Over a half a year has gone by, thoughts on 2.0 EotBS ?

[BasicBob]

As a playtester for Spartan Games Dystopian Wars last summer I basically shut up and listened to you guys play the games and read what was on your mind. Well the game has been out now a sufficient amount of time and we playtesters expect to be called in for "duty" at anytime now, so I want to know what you think of the EotBS 2.0 ?

 

Is the EotBS fun to play ? Competitive ? Are the new units worth adding to your fleet ? In general what are your thoughts ? Both positive and negative. I have mine of which I can share with Spartan directly, but I want to hear yours. Thanks for your response !

BasicBob

 

 

 

 

 

( And please don't ask about playtesting....we are under a NDA. Which is strongly enforced !! )

[Per Andersson]

I didn't play much in the previous edition at all, and hasn't really played as much as I'd like in this edition. Having said that, I find the EoBS to be quite powerful, and very flexible. Some of the generator options strike me as being a bit WTF, but other than that I have nothing to complain about.

[Grand-Stone]

Pro's version 2 in general:

-higher firepower in general. Good thing

-carriers! Now they can be used as carriers!

 

 

EoBS:

Pros:

+Heavy BB is fun.

+Terror ship is a cool and a lot of fun.

+Disruption node generators!!! Both powerful and useful!

+I like fixed channels. Fixed channels makes turrets feel much more flexible

 

 

Cons:

-sonic generator is still a question mark for me.

-Ika! I still love them, and I do like the robot rules changes in general for robots, cuz two IKA's was a bit overpowered earlier. But, it seems a bit meeh... Maybe that's cuz I play against FSA which uses a large heavy fleet, and try to stay at long ranges.

 

 

Wishlist:

-Units which can exploit all the fires...

-Fleet carrier

-SAS which could carry AP! (would have been darn fun)

[BasicBob]

 

Wishlist:

 

-Fleet carrier

 

 

I must admit that one does bother me a bit. Especially when the other Core 7 nations have carriers with better ratings. It would seem to me that if any new model is being designed for the EotBS it would be a Fleet carrier with CV 9. Well it is a new year and we all may be pleasantly surprised.

[Meowmix]

The Good:
-Extremely powerful, highly versatile navy

-Going along with the above, the versatility of the force allows for a wide range of play styles, even while running the same or similar lists
-Force is designed around a few simple concepts that result in a satisfying, uncomplicated play experience

-New units fit the visual aesthetic of the force perfectly

 

 

The Bad:
-Commodore abilities are extremely weak, especially when compared to the commodore abilities of other major nations
-A lot of the more "exotic" units are outclassed by their simpler counterparts (the Ika and the Yurei come to mind)

-Air and Ground forces pale in comparison to the Navy (though this is something I often find true for most forces, not just the EotBS)

-Sonic Generators are very weak, and present a very unappealing alternative to our other generator options

 

Overall, I feel that the EotBS is an extremely powerful faction, easily in the top three in terms of competitive viability. There are a few hiccups here and there, mostly when it comes to internal balance between their units, and of course the completely forgettable commodore abilities, but for the most part the force is incredibly solid and a joy to play.

 

Also, just a small aside here that's related to the topic at hand and is on my mind...when it comes to balance, I feel that the question is too often "What should we nerf?" instead of "What should we make better?". This goes for both internal balance within a single faction, and external balance amongst the game as a whole. I feel that rather than looking at the top units/factions and trying to bring them down, one should look at the bottom units/factions and try to bring them up.

[Grand-Stone]

Jupp. Having everything 'overpowered' is a far more enjoyable than the opposite.

 

 

The problem with the IKA is that it cannot reliable assault a large for a critical. It can crit, ...

[BasicBob]

Jupp. Having everything 'overpowered' is a far more enjoyable than the opposite.

 

 

The problem with the IKA is that it cannot reliable assault a large for a critical. It can crit, ...

You can not expect a model that is valued at 115 points to take down another model that is valued at 180 points + on a consistent basis. Although with the robot boarding rules AND the Ika being a diving robot it does have decent odds at doing so.

[BasicBob]

Meowmix

What did you mean by " the exotic are outclassed by their simpler counterparts ( the Ika and the Yurei come to mind ) ."

[Bunnahabhain]

Jupp. Having everything 'overpowered' is a far more enjoyable than the opposite.

 

 

The problem with the IKA is that it cannot reliable assault a large for a critical. It can crit, ...

 

Really?

 

8 Elite AP  and Sustained assault (3), ignoring Shields and Armour MARs. That averages about 11 hits. Most Larges have CR10, and there are plenty of carriers on CR8.

 

Given  you'll also be hitting the same target with a AD10 gun, you can expect another DR damage. So, if you can get it to boarding range,  that is probably 1 DR, a Crit and another DR from Hull breaker.

 

The Ika has CR 9 and rugged construction.  The only common unit that can reliably Crit that underwater are torp bombers, and you have CC 7, so you'll need a 5 strong squadron to reliably crit it...

 

James

[Grand-Stone]

Really?

 

8 Elite AP  and Sustained assault (3), ignoring Shields and Armour MARs. That averages about 11 hits. Most Larges have CR10, and there are plenty of carriers on CR8.

 

Given  you'll also be hitting the same target with a AD10 gun, you can expect another DR damage. So, if you can get it to boarding range,  that is probably 1 DR, a Crit and another DR from Hull breaker.

 

The Ika has CR 9 and rugged construction.  The only common unit that can reliably Crit that underwater are torp bombers, and you have CC 7, so you'll need a 5 strong squadron to reliably crit it...

 

James

 

Underwater, its very well protected. But it can't do anything under water either. So you do spend a lot of turns under water waiting to get into position then you grab.

With averrage of hits about 10, that gives you 50/50 to crit a CR10. If you do get of one shot beating the DR & a crit, you do 4HP in damage, and maybe get 1HP in damage yourself.

That is great. Not bad at all. 4HP is a lot. Well used points.

 

But if you don't crit, (approximatly 50% probability) You do 1-2 HP in damage, and risk getting 1HP damage in return. If the enemy has CAP or escorts or something, you may even risk 2HP against you. 

Then you have spend 2-3 turns setting up for this action, with limited results. And once it pops upp, my experience is that it will die realy fast. I'm not saying the IKA is extremly poor. Cuz it's not. Just saying, the risk of the IKA feeling very usless is high.

 

My opponent doesn't use much carriers (at least not so far) so, you may be right that versus carriers it might be far better.

[Meowmix]

Meowmix

What did you mean by " the exotic are outclassed by their simpler counterparts ( the Ika and the Yurei come to mind ) ."

 

More often than not I feel you're better served taking something simple and straightforward, like a Mizuchi, or a squad of Nakatsu or especially Tanuki, than the equivalent or near-equivalent amount of points of our less standard units, like the Ika or the Yurei.

 

Looking outside of our medium options, I'd much rather have a squad of Uwatsu or even Fujin than an Ika, and both the Kiyohime and Tenkei are far more attractive than the Yurei.

 

All in all, it's a simple question of "what are my points getting me?", and in these cases the units that are giving you the most bang for your buck are the simple ones that follow the EotBS playbook closely, rather than the ones that deviate from it. The Ika and Yurei are very specialized units, and while they may do an alright job doing what they were made for, there are other units in our force capable of performing those same roles, as well as tackling a multitude of other roles that the above two are incapable of.

[shad0wb0w]

In the case of the Yurei I agree but I have to disagree about the Ika. As an inexpensive threat to medium advanced deployment vessels it stands out quite well I feel, functioning as an area denial and delaying tactic for a flank.

[Grand-Stone]

To me it's opposite. I think the Yurei is ok, but the Ika could use a slight boost. If the enemy don't have a disruption node, it can fire and still be a ghost. Once the IKA surfaces, it attackts all firepower in the region.

 

Maybe the later part is why it feels poor.  Maybe the problem is that I play against FSA and that he always tries to stay as far away from me as possible. And he uses a heavy portion of his point into *large* units.

[Lord Nobody]

I think some of our units feel meh because they were much better in 1.0 and 1.1 DWs.

Take for example the Inari, in older editions I would not go to battle without them. Now there are many more medium options i would take before them.

The same could be said of the Ika. Is there a place for the them? Sure, just not the auto-include as they were before.

 

" Is the EotBS fun to play ? Competitive ? Are the new units worth adding to your fleet ? In general what are your thoughts ? Both positive and negative. I have mine of which I can share with Spartan directly, but I want to hear yours. Thanks for your response !

BasicBob "

 

Always fun to play.

Competitive yes.

New units almost always worth adding to our fleets.

 

New units I would like to see are both naval and air fleet carriers, large bomber, med. fliers and different Lt. cruisers.

 

Fixed channels are a EotBS staple. Please make them the correct fixed channel for a units function. Example: Arashi's forward channel when it should be to the side.

 

Final note, I purchase every campaign book SG puts out. I think we are due for a new one!

[Fire@Will]

 

Fixed channels are a EotBS staple. Please make them the correct fixed channel for a units function. Example: Arashi's forward channel when it should be to the side.

 

 

Eh? The point (as I see it) is to use the narrow frontage to take advantage of Fixed Channel, so you can snipe through gaps in your opponent's formations, rather than having to get full line of sight. Putting the Arashi's weapons to the side would be counterproductive. Besides, the model clearly shows forward facing!

[Meowmix]

Eh? The point (as I see it) is to use the narrow frontage to take advantage of Fixed Channel, so you can snipe through gaps in your opponent's formations, rather than having to get full line of sight. Putting the Arashi's weapons to the side would be counterproductive. Besides, the model clearly shows forward facing!

 

Speaking of the Arashi and wishlists: Bombard Rockets. A lot of my issues with the unit would be alleviated with that addition, but I think I may be the only person here that isn't a fan of the Arashi as-is.

[Grand-Stone]

After todays match, where my FSA opponent killed my carrier in one shot using his dreaded commandore ability...

And seing the potential of DIVE bombers

 

I wish for a stratosferic flying fleet-carrier (with 9 carrier points)...

[Lord Nobody]

Eh? The point (as I see it) is to use the narrow frontage to take advantage of Fixed Channel, so you can snipe through gaps in your opponent's formations, rather than having to get full line of sight. Putting the Arashi's weapons to the side would be counterproductive. Besides, the model clearly shows forward facing!

Not sure you have played with a Arashi's yet. It must pt forward to fire, yet the closer it gets to the enemy the weaker it gets. It is perfect if you have a stern chase, I have never had one in the games I play.

Try them out and see for yourself.

[Nazduruk_Bugzappa]

Not sure you have played with a Arashi's yet. It must pt forward to fire, yet the closer it gets to the enemy the weaker it gets. It is perfect if you have a stern chase, I have never had one in the games I play.

Try them out and see for yourself.

having been on the receiving end of these, if you are moving at more than a crawl with your Arashi squadron, you aren't using them right. The only time that they should be moving more than 2 or 3 inches is for picking a new target, after bringing the rain.

[Fire@Will]

Not sure you have played with a Arashi's yet. It must pt forward to fire, yet the closer it gets to the enemy the weaker it gets. It is perfect if you have a stern chase, I have never had one in the games I play.

Try them out and see for yourself.

 

I have used them. You only need to move 2", can start outside of 32" before you move into range to shoot, have Sharp Turn so you can switch targets, and only need one or 2 salvos before something else moves into range to finish the job.

As you might tell, I have used them.....regularly...

[Grand-Stone]

I did play a game yesterday, and I could review the units I used.

 

First I must say that the new setup is far superior to the old one.

 

1) Inari : scout gyro

I sent them up at the flank and the goal was to kill the smalls, and wreck havoc from behind. I still like them. They got bombs, guns & rockets and both guns and rockets causes fires, and they are scouts. Nice! Sadly though, I find it difficult to set them up such that you can use both guns & rocktets at the same time.  So these are the once which I find, meh. Maybe their to difficult to use.

These are maybe the first thing to drop out of my list. Cuz of it's difficulty to use.

 

Their firepower isn't bad, they are just difficult to use,  To large to easily fire both main guns & rockets. And you kind of need it for their firepower to be good.

 

Edit: I just noticed a glitch. I may have been playing LoS incorrectly. Since they are flying, they don't obscure each other vision, is this correct? If so, that makes them considerably easier to play.

 

2) Tenkei: sky fotress

I'm finnally starting to learn how to use carriers. Have all fighters close by. Being able to redo all fighters to dive-bombers once I see him using his planes as CAP => nice!

The Tenkei got forward guns, rockets and bombs. Very easy to use. No tricks, move forward and fire.  Causes fire to.

 

And after my x3 squads of divebombers took 4HP on a enemy BB AND a double crit on a cruisers, they really got their glory.

 

Easy to use and carriers have become so much fun.

 

3) Uwatsu: Fergates

I love their +1 in CR combined with small. Making it supprisingly durable.  More experience has also learned me how to use these correctly. New setup methode also helps advokate the use of smalls.

No longer is it the time when smalls head into each other, then medium and last large.  Fixed channels isn't that restrictive. It is irritating, but...

 

4) Fujin: Corvettes

Their gunnery isn't that bad, and with 14'' movement and their boarding threat, I set them up behind the big rock in the middle of the board. And they stroke when ready.

Fun and easy units to use. Can also be deadly against a weakened BB. 10 crazy AP... They are nice to have to exploit enemy weakness.

 

5) Nakatsu

They are difficult to use. They are big, and their fixed channels makes them clumsy. If you want to link fire, that is difficult!!!

But if you say to you self, screw linking, and just STRIKE independent targets, they work far better. Difficult to use broadsides, easy to use rockets, and torpedoes. You probably don't get to fire both broadsides and torpedoes at the same time. But you realy don't need to either. I'm starting to love these. Cheap light cruisers, which can do a bit of everything.

 

Difficult to use, but cheap and can do multiple of jobs. I love them.

 

6) Honsue, MK II and MK III

I set them up in forward position. Maybe that was a misstake. Or maybe I should have setup more units that way. But anyway, their potential to use broadside and link it with their turrets gives a decent amount of bang. My opponent said, wow, and attack them with all units. Once again, fixed channels makes it difficult to line up against the same target. But if you screw that, and fire at separate units, its far easier. And they do got the potential to do crit a medium without help anyway so. 

 

The disruption node is always great fun. Sadly it failed to pull of its trick this time around.

The mix and match of these are very good way to go. More flexibility as these are always welcome.

 

Somewhat difficult to setup especially versus a large, but very good firepower. Degrades fast with HP damage...

 

7) Yurei: Terror Ship

With the enemy lacking disruption node this time around, this is the unit I should have put up in front. This unit went through the fight without a scratch. Partly becuase my enemy said, meh. And partly cuz it's great. It does has 11 dice bombard rockets, with 360^o.  Which did some damage.  This is a low damage, high protection unit. But very very wounderable to 'disruption node' generators. The heavy flamer should not be underestimated, as it can wreck havoc by simply bypassing DR (not CR). I like that it has a sonic generator without being able to replace it. It's the only time I get to use sonic.

It does take some time to get into close position though. Partly because my opponent is FSA and wants to keep distance as much as possible.

 

But of course, if the enemy can fire at better targets, it will fire at better targets.

 

8) Kaiji

The pride and the joy of EoBS navy. Great guns and rockets, torpedoes (which I seldom get to use) and a broadside. The broadside i view upon as a bonus. Oh, I get to fire this weapon to. It good Cr, and disruption node generator. I don't see any reason why to ever choose sonic over shields.  Sadly yesterday it got into a poor position, fighting against 2 FSA battleships and a dreadnaught. But by the end of things, it got killed, but only after I had won the game. (killing all enemy smals, and sinking 50% of his forces)

 

My weakness of this list, versus his, is that I feel that my two sets of cruisers, are better at fighting medium/smalls than large, and my enemy typically uses lots of larges. The Tanukei may be better at fighting larges. Rockets are also very very nice when the enemy starts taking damage.

 

Compared to the FSA battleships, out heavies are outgunned, at least in long ranges. But it's not by that much. We cause fire in addition, and the FSA don't have much extra weapons on top of their main guns. And they have to choose between rockets AND shields. We do have broadsides, rockets, main guns AND shields all at once.

 

His list: x1 havey Battleship, x2 battleship, x1 dreadnaught, 1 cruiser, 1 light cruiser and x2 frigate.

I got 'kill all smalls, which was easy peasy. Then I needed to kill one of his BB to do so. I have halfway killed one, when it got teleported way, out of range and line of sight. Then I had to start killing another. He got 'kill all large, which his force was made for. The FSA commander ability is just grusomme. I don't like it   I killed all his mediums, all his smalls and one BB. He also manage to kill all my large, but only at the action after I had already won!

[Grand-Stone]

I also wish that the Inari could setup in the stratospheric layer. That would make a lot of sense, and be very helpful. 

[BasicBob]

I also wish that the Inari could setup in the stratospheric layer. That would make a lot of sense, and be very helpful. 

 But the Inari has the stratospheric MAR. so when you move it on the first turn just declare that it is in the stratospheric level.

[Grand-Stone]

 But the Inari has the stratospheric MAR. so when you move it on the first turn just declare that it is in the stratospheric level.

 

But I want it to be opposite... Sit there in stratospheric AND then move it down to fire. Then I can set it up far ahead of my navy, without risking it being killed before I can be activate it. If there is something nice and juicy below,... I can go fetch. It would make so much more sense to dive down when the fight starts than to go up.

[Fire@Will]

Start in Advance, then move into position early on. Chances are you will still need to move it forward in the first activation, even if you want to sit in a static position, just to get in amongst their fleet.