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AbidingDude

Veydreth 1200pt fleets.

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Hey gang, I'm picking up some of the V-dreth to support my soys,but it never hurts to get enough to field a fleet, so, here's what I'm thinking, 

 

T1

BB

 

T2

3 destroyers, ambush (2)

3  cruisers, ambush (1)

3  cruisers, ambush (1)

 

T3

5 corvettes, mines

5 corvettes, mines 

 

the plan is basically haul ass up the board with the corvettes pooping mines to protect myself, and put all the ambush markers midway up the board or so, finally shunting in the BB.  

 

with any luck the elusive corvettes will stay alive long enough make it to the fight, the BB will drop in turn 1 or 2, and everything else will ambush when the BB gets there.  I'm hoping to essentially have my fightspoision happen around the middle of the board.  I am super afraid of this though because all having elusive means is I expect the corvettes to eat probably half losses, or full losses before the fight even starts.  I'm considering taking the regroup mar just to help with that, and keep the battered to hell corvettes combat effective.  

 

the other way I could lean is:

 

T1

BB, +2 MN, +2AP

 

T2

3 destroyers, ambush (2)

3 Heavy cruisers

3 Heavy cruisers

 

T3

5 corvettes

5 corvettes

 

Same plan for the destroyers, set them wide, and essentially get a controlled flank, then move more up the board but with more ability to shrug off damage, shunt in the BB, and begin pooping mines.hopefully in the first volley damage some PD and assault the second round.

 

Thoughts?

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Keep in mind the rules for Hidden Set-up (page 38):

Alternatively, a Commander may choose to reveal one of their Markers during the Reserve Phase of the Turn. A Squadron revealed this way may activate during the current Turn.

You can only voluntarily reveal one marker per turn, so it's kinda like you have a unit shunting in every turn, but to a fixed location and at Full Stop. On the plus side, Hidden Set-up is not Reserve Deployment.

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Huh, that's some funny wording.

 

I'd argue that the actually *are* a form of reserve deployment, as it states "allow squadrons to deploy using "hidden set up" in place of other reserve deployment."  So you couldn't ambush half your fleet, and shunt the rest.

 

As for only revealing one squad a turn... I can see how the RAW would imply that, but I can't imagine that was the intention.  That's not how ambushes work at all!

 

"Alright men, they've walked into our trap.  Now, go get them!  One at a time boys, come on, one at a time!  Don't want to surprise them too much!"

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@AD

 

While both fleets you posted seem plausible, I strongly believe that all of the Alliance races, regardless if they are Kurak or Zenian or whatever, need to combine forces with other Alliance races in order to be effective as compared to the Core races. Let me explain a bit:

 

When I played the Kurak Alliance, I gamed with Tarakian, Xelocian, Hawker and Ruyshi squadrons, at various point levels ranging from 400 - 1800pts, in various scenarios (we had 8 different scenarios in our campaign). When I did field a single Alliance race (for instance all Hawker), the fleet was missing something. That "something" was the loss of variety that robbed me from better utilizing my squadrons against my opponents in the longterm. All of my opponents played Core races, with Terrans, Relthoza, Dindrenzi and Aquans being the most common opponent that I went up against in nearly 20 battles. In all of those battles, when I did bring a variable Alliance force that consisted of squadrons from many Alliance races, I tended to do much better and secure at the very least a tie if not an outright win.... In other battles, when I fielded a single Alliance race, I tended to do poorly and generally lost the battle irrespective of the size (point value) of the battle.

 

In my strong opinion, the Alliance races need all types of playing pieces (think of it as chess pieces of sort) in order to befuddle, confuse and ultimately force your opponent to keep guessing as to your force composition and its battle goals throughout the game. By simply having a number of different races on the tabletop, you are able to (through forced or unforced means) exert more pressure and sow more discord among your enemies. At least that was my experience.

 

Your all Veydreth force is good (while I would yell at you for not taking Gunships which are the ultimate flankers afforded to the True Alliance forces), but to make them more competitive try looking toward a more combined race approach in this matter. 

 

Just a few thoughts. 

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Yeah, I've reanalyzed the plan and am more willing to admit the gunships are good, I just hate seeing that word vulnerable (I know it's not really all that bad), and I'm way more in favor of a moderately buffed BB, mineless  smals, and 2 gunships with a destroyer for the feint ambush.  if I was to replace anything it would probably be the smalls, and I'm very open to suggestion.  But if duckbird is right then it's kind of a moot point, since the super ambush strategy depends on only having 250 pts on the table turn one. 

 

Also as a side note, if I'm trying to do an allied fleet, I should still need to call it a "X" race fleet and meet the core requirements from that race right?  So in this case I'd have to take a T1 T2, and 2 T3 from the veydreth before adding others, right?

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also, 

pg. 38
 
"After all other models have been deployed, players
use the current Order of Initiative to take turns placing
any Hidden Set-Up..."
 
which suggest that hidden setup is a different deployment option than reserve.  Although, I'd suggest that this RAW v RAI discussion heads over to the  http://community.spartangames.co.uk/index.php?/topic/13196-clarification-on-ambushhidden-set-up/ which I've started to try to get clarification on a different aspect of the same MAR.  

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Yeah, I've reanalyzed the plan and am more willing to admit the gunships are good, I just hate seeing that word vulnerable (I know it's not really all that bad), and I'm way more in favor of a moderately buffed BB, mineless  smals, and 2 gunships with a destroyer for the feint ambush.  if I was to replace anything it would probably be the smalls, and I'm very open to suggestion.  But if duckbird is right then it's kind of a moot point, since the super ambush strategy depends on only having 250 pts on the table turn one. 

 

 

If you are aiming at gaming 1,200pts, I would strongly encourage you to go with a Dreadnought from another ally. You will be seriously handicapped if you run a fleet without a heavy hitter, and a single BB will not stand up that well against an equally sized fleet with a Dreadnought+BB+other capitals.... As I posted above, I don't believe that Alliance races are able to stand on even ground against Core races (or other Alliance races as well) if they go mono-Alliance ships. My experience told me that they aren't able to shine, other gamers in my group were of the same opinion. 

 

In our campaign we made several tweaks to the rules and added notable changes that helped us, for example, have varied sized fleets go against one another and rules that attempted to address the inequalities of the Large ships vs Mediums and Smalls. I will PM those to you if you care to read them, but I will not post them here because a self-righteous beta tester will surely come on and cry foul. (something that has occurred several times on these forums)

 

You can always take any game, including this one, and add or remove various rules to make it more compatible to a higher denominator; your gaming group. This was certainly our case and our tweaks worked out nicely. Not perfectly, which is a standard high to reach, but nicely. (for example, gaming battles where 1,200pt fleets went up against 800pt fleets with a simple Victory Point modification that allowed the smaller fleet to achieve victory is simply beautiful to see on the tabletop. Believe me)  :)

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Also as a side note, if I'm trying to do an allied fleet, I should still need to call it a "X" race fleet and meet the core requirements from that race right?  So in this case I'd have to take a T1 T2, and 2 T3 from the veydreth before adding others, right?

 

That is correct. Unless something changed since I have been gone.

 

Given that you are wanting to play primarily with a Veydreth force, you certainly can and should do so. The added Vulnerable trait for the gunships shouldn't be too much of a deterrent; it isn't that overpowering/defeating. And I strongly encourage you to field full squadrons whenever you can, and even more so with these gunships. By design, these ships have double mines which can further be impressed upon and buffed up, which would allow them to be overly effective at what they are designed to do - lay mines, or double mines against small ships, and then unleash fire in 3 directions. This is why I believe them to be the most effective flankers that the True Alliance forces have access to. These ships come more into their own when you field larger fleets, say 1,200pts and above. The frigates can also lay mines, up to a Mine 12 if I am correct, but are rather costly per ship for that one trait. (something like 30pts apiece, right?)

 

Anyways, have fun, put your roster together and roll some dice.  :)   And kill Zenian scum wherever you encounter them. Kill first, ask questions later.

 

 

 

 

I don't buy it Sky Admiral,...

 

 

No problem. I ain't selling nuthin'.    :P

 

PS: good to "see" you around. 

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In both of your lists, you have the Hunter Destroyers as ambushers. I think the Hunters work best plinking away from deployment (as they have the range to start shooting most anything from turn 1) and being annoying with their stealth systems and upgraded high energy beams.

 

If you only take 1 unit to ambush then I would choose the Stalkers so that you can get the best placement to setup an assault (be sure to upgrade to second assault) and "gank" whatever your Hunters and Predator have damaged or to place an 8AD mine where its going to be most damaging (Hello smalls...). In larger games, I would then add the Gunships in ambush or a second unit of Stalkers. Next to the Terquai assault cruiser it's one of the best in Kurak for assault.

 

I would always give the Reavers mines as it gives them some real teeth being able to drop 9AD linked mines being as fast as they are. You can drop mines in front and zoom to rear arcs. Or, if you know your opponent is shunting in their reserves then you can leave booby traps near objectives or in the likely open spaces.

 

The Carnivores are kinda "meh" they need to be in RB2 for optimal damage but their defenses are not that great for them to actually get there. Onslaught Gunships are 10 pts. cheaper and bring a lot more to the table IMO even without upgrades.

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Well, I guess I kind of forgot to say it, but after a lengthy conversation on the rules forums about how ambush works, I'm much less excited about the veys. 

 

I saw a MAR called ambush and thought of the narrative of the battle playing out as such-

Other guys: "look a small pack of ships on the radar, possibly a scouting squad, let's go kill them"

My guys: "Waiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit"

Other guys: "Ha ha, now we are moving towards those vulnerable ships"

My guys: "Reveal, pew pew pew!"

Other guys: " OH NO! We are defeated!, death"

 

As it turns out the rules do not support that narrative.

 

So in that mindset  I liked the destroyers in ambush since it gives me a "fake" token to play with so counter play gets harder.  And I understand giving reavers mines being a good thing, but in my head the table was basically chopped into thirds, the two deploy sections, and the middle scrimmage third, ideally I was planning to only have the reavers in my deploy and the entire ambush in the scrimmage/ their deploy plus a shunting BC.  so spending extra points on mines makes less sense since the bulk of the minelaying will happen on the section of the board I never expect there to be a fight followed by the section I expect a dense packing of shps, mine included. 

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Keep in mind only Assault Cruisers and Gunships can get ambush, and only as an upgrade. Think about how they synergize with the destroyers.

For example, you take a unit of cruisers and destroyers, and get three ambush markers. Place the destroyers where you need them, and place the other two markers in the middle of the board. Reveal the destroyers Turn 1, so they can start shooting.

Now your opponent has two locations for the Assault Cruisers. If he try's to avoid them entirely, you win. If he tries to reveal them, you win, because that should place your Assault Cruisers right on top of one of his squadrons, exactly where you need them to be. Best case, he tries to reveal, you pass your command check, and reveal them at the start of the next turn.

The worst case is being forced to reveal them on your own, but in the wrong position. In this case, it's probably best to simply keep them hidden, or reveal and FSD out.

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Ambush is still a great thing to have. It always has an impact on the board moreso depending on the types of terrain you have available to you. Also, if you are using the moving terrain rules as being able to exactly place models it becomes really significant. It isn't as nasty as say Hidden Killer, but you can definitely do board control with it.

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