that aren't skydrop could be:

 

An outflanking maneuver. Similar to the Armada rules.

Burrowing units.  

Teleportation. like the Covenant of Antarctica orb. 

 

To assuage any doubt that these could be anything as dirty as generic rules available to anyone who might find them fun and to ignore the basic game balance issues they create, we'll couch any of these options in fluff to make them seem like racial specific innovations.

 

With these ideas, the tactically lacking races who are inherently inferior on a basic tactical level to anyone with more than one deployment option now level the playing field, and the players of said races have something else to do. Whilst also pleasing people who like new rules for the sake of it.

 

All we need is at best significant altering of faction specific rules at worst a whole new section in the rulebook. Embodying a marked move away from the more streamlined rules Spartan has been implementing with recent previous game editions across their lines.

 

Or we could give a few units in some specific helixes skydrop. 

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That would be the long and short of it. Basically their answer to us having no alternative tactics is for us to be content to not have any tactical initiative and dance to their tune.

 

I'd point out that sitting an entire unit of medium tanks (a front line mainstay unit of paramount importance to actually pushing the one tactic we can do to success) completely still (and thus not getting into a range they can engage the rest of their army) on the off chance that they might land troops nearby BEFORE they blow up said mediums from a safe distance is both wasteful and stupid. But I suspect they either don't get or more likely don't care about the problem.

 

Factional loyalty is cool and all, I love my Terrans, but I'm broad minded to the game enough to realize that balance is imperative to the life of a game. This thread is about discussing that and coming up with solutions.

 

I feel coming into a Terran discussion about orbat issues, and either flat out refusing acknowledge them (re: refusing to consider that sole use of skydrop is unbalanced) and then not offering up alternative solutions or suggesting absolutely terrible tactical ideas that benefit the enemy more than you as a "solution" is essentially of zero use to anyone.

 

I'm all for open discussion but a refusal to acknowledge the issues brought up in the discussion so far leaves you in a position that you're now essentially trolling a topic on an issue that you have already stated doesn't exist to you.

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Honestly it would help to get better deployment options like skydrop becouse even getting a flying apc will still have a model to down first turn.

I would not mind seeing a 1-2" drop on Dindrezi and Realthozan ER weapons as they come across as too optimized especially for Dindrenzi. Beaing able to hit then leave the feild is also ****. Letting a unit make TV then leave in the same activation is silly.

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Honestly it would help to get better deployment options like skydrop becouse even getting a flying apc will still have a model to down first turn.

I would not mind seeing a 1-2" drop on Dindrezi and Realthozan ER weapons as they come across as too optimized especially for Dindrenzi. Beaing able to hit then leave the feild is also ****. Letting a unit make TV then leave in the same activation is silly.

 

Agreed, a flying APC is still just charging through gunfire into the enemy. Just its quicker, and thus get bumped up the target priority list and will probably cost an absolute fortune points wise because APCs and flyers are high priced to start with, combining the two will likely result in something outrageous, similar in points and TV to a Sheriff if not higher. and it'll still  be super vulnerable like every other flyer.

 

Alternate deployment options would reduce the frustration of facing hit and run, as they would find it much harder to hit and run completely out of danger like they can now versus Terrans.

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True but making a helix fairly mandatory for a force to even work reasonably is bad. You will force atleast one skydrop capable helix if not two per list just to get reasonable odds. The flying apc while sounding cool will need a lot of mars to make it perform any different role or purpose than the recon apc we just got.

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True but making a helix fairly mandatory for a force to even work reasonably is bad. You will force atleast one skydrop capable helix if not two per list just to get reasonable odds. The flying apc while sounding cool will need a lot of mars to make it perform any different role or purpose than the recon apc we just got.

 

Both very good points. But if the helix that had skydrop had units we'd need anyway i.e Hirdmen. Surely we'd just throw them in instead of the taking the troops in the core helix if we wanted to. Fortunately there's no limit on the amount of helixes you can have just on the number of the same helixes before you have to double core.

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Well,I do like the races being highly asymmetrical, since it makes them feel unique instead of cookie-cutter level differences.

However, if this is appreciated like I think it should be, I then ask you: What should the Terran tactic <i>be?</i>. Personally, I can handle that theyre slow, ponderous, heavy shields with heavy firepower at low range. And not everything is like that.

Sorry CoreHunter, I dont see your point. The Heavy Helix for example gives you immense firepower at long range (Lets not talk about the Baldr), and the Leviathan Helix gives you a strong, do-everything unit. We also have respectable AA in general because of the ability to drag in AA tanks right from the start. Not something to laugh at.

I do agree, however, that having one or two dabbles in what is currently other race tactics would be nice. Skydrop for one. But besides that, we all know that the bulk of our forces will be forever driving up slowly into gunfire. Thats just how Terrans were designed from the start. Some race had to do it, but I'd still appreciate some more... assaulty, tactical stuff, like many of you, I think.

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Yeah i'm not asking for a total re-write of Terrans. I like the Terrans. I am just asking for some tactical options with the new helixes. As it stands some factions are so one dimensional its laughable.

 

The Terran way of "drive at the enemy and pray enough of our forces get there" is both easily countered and boring in its execution. The game becomes a simple trigonometry exercise underpinned with a target priority list the outcome only fluctuating with dice rolls.

 

Mix in a little skydrop or some other deployment method and suddenly the games way more tactical for both players. 

 

Even in Firestorm: Armada the Terrans have way more tactical options available to them.

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Mainly with the stand and shoot +1 to hit their is not much reason doe ranged units to move ever. With Realthozan ranged units having 3 arcs for all their firepower it is impossible to advance on them without giving them easy shots.

Dindrezi having a cruise speed better than our flatout and an ER of our cruise and ER gets hard to deal with when you consider they have hit and run.

With the fact that as we advance we hand them our rear arcs for drop anything they have.

Perhaps giving the armored units sectored mar would be helpfull as they are ment to be well armored.

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Heavy helix? One of the shorter ranged and lowest AD.

Directorat 24" 15 and 48" 12. 260pts with terror and corrosive and 5TV

Terran 16" 16 and 32" 12. 300pts pinpoint4 6TV.

Sorylians 24" 10 and 48" 16. 300pts terror 5TV.

Aquans 30" 16. 300pts Interceptor and corrosive 6TV.

Realthozan 15" 20 and 30" 16. 315pts railguns 6TV.

Horrible no but not that good either.

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Yeah, BrotherZaah, I understand that. I'm just trying to say that even now with only 3 helixes, it isnt just that.

The Heavy Helix has long range firepower, the Leviathan is tough and versatile, the recon is more strike-like with its lights and has good heavy infantry for holding positions.

I imagine itd only get more varied with more helixes. We dont only run at enemies and hope to live, heh.

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... We sky drop like 3 units. No where near most or even half. We actually just got our first Terran player at my shop, the only core race I haven't faced, kinda fear all that anti infantry and shields.

Including the RSN, there is currently six units that Skydrop for the Dindrenzi and Friends:

Damocles Drop Pod with Nyx (different flavors)

Hyperion

Leviathan Helix Letos

Damocles Drop Guns

Archangel

Temple of Dramos with Seraphs

So not counting the Nyx and Seraphs which can only ride along, the Erebus which don't have a real entry, or the Circe which is an upgrade tank, only five Dindrenzi squadrons can't Sky Drop.

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Ok, 4. I forgot the Letos. Even then we pay extra for anything not a Damocles to drop. So really 2 + 2more with a tax.

And those points are very well spent, most of the time. Even the +50 point "tax" for the Hyperion's Sky Drop option is a bargain considering the tactical flexibility and nearly guaranteed full dice pool you get from it.

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Too much of a waste on the Levi to me... might change with a CQB variant.

But now that I realize I'm further in enemy territory than I thought... Saw a "new orbats" thread comment and clicked, thought this was a general not Terrans.

Point is as an FSA player I saw that the Terrans had some effective use and the Din were not at all unstoppable despite the loud statements to the contrary. One of my FSA forces in now Terrans in fact. I see the same thing repeating with Planetfall; cries of "OP", "broken", and "gimped" just to have things smooth out a little later.

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*whistles*

Gone half a day, and look what happens! :P

First up, please don't accuse me of being here to troll. Despite primarily identifying as a Dindrenzi player, I actually have a Terran force of the same size as my Dindrenzi, and both forces get about equal table time. So I'm not here to troll, try and weaken one army over the other or anything like that. I'm here because I care where the Terrans go as a faction. :)

So, rather than type out a massive post responding to the veritable wall of earlier posts, I figured I'd try something constructive. :D So, people complaining about the one-dimensionality of Terrans: What sort of lists have you used? Just one of each helix? Maxed-out core? 

For instance, have any of you tried the joy that is the Double Recon Helix Rush? It's a LOT of infantry moving very fast that opponents struggle to stop or kill. Lots of fun, AND doesn't rely on the Terran Turtle (although I like to use that as my 'distraction' while I have 6 APC's of infantry tearing around the board terrorising things). Or the Double Tyr'n'Tanks list for all your long-range Pinpoint needs with a sledgehammer in the form of the Terran Turtle advancing under the cover of giant-laser-death. That's a long-range, hard-hitting Terran force, and a fast and swarmy Terran force, which can be used together if the points allow.

So what sort of lists are you guys using that you are finding 'bland and unexciting' to play?  ^_^

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2x hawker, 2x Levi, half core.

Hwaker, recon, levi, full core.

2x recon, 2x hawker, levi, 2x Tyrs, 2x half cores.

2x recon, levi, half core.

Levi, heavy, full core.

2x heavys, half core.

2x heavys, full core.

Drawn once against realthozans.

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