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Tincancaptain

Anyone seen the new orbats?

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Balancing Prometheus and Aristotle are still important to me regardless of drone modifications though. I do not think you can just buff them to be as good a value as current Diophantus-9 though. I suspect that would be a game breaking level of power for COA. Carrier 9 upgrade I believe must cost more, or be dropped, or other aspects of Dio must be reduced. Pericles needs something also. For only 35 more Diophantus also has carrier 9, can launch while wave lurking, and is superior is most any way you look at it save a bit of long range sniping I guess. But I do not really advocate keeping any drone launcher at range band four anyway.

I also agree that target painter is not easy to use. It cancels out PA, and you have to start close in at the beginning of your activation. Like can understand the concept of "too many large dice pool so in COA ORBAT is bad due To painter". But is target painting actually working in this way? Buffing the TP range might be bad for balance though too. If 12 and 16 inche range became 16 and 20 inche respectively for example, it might be too strong. Hopefully this was or could be tested.

I actually think if the Prometheus and Aristotle got a bit of a buff people would take them regardless, yes the point for point cost of the Dio is amazing right now. Everyone on these forums already say that they don't want to take drone spam anyways so if those options even if not as amazing as the Dio i think people would still pull them out simply because they don't want to do drone spam.  The problem is that the Dio is SOOO much better if it was yeah its better but i want more guns then i don't think we would be having this same conversation.

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About the drones: I think Presidentes idea (DR 1) has merit, if (and only if) it is combined with Combat Coordinator (Big Fuel Tanks, Acrobatic Pilots, Vertical Dive) on all carriers and some other vessels with a variable range (a Pericles ges 24", a Epicurius 16", a Kepler 8" or something like that). If someone wants to do a Game of Drones, they will have to put something in the line of fire. And if the opponent wants to stop the relentless waves of autonomous doom, they may do so by sinking the coordinator.

Sure, it wont help the non-carrier models. But it encourages CoA-carriers in the thick of battle and might make their non-carrier-options more interesting.

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The problem with that idea is that, to make a drone network even slightly viable as a minor tactic, the fleet will require numerous carriers.

A fleet with just one is going to be very very restricted, their drones virtually useless outside a highly restricted area. At Dr 1, an aa value of 7 will reliably wipe a full strength drone wing. An aa value of 5 will effectively make a target immune to a bombing run, which means most every unit in the game.

Imagine you place your epicurus on the field on the left, then face a refused flank. Your effective drone bubble will not reach the main battle before turn 3 or 4. Normally this doesn't matter because you can send drones out and they will still be effective against their target, but at Dr1 they would do nothing due to opportunistic aa or the aa they face when attacking.

You just cannot use the network like that, so you must then include lots of carriers to spread the effectiveness bubble around enough to be flexible... Leading us straight to game of drones again, but this time without the option of not doing carrier spam.

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Maybe we should look at drone spam problen under different angle?

What if drones can only activate during activation phase of the model with drone relay. Say, to activate one drone base you need to spend 2 carrier points (or other number of points or something else that limits number of activated drones) of the activated model. This will look very organic as drones are operated from vessels with drone relay and will remove drone spam problem (you need to choose how much drones you want to relaunch and move because all those actions consume carrier points) while still be very distinct from other nations SAS.

Any thougths on this?

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No, activating multiple units is a bad idea.  First it breaks from one of the major mechanics of the game which is alternating activations.  Second it allows events such as the carrier killing one member of the squad with guns/PA and then the Drones dropping on the squad with even less ack ack.  There is a reason this type of advantage is restricted to the Tally Ho card.

 

It will also not slow down a heavy drone list since the second carrier is just going to relaunch the SAS from the first activation + whatever your opponent kills in between.

 

 

I would really like to hear from the play testers on this.  Did they test 1000 point lists with three or more carriers?  Did they test out lists with Dio(9) a Euclid and two Keplers?

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That's what i've been saying drone spam has been a CoA thing long before this orbat we just didn't have it with the amazing Dio.

 

It also has been stated that drones are not op when we just do a carrier 9 so why should we nerf something that isn't broken in small numbers but dangerous in large numbers like any sas if spammed.

 

Maybe the Dio should not get carrier 9 but i like it cause its amazing :P but yes it is the best point for point large in our arsenal and i still stand by that our drones do not need a nerf and that it is something that people can play against and even win against.

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I am not that worried about drone nerfing. Some of that talk is simply due to the empowerment of Drone spam that is caused by Diophantus upgrade and the new Kepler medium. People were often already saying they were using Dio more than other large/mediums.....and that disparity has been widened.

 

It's all about the balance. In a world with a bigger value gap between Dio and other surface CoA vessels, PLUS being able to build out mediums with even more carriers...yeah. Scary.

 

I also am not sure, "just buff the Aristotle and Prometheus to be as good a value as Diophantus", is a realistic suggestion. I mean....I want CoA to be good, and to have multiple builds that are balanced, but not a ridiculous powerhouse. That's boring. Bring non-carrier models to Diophantus level points value would, I think, be out of balance.

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I guess I will put in my 2 cents

Reduce the Aristotle point value by 10 points so the Aristotle would now be 190pts and make the dio upgrade for carrier 9 a +25pts instead of +15pts.

Only a slight change in points and doesn't change major stats.

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Agreed. Spartan have started something that could set a horrid trend in the game.

Its more baffling when you have nations who dont have access to a fleet carrier yet you give a nation with one access to as many more as they can afford......

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I would just like a reason to field an Aristotle and not find myself and my opponent saying, "why are you deliberately undermining your fleet?"

The Aristotle's PA is worse, it's durability is worse, it superior offensive gunnery is fleeting and vanishes after the paint is scratched and your left musing "If this was a Diophantus the Drones would've handled this", it has worse utility with the constant need to pick between a difficult to use Target Painter and the PA so the utility options are in constant conflict and mired by further frustrating requirements (paint before moving) or outclassed (if you want the PA utility, the Diophantus wins voiding that). So the Diophantus provides superior utility with the capacity to relaunch desired drones and lay mine and PA, none of those conflict or lock out an option. The Aristotle has guns with temporary advantage and utility that shuts out other utility.

I want a reason to objectively look at the Aristotle and field it over a Diophantus and feel like that was an objectively solid choice to make, right now that isn't there.

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You know Presidente,

 

I could say Massive British Torpedos that negate my wave lurker, lots of fun for everyone.  Massive Heat lance dice, fun for everyone.  Massive tesla and boarding, fun for everyone.  Most nations have things that are not fun for your opponent.

 

I do not think the drones are overpowered, yes the assault carrier needs to be nerfed.  The Dread and Battleship both need a little love especially the Aristotle.   The fact is until you give the COA a while to deal with Larges and Massives the only  semi reliable answer is drones.  If you make the other large and Massives better and bring down the assault carrier, and you will fix most of your problems.

 

I keep reading everybody's post and you guys really must be playing games that last like 10 or 11 turns, for the drones to make that much of a difference.

 

Once the Diophantus is brought back in line, I do not think you are going to have that many sea based carriers on the front line.

 

It is also okay for the CoA to have the best SAS operations in the game, someone has to have that distinction, so why not us.  All I hear is we cant have a large dice pool and we should not have this, you know what all that is rubbish.

 

I have always thought the PA was the most overhyped thing in the COA, never been a fan, hell why do I want the largest dice pool on my large and massive to be a weapon that is designed to kill smalls.   My large and Massives should be designed to fight other large and Massives.

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Ever played vs. a drone heavy list? I used it two times, before the Diophantus upgrade. Both times my opponent was powerless. The second time my opponent knew what was comming and tried unsuccesful to make a list to counter the drone spam. Both games took 4 or 5 turns.

I'm not opposed against drones being special and even stronger then normal SAS, but at the moment it feels to cheap to play with them.

I agree that the Aristotle need to be upgraded a bit. It starts out with a very decent amount of AD, but it can't handle damage very well when dueling with other larges.

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Please please please don't change this to another thread on torpedoes!!!! It feels like they're the most talked about subject on the forums which says something in itself. I'm presidente's main coa opponent and don't really use many of the wave lurking models other than the beast known as the Diophantus so its not something we've come across. I can see it being an issue for already damaged mediums though. We should try if he ever decides to use Brits again! He generally just likes to complain about them instead though lol

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You know Presidente,

 

I could say Massive British Torpedos that negate my wave lurker, lots of fun for everyone.  Massive Heat lance dice, fun for everyone.  Massive tesla and boarding, fun for everyone.  Most nations have things that are not fun for your opponent.

 

I do not think the drones are overpowered, yes the assault carrier needs to be nerfed.  The Dread and Battleship both need a little love especially the Aristotle.   The fact is until you give the COA a while to deal with Larges and Massives the only  semi reliable answer is drones.  If you make the other large and Massives better and bring down the assault carrier, and you will fix most of your problems.

 

I keep reading everybody's post and you guys really must be playing games that last like 10 or 11 turns, for the drones to make that much of a difference.

 

Once the Diophantus is brought back in line, I do not think you are going to have that many sea based carriers on the front line.

 

It is also okay for the CoA to have the best SAS operations in the game, someone has to have that distinction, so why not us.  All I hear is we cant have a large dice pool and we should not have this, you know what all that is rubbish.

 

I have always thought the PA was the most overhyped thing in the COA, never been a fan, hell why do I want the largest dice pool on my large and massive to be a weapon that is designed to kill smalls.   My large and Massives should be designed to fight other large and Massives.

I think your lack of understanding on some of the more obvious aspects of the game combined with the fact you decide 6 weeks after the last post to have a go at someone for having an opinion that is largely shared by alot of COA players and others is quite shocking.

 

The fact you think drones being far superior to everyone elses is ok, combined with having almost unlimited SAS, better carriers in terms of redoubtable and can ditch after an attack run to bring wings back........again it might be the COA "thing"

 

However the ability to then spam them to the high heavens and still think thats ok....thats slightly more off. in most games around 4 -5 turns will allow 2 or 3 attack runs with SAS - more than enough to take down most flying units, your either not playing proper games, or your meta doesn't have flying units.

 

once the Diophantus is brought back in line - dont you mean - once its lost its carrier 9 upgrade, which ironically puts it exactly where it was, borderline broken.

 

I do agree that the other larges need to be more viable - thats why the Diophantus is such an obvious choice.

 

Particle accelerators - what do you want??? I mean, other than a huge laser that can wipe out smalls and do alot of damage to mediums........... how can you have a template weapon that can do enough damage to larges and massives.........short answer is without breaking the game you cant. unless they give it an option to fire a focused beam with more AD and a dispersed beam for template fun

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Thyphs,

 

So glad you chimed in, I love to see you over here complaining, even though you play the best fleet in the game.  French need to be toned down across the board more then anybody, but that is a topic for another day.  Wait I think you just won a tournament, you must of been playing COA with the way you complain about them, oh sorry you where playing French with two sky fortress in a 1000 pts, bet that was just as fun as all the drones.  

 

Lets look at some of the facts.  

 

1. Yes the Assault carrier needs to be nerfed, I do believe that is what I said earlier, and nerf means to reasonable levels, even before the starting point.

2.  When you launch the new wave of drones they sit still for a turn, and cant move.

 

So like I said earlier unless you are playing like 10 plus turn games, how many real activations are you getting?

 

You have just made my point with the PA,  our large and massives should be able to kill large and massives, not smalls.  Plus lets be honest, PA tend to really kill bad players, and are so so verse a good player.

 

The drones themselves are fine, if you want to slow the bomber and torp to 12 like everyone else I can see that.   The problem is not the drones, it is the fact there is no other viable options to reliably

go after Large and Massives.

 

Everybody can spam fighters, have you never played a game against some one with lots of carriers only to keep droping there sas squardans to 1 and them replenishing and relauching, Yes the Coa do it better, but like I said, somebody is going to be the best in each category

 

Almost every weapon in the game is scary against the right target.   You shoot a lot of torpedos at wavelurkers and you destroy them, because they pay for that defense, that you ignore.

 

You know Thyphs, if the COA drone spam is the most broken list, then you would of played it at your tournament, because looking at your French list, there is no doubt you are a win at all cost kind of guy.

 

Guess I should just start calling you two guys, Chicken Little.

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