Jump to content
Bongfu

Playing Chinese

Recommended Posts

So I have a problem. 

 

The player who got me into playing Dystopain Wars now changed from FSA to playing Chinese. The problem is he is one of those guys who has a lot of money and no sense not to spend it on shinies. So he has virtually everything for the Chinese at his disposal. While the rest of us three have (at most) two fleet boxes. 

 

To be frank, I find the Chinese a bit too good. There really is no downside to playing them and with his access to whatever he wants I can never win a game against him. Even today when it was the combined might of Prussia and my French array against him he wiped the board with us. 

 

So I need some advice, both as fighting them as French and fighting them in general. 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Depending on what models you have, the French can take down a Chinese fleet.

(True, I do have s---loads of models, bought whenever my tax return is large enough for a spending spree)

If you PM me what models you have access to, I can make some lists/tactical suggestions for taking on the Chinese

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Firstly, a few questions.

 

If you can't beat the Chinese, is this 20 games when you have been crushed every time, or three close fought ones where the Chinese happen to come out ahead a little

 

When they were playing the FSA,  how did your games go?

 

 What kind of points do you play? Are you using a sensible size board for the games with sufficient terrain  are you using any house rules, or ignoring any significant bits of the game- i.e Force orders, fleet composition rules etc.

 

 Thoughts on playing the Chinese, and playing them as the French.

 

 Ignore the larges. They're tough and slow. The Smalls have more speed, lots of AP, and flamethrowers which combine to high AD scores.  Cripple those squadrons before they act. On the mediums, the carriers and battle cruiser have both got extra VP attached, and are well worth sinking first. Also, it is easier to deal with them than the cruisers or gunships.

 

 They often have lots of small squadrons of SAS in the air. If possible, destroy squadrons entirely, before they can be made functional again. Redoubtable AA is handy here.

 

I can't remember the last time I won against the Chinese fleet staying at range ( I don't play FSA or CoA very often) The last two times I have played them ( French and Italians)  I have had two close games, because  aggressively advanced a significant portion of my units. The French get close to make the best of those secondary weapons, and force the RB1 primary penalty on the Chinese. Also, using indiscriminate weaponry such as mines against them to ignore generators and rugged construction is very handy.

 

 

The Italians were using their speed and  hit and run to get out of the Chinese fire arcs where possible, making use of close quarter gunnery, and forcing the slow chinese fleet to change direction

 

In both cases, I was consciously placing units where they would die, but by forcing the enemy to deal with them, it would cost them more time and effort than they were worth.

 

 

The above list looks solid enough, if a little heavy on the smalls- you're over the 40% limit. Lyons are good, but I'd swap some out for Requins; the Chinese are not good at defending against boarding, if  you can cripple or prize a large unit, that is well worth doing. In particular, the commodore is a great target, as force wide disorder checks can cripple the whole force.  Or drop some Lyons to upgrade the Magenta to a St Malo.

 

EDIT: Lyons are 25pt frigates, not 30 pt frigates.......

James

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Brunn

 

This has been going on for nine games now. When we played FSA it always came down to the wire, but lately it has been him dominating the VP gains early in the game. Then after a few turns of being on fire and dying of corrosive, he boards me with his huge AP ships and I lose everything. 

 

We are normally playing 1k-2k. We have a full 4x6 table we play all our games on. Terrain wise, we tend to either stick with a lot of little things scattered about or a few large defining features. We are not ignoring any rules that I know of, grant I am still somewhat a new player, but I have read the rulebook several times. He is a rules-lawyer, so I don't imagine we are missing anything (Like literally this guy has a rulebook with him at anytime so he can just read it over and over). 

 

Interesting notes, especially Italians (a fleet I was looking at picking up). I know I need more mediums. I am planning on purchasing some Toulons and an aerial box soon (waiting for painting commission money to come in). 

 

Also, those Lyons are only 35% of my force, so well within the 40% I am allotted :) (Unless I misunderstand how army comp works). 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think Bunnahabhain mistook the price of the frigates for 30 instead of the 25 they are.

It's a good idea to have a large amount of smalls in general against a boarding heavy fleet, but, even though the Lyon is dependable, it is not a workhorse like the Uwatsus or Arminius are.

Being obscured is a great way to combat boarding parties. If you have them, Furieux love dropping 8AD mines in the middle of fleets and the Tourbillon has enough AD to remain viable hitting on 5+ as well as being a nice carrier.

Sadly, being limited in your models also means being limited in your tactics. I hope your opponent doesn't mind if you proxy some models you don't have yet. It sure can make the battle more diverse and hopefully less one-sided.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This has been going on for nine games now. When we played FSA it always came down to the wire, but lately it has been him dominating the VP gains early in the game. Then after a few turns of being on fire and dying of corrosive, he boards me with his huge AP ships and I lose everything.

 

That sounds really strange. The CF doesn't have that many incendiary or corrosive weapons. The flamethrowers are all short ranged and fixed arc. The rocket bombard is only carried by one ship. Its a rocket weapon an as such suceptibe to AA wich the RoF has a lot of.

Most RoF ships are faster than their CF counterparts. Some are significantly faster. This means you have the manoeuvre advantage. The CF have weakish AA on lots of their untis the RoF has a very good air force. The CF is not unbeatable powerfull. They are more difficult for RoF than others but that is it. Without further knowledge I would assume you are doing somthing wrong.

 

Could you tell us what you opponent used and a little about the tactics you employ? How do you use you SAS for example.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That sounds really strange. The CF doesn't have that many incendiary or corrosive weapons. The flamethrowers are all short ranged and fixed arc. The rocket bombard is only carried by one ship. Its a rocket weapon an as such suceptibe to AA wich the RoF has a lot of.

Most RoF ships are faster than their CF counterparts. Some are significantly faster. This means you have the manoeuvre advantage. The CF have weakish AA on lots of their untis the RoF has a very good air force. The CF is not unbeatable powerfull. They are more difficult for RoF than others but that is it. Without further knowledge I would assume you are doing somthing wrong.

 

Could you tell us what you opponent used and a little about the tactics you employ? How do you use you SAS for example.

 

Maybe I should check his rules, but he is not the kind of player to cheat or anything. It just seems like everything he shoots me with causes a flaming token and his crits corrode. Concussive shells don't help me either. 

 

My main tactic is to screen my mediums and larges with the Lyons. So In the last game I ran a 2 squads of four and 2 squads of three. They rush out and prevent him from getting close to my main fleet early on. However his flying carrier and those bombers just fly right over the Lyons unfortunately. 

 

My second line is always my Dieppes. They are my dependable workhorses. Typically I send them to engage one of his larges or a squad of smalls (he runs a lot of Nus). The Cherbourg, in this case, is dedicated to killing his dragon. However, I have to get within charging range to do so which can be potentially devastating to me. 

 

Lastly my Couronne is normally supporting the Dieppes while the Magenta runs with the Cherbourg. Between those two groups I try to focus fire one thing to ensure its dead before the next turn. As much as I can I focus on getting stuff that has not activated yet, but its not always possible. 

 

My SASs have been taken up by fighters recently because he just smalls the **** out of dive bombers. I have no choice (even with French AA) to make all my tiny fliers fighters. 

 

General tactics wise I try and keep him between range band 2-3. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The number of weapons that the CF has that actually do have incendiary and corrosive tokens is very limited. To be precise its the flamethrowes and rocket bombards.

 

The flamethrowers are short range with limited arcs and the bombards usually come alone so they can build large AD pools. In addition they are rockets so you can use you AA against them. I really don't see how you suffer more under the CFs weapons than they do under yours. The heat lance has incediary too... in addition to piercing and pinpoint attack.

 

I have a hard time believing that you really need to go all fighters with both the LAS and the complement of the Couronne. How much flat tops does he bring?

 

As RoF its better to use torp bombers than dive bombers. Against CF you don't even need them since they have no shields. Torp bombers allow for stand off range and the RoF ones are more resillient to interception.

 

I am not sure what you mean with screening you mediums and larges with smalls. In DW its usually done the other way round. You hide your smalls behind the bigger units. Until they are in optimum range and come out of hiding to deliver their firepower.

The Lyon is a solid frigate. Its best used by moving in between the opposing units since it can fire in three directions at once. Against the CF you want to get into RB1 and not stay in RB2. Their guns suffer in RB1 yours don't. Since the flame throwers are limited arc and you ships are faster it is possible to fight them in RB1 without getting flamed.

 

The Tian Long is not really that scary. Its slow and vulnurable. Even with a Heat Lance a Magenta can reliable damage it in RB3 by linking its remaining turret an one BS. Same can the Cherbourg... but with heat lances. The Tian Long can't cross a range band in one activation (7") move. Both the Magenta and Cherbourg can. So its possible to engage the Tian Long in RB3 once without it being able to close into RB2 in its own activation. Giving you the initiative. Effectively you can kite it. The bombard will loose effectiveness quickly when it takes damage.

 

Its also not necessary to kill or sink everything. Often its more effective to only neutralise a squadron and then switch target. A squadron of smalls doesn't need to be sunk for example. Shoot them down to two ships and they are not really a threat anymore. This is often true to mediums as well. Once all available targets are neutralised or reduced by putting damage on them start to sink them.

 

Since your opponent uses lots of frigates you might be better of not using Dieppes. They are solid ships but the Marseille is more effective against "small targets". It can also move onto land and this become difficult to reach for boarding. I also noticed that you run 14 Lyons... this doesn'T make full squadrons. Use either 12 or 16. Full squadrons are conciderable more effective... to the point where two Lyons are a waste of points. If you drop the two Lyons and switch the Dieppes for Marseilles you can get an Ecuyer and have 10 Pts for an SAS Ace. The Ecuyer will help you seize controll of the skys and makes the unit its attached to more resilient (especially against boarding and rocket attacks). Since the Ecuyer is fast enough you can attach it to either the Magenta or the Couronne.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Bongfu,

 

I have already beaten Chinese fleet several time with my RoF, even if I must admit that they are really diffult opponents for us.

Against them I use long range "hit and flee" tactic, keeping most of their forces in RB3-4 for the most part of a game.

The most usefull squadron in our invantory to battle chineses are :

- Vauban (for larger games) (but the Charlemagne also works thanks to the Telsa giving him additional speed to out manover CF fleet)

- full gun magenta (La Rochelle is efficient only at close, and 7AP is not enough to survive there against CF, Saint-Malo arcs of fire are not adapted for hit & run tactic (90° front for bombar and linked turrets)

- Tourbillon (better at long range than the Couronne, and more survivable)

 

- Dieppes are excellent mediums, but should turn around CF fleet (using 270° arc of fire of both turrets) and not go ahead to CF fleet.

- Furieux should be your covering forces, laying mines on the path of incoming CF. They are a pain for a low AA opponent as CF.

- Voltaires could  also help against CF smalls and bunch of SAW

 

For smalls, I useally use only 1 squadron of Lyon and then :

- Chevaliers (18 AD or 2x10AD rockets are a curse for low AA CF)

- Frelons are also good as they can wait obscured for incoming CF and then bomb them without receiving to much counter fire from CF low AA.

 

Usually, I deploy my fleet in the center area, and then (depending on the terrain and the place of opponent larges) I choose a side to make a large turning manover around incoming CF fleet.

The CF have to break the distance and must go full speed directly at you preventing them to use efficiently theur broadside or linked turrets. And because of different speeds they cannot arrive in a single group. So you should manage to destroy or reduce  most dangerous models before they come in effective range. 

And as it has been said before : don't waste AD on too big and hard models, it's better to crit a medium than to miss a damage on the Zhanmadao ! 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I recently played a CF fleet at 1000 pts and whilst they are tough i found our ships to be much better.

here is my list

St Malo

Tourbillon

3 Dieppes

4 Epulards

4 lyons

3 Almas

I always focus down smalls and mediums first and in an ironic way the st malo and tourbillon can do this very well....whilst they cant pool weapons for high dice pools they are perfect for firing multiple volleys at the same squads or at differnt squads on either side.

The Malo for example can fire broadside 2 turrets and its bombard at a single squad depending how their lined up. Think about it.....RB 3 a squad of smalls taking 8,8,8,9 from one ship...it may be 6s to hit in some cases....but if you control the smalls and medium game then in most circumstances you will stand a better chance to win

Link to comment
Share on other sites

To sum up what we have learned until now:

Some people stay at range some go in close. Some use certain units wich other find unsuitable against the CF... yet all are reasonably successfull.

 

It seems a fair conclusion that it is possible to beat the CF if the RoF. Exact unit selection is not really important if the units a used correctly.

 

The key is target priorities and manoeuvre.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I would disagree...... if he cant win with what he has time and time again it suggests that perhaps the ships he has are inadequate to win. Im not suggesting that is always the case, but sometimes some ships are just purely better at a job than another.

I dont rate a magenta when compared to a St Malo or Tourbillon for example....but its horses for courses

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Magenta isn't a bad ship for its points. Of course the St Malo ist more powerfull 1vs1 buts it costs 80 Pts more.

The Tourbillon is pretty cheap points whise. Certainly a good unit.

 

I don't think that the list postet is to blame or unusable. Of course there is room for improvement (full squadrons) but it doesn't explain why he looses over and over. The unit he uses are not that bad. Neither is the combination.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Magenta isn't a bad ship for its points. Of course the St Malo ist more powerfull 1vs1 buts it costs 80 Pts more.

The Tourbillon is pretty cheap points whise. Certainly a good unit.

I don't think that the list postet is to blame or unusable. Of course there is room for improvement (full squadrons) but it doesn't explain why he looses over and over. The unit he uses are not that bad. Neither is the combination.

No the magenta isnt a bad ship, but I dont think its a line leader....at small points yes, but around the 1k + mark you need something a little more tough.

But this aside, do we even know if the CF player is playing by the rules? Just from whats been said from above??

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The saint Malo is worth every point in that 80 points over the magenta.

 

 

Wich wasn't the point. It doesn't help you if you don't have the points difference to spend. Furthermore in every nation in DW if you compare one unit with one significantly more expensive the cheaper on allways looks bad. Comparing the Magenta to the St Malo is comparing a BB on the cheap end to a hBB. Even if you compared an average priced BB, like the Emperor for example, to a hBB the former looks pale... or in short: you can'T easily compare apples and oranges.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@president : I don't agree : the magenta doesn't look pale when compared with Saint Malo, as they are clearly not in the same role within the fleet.

 

You should try to engage a Shielded Emperor with a Saint Malo... It's not easy at all (you will not scratch it until RB2! and even at RB2, it will only be for a single HP most of the time), while a full gun Magenta will put some damage on it at RB3 and a HL one will put 2 damage and a crit effect at RB2. 

On the other hand a Saint Malo is able to ruin a full medium squadron in a single turn, while the Magenta couldn't...

 

One is not better than the ofter, they are just too different to be compared.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Wich wasn't the point. It doesn't help you if you don't have the points difference to spend. Furthermore in every nation in DW if you compare one unit with one significantly more expensive the cheaper on allways looks bad. Comparing the Magenta to the St Malo is comparing a BB on the cheap end to a hBB. Even if you compared an average priced BB, like the Emperor for example, to a hBB the former looks pale... or in short: you can'T easily compare apples and oranges.

No, but you cant hammer a nail with a fork either. The OP said hes struggling with CF, now, if the CF player has access to unlimited forces and our RoF player only has select units to pick from, then perhaps we need to look at tactics. But as he is running a huge points sink in lyons there is room to tweak. All were suggesting is the best tools for the job. If its a case of models then would proxies be allowed???

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@president : I don't agree : the magenta doesn't look pale when compared with Saint Malo, as they are clearly not in the same role within the fleet.

You should try to engage a Shielded Emperor with a Saint Malo... It's not easy at all (you will not scratch it until RB2! and even at RB2, it will only be for a single HP most of the time), while a full gun Magenta will put some damage on it at RB3 and a HL one will put 2 damage and a crit effect at RB2.

On the other hand a Saint Malo is able to ruin a full medium squadron in a single turn, while the Magenta couldn't...

One is not better than the ofter, they are just too different to be compared.

indeed they are different, but his problem seems to stem from being unable to engage certain squads, which perhaps a Saint Malo can help with.

I laughed at your example though.... not being able to hurt an emperor....so 12 dice at RB 3 couldnt get even a DR but its 15 at RB 2 could. By the same token i dont think much of the emperors chances to scratch the Malo at any rangeband using the same example flipped around, yet it has a better chance of hurting a magenta

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.


×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.