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Silverbeast

Our heavy tank

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... Wait...

*Facepalm*

 

@pa11ad1n, you joined the forums in Nov... I'm hazarding a guess you joined for and only play Planetfall. Meaning you haven't played Firestorm Armada much if at all...

 

I mention this because you just nail-headed 3/4 of the complaints about the Dindrenzi Navy, which work fine even up close once you learn them. In fact most thought (and many still think) they were overpowered then.

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Yes, they have high DR. Still, on average, worse defences than most (equivalent sized) things with shields though. Except at long range where hover makes all the difference.

CQB is a measure of short range effectiveness. If you are getting within 12" of the enemy you had better be prepared to fight in CQB. (And get outflanked because very few times will you be engaging enemy squadrons one on one.)

Oh, and the 12" firepower isn't amazing. It is worse than most. 12" to 24" it is the same as a Sedna (without any MARs).

And hover tanks only ignore models, NOT terrain. The base size also means that manoeuvring around buildings isn't all that easy. Easier than for lumbering elements, true, but an 8" move only goes so far when you have to go around buildings and it isn't far enough to avoid turrets.

MaxToreador, I have to assume you haven't been fighting an opponent with recon or aerial helixes. They are available and they can outflank you.

Yeah, I haven't played FSA, but it does appear that Din are a long range force in that game in a way they just aren't in planetfall. Long range elements that don't lose effectiveness up close to elements that aren't effective at long or short range ... not the same thing. In fact the only similarity between the naval force and the ground force is the reliance on armour instead of shields. Which is not something I have any reservations about.

Maybe in bigger games the Kratos will be a powerful flanking element but while the single core helix is making up most of the army they will have to be deployed rather centrally. So it may well prove to be more effective when the full orbats are ready but at the moment it is extremely meh.

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Actually the Dindrenzi Navy in FSA work almost EXACTLY the same as their Planetfall Marines. Fore fixed firepower, decently high armour, and no shields. Functional at long range, better closer, devastating in the butter zone (rangeband 2), then the close combat dogfight ensues... in which they become very lack luster. It's even been commented that our Planetfall force is the ONLY one with 4 rangebands, a Dindrenzi staple from FSA. The exception being the Gunship and Sgian (which BTW I designed.) The Gunship has yet to get a Planetfall equivalent, but what it would likely be is a HARD hitting close combat medium squadron with functional CQB AKA our Assault Helix.) The Sgian? Our Nyx are their ground equivalent without a doubt in my mind. Sgians were designed to suddenly be in your face without warning to tie up enemies while the heavier elements gained optimal position, the Nyx have a bonus in that they're objective claimers too.

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Yes, high DR does scale better against large hits than shields do.

Unless I'm very much mistaken FSA din have a lot of 48" weaponry (torpedoes as well as railguns) so aren't outranged by anyone are not particularly fast or particularly manoverable. And follow the doctrine "destroy the enemy before they get into range to fire their first shot" or something like that. Doesn't sound much like their ground forces to me.

Edit: " destroying the enemy before they can fire their first shot - the enduring mantra of the Dindrenzi Navy"

The gunship happens to be one of my favourite models from the din FSA range.

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I heard Derek or Neil mention on a Podcast somewhere that ground forces were very deliberately given different play styles to their space borne counterparts so that players could enjoy different gaming experiences between Armada and Planetfall...essentially so players who had a Dindrenzi Armada Fleet wouldn't be just playing the same game and same tactics with a Dindrenzi Planetfall Force.

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Unless I'm very much mistaken FSA din have a lot of 48" weaponry (torpedoes as well as railguns) so aren't outranged by anyone are not particularly fast or particularly manoverable. And follow the doctrine "destroy the enemy before they get into range to fire their first shot" or something like that. Doesn't sound much like their ground forces to me.

They do have alot of guns CAPABLE of shooting longer distances, but it's not the range they work at. Ex. The main battleship for the Dindrenzi only fires 3AD from their railgun at maximum range which is equal to a SINGLE frigate(PF equivalent would be a single light tank) at it's worst range. Even the main guns of the Dreadnought when linked fire 9AD, which is nothing to laugh at... till you realize those same guns drop a whopping 27AD(highest in FSA) in rangeband 2 (12-24in) when linked with their escorts. Rangeband 1 it drops back to 22AD, still very respectable but try GETTING that shot. The two big catches here are Fore Fixed and Gunracks. Fore fixed for a quick primer, is like a fore weapon in PF... but narrower. Ever seen the 'main battleship/robot' in an anime fire the massive beam gun that's as wide as the firing vessel? That is fore fixed in a nutshell, it's not a 90 degree arc... it's a 40mm(more on the Deadnought) wide line straight forward. Considering the Dreadnought and Battleship can each only make ONE 90 turn in a WIDE arc every action it's hard when you get in close it's nigh impossible to get that main gun on ANYTHING. Which brings us to the bain that is gunracks, Port/Starboard guns (which only we and two minor races use) that are weak and can only shoot to one of the two directions... basically they're anti-light ship guns that really don't even work for that. Essentially Our larger ships get into a death spiral at what relatively would be CQB range in PF. The whole Dindrenzi tactic in FSA is to full steam ahead guns blazing at the enemy till EXACTLY 24" then pull retro rockets to minimum speed and hope you can pull 2 good shots to destroy the target before knife/dog fighting range(CQB) where the enemy's Port/Starboards will eat us alive and STILL get to shoot the opposing side at another ship. Oh, torpedoes BTW... everyone uses 12" range bands and the vast majority max at 48", and we're par in that area. :unsure:

 

To sum it up, look at our (PF Din) EF shooting like the FSA's range band 2. You want to dance the edge for effect but not get in too close to get into CQB (FSA's RB1 & Dogfight spiral) where our vehicles... well, suck. :(

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I believe that was Neil... if it is the same podcast that I'm thinking of. I don't recall a reason given for changing playstyles so it May be a different one. There was talk about getting Derek on so that may have happened without me hearing about it.

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Max, That just isn't true.

The gunship that you claim to have designed has 4 dice at maximum range and another 5 from torps.

The battleships have 7 or 8 from railguns and 6 or 7 from torps.

The dread does indeed have 9 dice linked at maximum range but only 21 at 24". (And another 10 from torps)

Yes, other races do have some long range firepower from torps, but don't have enough of them to counter Din long range firepower. The simple fact is that Din are the most effective long range fleet. If they continue to be the most effective fleet up to about 20" away then... Yeah I can see why some people might feel that they are a bit good.

That really doesn't mirror with the ground forces at all though.

The whole argument for the Kratos being worth while is that it sacrifices firepower for manouverability. Not something that Din naval forces are known for. So claiming that is suffers the same problems that were (unreservedly) levelled at the Din fleet is just wrong to the point of irrelevance.

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Bearing in mind we haven't seen all the Dindrenzi and RSN Helixes yet...I'm still getting the feeling that with a heavy amount of Sky Drop CQB orientated units (Nyx, Leviathans, Battle Robots (both Dindrenzi and RSN)), that a main game tactic of the Dindrenzi will be to time your Sky Drop CBQ elements with that of your Armoured Kinetic elements to both arrive at the same time in CQB and ER respectively (difficult when you are relying on the accuracy of a Sky Drop Deviation roll and the placement of Sky Drop Markers), so that they can overload their enemies with CQB and Kinetic Weapons Fire...so essentially a close range attacking play style focused on a specific (high value or tough?) part of the enemies forces on the table and once the job is done there, spread and mop up the left overs/capture objectives.

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Bearing in mind we haven't seen all the Dindrenzi and RSN Helixes yet...I'm still getting the feeling that with a heavy amount of Sky Drop CQB orientated units (Nyx, Leviathans, Battle Robots (both Dindrenzi and RSN)), that a main game tactic of the Dindrenzi will be to time your Sky Drop CBQ elements with that of your Armoured Kinetic elements to both arrive at the same time in CQB and ER respectively (difficult when you are relying on the accuracy of a Sky Drop Deviation roll and the placement of Sky Drop Markers), so that they can overload their enemies with CQB and Kinetic Weapons Fire...so essentially a close range attacking play style focused on a specific (high value or tough?) part of the enemies forces on the table and once the job is done there, spread and mop up the left overs/capture objectives.

Which isn't far different to how I use Kratos now. They hide (if they can find something big enough to hide behind) and only move in when the infantry have dropped in to basically mop up. Of course that whole strategy falls apart if your drops don't come in near your targets or hit impassable terrain and just die without doing anything.

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I designed the Sgian not the gunship. My stat sheets show 3ad in RB4, but they do have the range lengths wrong so it may be a typo. 7AD is still mediocre at best. You are correct about maneuverability differences however for the navy that's the reason their "CQB" is horrible, which converts over to the actually CQB state on the ground.

Not being an FSA player something I don't think you realize is that the tactics of the space fleets won't work the way you think they do. Dropping a 6/10 3sh 5pd 8hp Terran Battleship with anything less than 12ad from a primary weapon is downright praying for 6's, don't start me on the dread. In PF one turn dropping a Terran heavy is what like 19ish successes before shields? That battleship its minimum 40, it'd be effectively DR 10/10/10/10 in PF. Those torpedo you keep mentioning? PD is "anti-torpedo shields" so shield 5 effectively. In short, you MUST find your way into RB2 or die from outnumbering swarms of lights or 15-20ad Cyber/Bio/ART blasts, staying back in RB3-4 is death. Base tactics of the navy and ground are incredibly similar.

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My apologies. The way you wrote your previous post could easily be mistaken for claiming the credit on booth.

I still don't think they are comparable in strategies. The fleet works on outgunning the enemy while the ground work by outmanouvering the enemy. The fleet wants to be at a longer range than most other fleets (what range do other fleets become effective at?.. baring in mind that you have just discounted their primary long range weapons). Ground forces are for the most part mid range or close assault.

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The fleet works on outgunning the enemy while the ground work by outmaneuvering the enemy.

In a weird way, both fleets do both; you'll have to bear with me on this one. Armada, tactically speaking, borrows alot from 1600-1700's naval warfare. Yes they didn't really have torps, cyber warfare, or SRS (FIghters/Bombers.) The key aspects of the game for most fleets; maneuvering in wide arcs, rapid range degradation, and broadside batteries hold true. Factoring in raw numbers and only MARs that effect firing ranges and arcs the vast majority of models in FSA favor port/starboard primary weapons in some fashion. DIndrenzi are an oddball, they contain the majority of the very powerful fore facing cannons in the universe with severely lacking port/starboard weapons and a solar system wide turning radius as compensation. This gives them an odd maneuvering bonus early on in that they don't maneuver, at all. All our navy commander's tactical prowess is in initial deployment and late battle, in the middle is hammer down guns blazing hoping to destroy/cripple the enemy before the knife fight. Our enemies however have to move forward taking potshots with their mediocre fore weapons and dodging our cannons until they can either pull hard port/starboard for a broadside or weave between two squadrons laying waste with a double broadside. I actually had a Sorylian player turn all his ships to port and cut engines on me first turn, it was a beat down slightly in my favor until I hit ~24". He then kicked into gear and moved into position between my squadrons to drop double broadsides and cripple or destroy nearly everything I had.

The fleet wants to be at a longer range than most other fleets (what range do other fleets become effective at?.. baring in mind that you have just discounted their primary long range weapons).

Generally all the fleets like range band 2 (EF equiv in Planetfall.) There are odd exceptions, like the Terran's torps which get more powerful at range. I know I said torps suck due to PD, but that was our larges. The Terran Pilgrims (a small squadron) fling 10 terrain ignoring dice at 36"-48". Their medium brother's, do 12AD at that range. Their Primary weapons however still scale up the closer you get up until RB2. Honestly there is no true "long range fleet" in FSA in my opinion, Dindrenzi just got tagged as that because they can fire primaries at 48", tend to do a little damage at those ranges(usually to smalls/mediums), and drop their full blasts a turn earlier than every other fleet because they don't have to maneuver 45-90 degrees into firing arcs. Their primary tactic in both games is still mid-range destruction.

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The main problem with the Kratos that she is in the Core Helix, and you must use this helix every time when design your army. So the recon and assault helixes for the Dinrenzi army will be good, but you still forced to take the meh Kratos in every Din army.

 

Other cole helixes (terran for example) is more efficient (2 Vidar, AA tanks or shiled tanks, etc) to build on.

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So I've had a few games with the Dindrenzi now and whilst the Kratos doesn't make people go "how many AD?!" Like the first time the Tyr gets in EF, it's manoeuvrability and range is making me start to like it A LOT more than the Terran counterpart.

The best way I found to use the Kratos is to support it with the Latos Light tanks. These guys are unreal and can get rear and flank shots on the units focused on the heavy.

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I agree Dan. I have been focusing my list around the 2 kratos and 2x 5 leto now. They work perfectly in tandum together.

I've found that if deployed correctly the kratos can cripple the enemy heavies on the first turn and the leto can either finish them off or provide protection on the flanks if needed. 

 

Silver, I don't think it's a problem that you have to take the Kratos as a choice. Embrace it. Know your weaknesses. Exploit your strengths. Adding a Circle or 2 is a great way to beef it up: use them as a screen to soak up damage (place them in front to be removed first basically gaining DR8+7) also use the target lock to get placed shots. (As i read it you only need 4 successes on 10 dice if you have 2 circles)

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Ah. Slight oversight there. But the premise is still valid: the circle can be used to beef up the Kratos just like other races support tanks can for their meds/heavys...

 

Yeah, absolutely...getting to move and hit on a 3+ instead of a 4+ is a very nice little bonus...and as you said earlier, it can also serve as a nice little piece of ablative armour for the Squadron :)

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I've been using the Circe on my Mediums but will try one on a Kratos Squadron once my other Helix is painted so I can full bore. Once you get the Circe in range, getting 12 Shots hitting on 3+ is quite nasty to be honest. I nearly killed a Sorylian Heavy between a Kratos and Medium Squadron in one turn from 24" away. Sky dropped some Nyx to finish it off ;-)

 

Zeph - brutal combo there mate. That would be hard to counter. Especially if you used your speed to fake a flank attack and redirect to an unsupported unit. Going Flat Out for a turn or two can swing things massively, especially against slow opponents (i.e NOT Aquans...they'll just reposition as quick!).

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