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Silverbeast

Our heavy tank

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10AD vs 7+6+6 with SH4 is a 32% chance of getting a damage point, 3% of getting a second.

 

8AD kinetic is 20% of one, 1% of two

 

Thanks for the mathematics mate. Kinetic is a nice little bonus, but it doesn't seem to be overly worth the danger of unnecessarily exposing yourself to unwanted enemy firepower. If 10AD sans Kinetic is so significantly better than 8AD with Kinetic, it seems that  hanging at mid range would be better against some factions, to avoid their nastiest firepower, and only moving in for a 14AD Kinetic coup de grace...

 

...and yeah I agree Commander Drakere, I will be using a Squadron of 2 whenever possible. It's nice to know what a single one can do though, too, because sometimes you might need to spend points elsewhere and can only afford to deploy a single...or if you do deploy a pair and one is destroyed, it's nice to know how the survivor will still be able to perform on the battlefield.

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I think the survivor would (usually) be best employed hiding to avoid losing 9 tv and disrupting the rest of your core helix.

 

Agreed, I think at that point I'd move and keep the survivor away from any major threats and limit them to a supporting role or hunting down stragglers for TV etc...and yeah, those Disorder Tests for the loss of a Command Element can be fairly nasty, especially so if your dice have a turn for the worse right then and there :)

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Sure, but now ORBATs are here I really don't plan on playing smaller points limit games which you would probably only take such minimal restrictions.. x) i'm looking much more to about 3,000-4,000pt marker for an average game. Mostly i'm trying to say I guess it's useful to know but I think unless you're expecting to lose 1 Kratos before they engage, most people will be playing larger point games where you'd take 2 and it would be more useful to know than knowing a single Kratos. :)

 

And good to hear..! Well any unit that attracts a lot of aggro will die fast I think.. xD but hey, look at brightside! If they're trying hard to kill Kratos, as you said not shooting anything else! And if they're not trying hard to kill it, longer it will live to deliver more paaaaaaaaain!

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Anyway, chances of getting 1/2/3 DR at 20AD, no kinetic: 89%/50%/14%

16AD with kinetic: 78%/28%/4%

 

Thanks again for the mathematics mate, very interested and much appreciated. I think if you can manage to stay mid range, you can hope to get some decent damage on even some of the larger and well shielded enemy units in the game. If you can manage to set up a Hit and Run move to stay out of a nasty rebuke, and then pop back out on your next activation for a second bite of the pie, it could be fairly devastating to your chosen target.

 

I'm assuming this is based on "Regular" shots (4+ to hit). If you Remain Stationary and gain "Placed" shots (3+ to hit), I reckon your chances for that 3rd damage point would jump a bit too...or better yet, with an attached Circe (which can also Hit and Run) designating for Target Lock (gaining "Placed" shots), you could get in a solid mid range strike and duck behind cover, then next activation move in to ER, designate, and then unload a Kinetic Coup de Grace...a fair bit of gaming experience needed with the units to pull that off though, and I guess only if your opponent didn't see the set-up coming.

 

 

Kinetic in EF stops runaway successes with shields, but doesn't actually affect the statistics much - primarily because runaway events are statistically unlikely. Also, if you get 3 successes with 4 shields, you've already stripped out 6 hits, so reduced the likelihood of damage significantly already, the exploding step thereafter would give you a 50% chance of a further exploding step.

 

So whilst the "feel" of the effect is great, it's more psychological on the opponent that statistically reliable (and yes, we are talking of statistics not experience - but that's how games are built!). In practice it's almost always better to roll more dice!

 

 

I wonder why the Kinetic effect was kept to ER only, and not LR. I suppose to encourage players to close with the enemy instead of sitting back sniping from a distance.

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Most likely, it has it's place though at least, put a single point of damage on a heavy in the run up to engagement and i'm pretty confident the 28AD with Kinetic MAR will coup de grace whatever is left of it as you said. Reading your report though Alex i'm surprised the Sorylians heavies got 2 points of damage on your Kratos in opening volley..! Tough DR and -1 to hit from Hover I didn't think they'd break 2 levels..! Though I do suppose if the big lizard stood still +1 to hit would counter that... x_x

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So to semi-revive this dead thread given how long ago it was posted, it seems the FAQ has answered this question and the Dindrenzi have gotten a little bit of a boost, being allowed to link their Skorpios and Onagers together even if the Skorpio is at LR and the Onager is at ER, counting the attack as LR for purpose of MARs and other rules, but get to use the Onager's ER value if it is within ER of it!

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Neither of our heavy tanks really fill me with the sense of awe that the size of weapons they carry suggests they should. I'd quite happily drop the secondary weapons if it meant we could have railguns stats that matched the models. Combined with a lacklustre MAR and a cqb that isn't high enough to take advantage of the punishing cqb rule... yeah, "a bit meh" would about describe my feelings towards them.

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Just for the record...my Vidar got one shot killed by Dindrenzi recon tanks from behind. The Hit and Run and Hover rule is insanely awesome. The Kratos may not put out a huge amount of damage but it can dance around most heavies. Plus this game is not a 1 vs 1 slug fest. It's about baiting and manoeuvring to better arcs. Dindrenzi will find it very easy to get in rear and side arcs.

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I actually find that a pair of Kratos don't do a hell of a lot of 'dancing' (individually they may be able to pull off the occasional nifty move but a pair of them take up too much space). Their movement is only twice the length of their base and they are too big to hide behind anything but the largest buildings. Yeah, they are more manouverable than most heavies but they will still have a hard time getting out of arc... especially against turrets.

Yes, Dindrenzi have some very good units that you shouldn't let get into your rear arc. So does every other race. The manouverability difference between one recon unit and another isn't so great that this is something that only Din can do... and you are unlikely to get a chance to pull something like that off with a heavy. It would have to be virtually next to your opponent's heavy before moving in order to get behind it. And this discussion is about the heavy... not about how deadly Letos are. If you wish to discuss overall strategy that is another matter for another discussion. Suffice to say that Din have their fare share of disadvantages and advantages.

I'm not saying that the lack of lumbering isn't an advantage. Clearly it is. In the same way that fixed weapon arcs are a disadvantage. Or having to get within 12" before getting any benefit at all from your weapon MAR is a disadvantage. The closest thing to compare the Kratos to is the Sedna which simply outclasses it. (For the same point cost)

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I'm not saying that the lack of lumbering isn't an advantage. Clearly it is. In the same way that fixed weapon arcs are a disadvantage. Or having to get within 12" before getting any benefit at all from your weapon MAR is a disadvantage. The closest thing to compare the Kratos to is the Sedna which simply outclasses it. (For the same point cost)

Eh I'm 50/50 on the Sedna 'outclassing it.' Same points, TV, Quality, and Speed. Kratos has 2 more AD at 12" or less, same up till 24", but 4 less AD from 24"-36". Yes the Sedna has 4 shields, which will average to and effective ~3DR boost which is 1 more than the Kratos has over it before shields. Now the MARs on the guns? Kratos has a slight edge. The Pinpoint MAR requires you to first roll enough damage a target, get past the target's shields, then they have to actually have a second DR range(so it's wasted on lights) for a 30% chance to work. Kinetic's causing blue shield dice reduces the effectiveness of the targets shields by ~15% which isn't much, but seeing as the majority of races USE shields it is a benefit you'll see have effect more often. The only "trump cards" the Sedna brings is it's Racial Trait(situational just like Pinpoint) and Transport(8)... one of which debating would involve actually looking at the Din vs Fish infantry and transports, the Din have no use for using their main tank as a transport. B)

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Kinetic only takes effect up to 12" and even then only takes effect when enemy shields are already being effective (on a roll of a 6 so already scoring 2 successes). So pinpoint doesn't do anything to light targets... very few light targets have shields so the same is true of kinetic. Pinpoint only takes effect on a d6 roll of a 6... the same is true of kinetic (only that 6 already counts as two successes on the shield roll so they are already being effective in order for kinetic to do anything at all). Kinetic isn't really worth much against any target with less than 3 shields (where it reduces average hits from 2.4 to 2... wow). It certainly isn't better than pinpoint 2.

Much like the the sedna the Kratos doesn't want to get that close to the enemy (where if can easily be outclassed and doesn't benefit from hover... not to mention that its short range firepower isn't exactly off the scale) and long range firepower is worth more per dice than short range firepower. The din racial rule is wasted on the Kratos.

So... the sedna has more survivability, better gun and transport capacity. And a racial rule that actually does something vaguely useful for it. All for 0 points.

The din actually are in need of transport, dropping pods is not the most ideal method of deployment.

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OK, didn't have the book infront of me at the time. Knew Kinetic did heavy dice, didn't realize it was only at EF. My bad there. Still doesn't change my opinion though. Guns are still equal considering their role. Aquan racial trait was meh before they nurfed it so the Din's trait's effect on the Kratos is moot. Transport on a long range tank is pointless, especially in this comparison as we have to compare to Dindrenzi skydropping Nyx(we are SERIOUSLY going to have to agree to disagree on that subject so don't even comment on it.) Sedna does have a slight edge on survivability but it is roll dependant and is easily negated or weakened. Pretty much every other stat is identical. The two are pretty even, neither truely outclasses the other.

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The problem with the Sedna is that the 2-strong squadron pulls out 20AD at 36inches compared to the 12 of the Kratos. Period. if the AD were equal or something like 20 to 16, then yes they will be equal more or less.

 

for how things are now, I think the real hard hitters will be Eris squadrons with a circe.

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It's not a Sedna, it's designed quite blatantly to be a heavy that wants to get into closer range from fact it hits harder the closer it gets and the Kinetic MAR. I think Dindrenzi players kinda need to accept that, your Heavy isn't going to be a Sedna but with a railgun instead of lasers, you're not a backfield camper army. Also, if you're trying to play it that way might be why some of your Kratos's are performing subpar...

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The problem with the Sedna is that the 2-strong squadron pulls out 20AD at 36inches compared to the 12 of the Kratos. Period. if the AD were equal or something like 20 to 16, then yes they will be equal more or less.

If that's how you're looking at it you're playing the wrong force, as you're using the Kratos wrong.

It's not a Sedna, it's designed quite blatantly to be a heavy that wants to get into closer range from fact it hits harder the closer it gets and the Kinetic MAR. I think Dindrenzi players kinda need to accept that, your Heavy isn't going to be a Sedna but with a railgun instead of lasers, you're not a backfield camper army. Also, if you're trying to play it that way might be why some of your Kratos's are performing subpar...

THIS IS A DINDRENZI TACTITIAN!...Wait he plays Terrans... ****.
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Dindrenzi are meant to be a hit and run army. You can't hit and run at 12 inches. You can hit and die. Which is mostly what Nyx do. Why the blazes would a hit and run force want to put their core command element that close to the enemy?

Look at the damage output of other heavies. Only the sorylians and Aquans have worse short range firepower and they both carry infantry for short range defence. Only the Relthoza land Aquans heavies have worse cqb (with the Aquans being equal until facials are taken one to account). So, no. The Kratos isn't good at short range. It isn't good at long range.

And the idea that hardened shell is worthless is, frankly, bizarre. Even with the (imho, odd) ruling in the FAQ it is still equivalent to an automatic success on a shield roll from a flank attack or 2 from the rear.

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Sorry, since when do you measure Short range firepower by CQB firepower? I was not aware if you wished to be good short range fire fights you also had to go up and slap them in the face. The Kratos' short range firepower is decent, it's not amazing (until you get to 12" mark), but it is far more manuverable than anything else that wants to be at short range. I mean good God my Vidar is a close range fighter king, but the bugger moves like a tank with a busted tread and has to lumber it's way around buildings, so dot he Relthoza. There is something to be said for the ability to outright ignore obstacles that block others, it makes you a fighter that can eliminate what could be considered cover/flank guards against other armies. Also, I wasn't aware a Kratos was as fragile as a Nyx.... or was a member of the highest DR brackets in the game. It's not a runner, it's a hammer that will smash you despite you're hiding behind a wall because it will just go through the wall etc. But this is going circular, you'll either figure how to use it best, or you'll continue to undervalue it and sell it short by your own pessimism as you're looking at what you want it to do rather than what it can do.

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