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Are torpedoes in DW dumb?

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Hi, all.

 

Just wondering, as a KoB player, we seem to focus heavily on torpedoes, which I find odd, as historically torpedoes were pretty much the most useless type of ordnance you could use for naval combat.

 

I haven't got my books on me, but for example, hundreds and hundreds of torpedoes were used at the Battle of Jutland, the ranges these were used at seemed to be around 5,000-7,000 yards!  :blink:

 

So, a dumb torpedo has to travel across 5,000 yards of North Sea, hugging the surface at the correct depth so that if the torpedo reaches a moving ship it actually hits it and doesn't pass undernether it, all the while it is being beaten off of course by ships' wakes and current, and general sea shenanigans. And even after the hundreds and hundreds of torpedoes only something silly, perhaps about 10 actually hit anything.

 

Even in the Second World War the torpedoes of they US Navy didn't explode until the sorted out the problem.

 

So, in DW, are we shooting dumb torpedoes at each other? If so, it doesn't fill me with hope. Or, as we're in a world where there's time generators and teleporters and drones,perhaps we've actually put some technology into these torpedoes, perhaps they're a bit modern with a rudimentary tracking system or something.

 

Thoughts? 

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Well, maybe you primitives are, but the CoA clearly use drone-guided torps.

 

At least, that's the only explanation I can think of for how they don't degrade with range and have a 90 degree fire arc.

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Well, historical torpedoes were not designed to be a long range weapon, thus their representation in DW is not very correct.

They were primarly a close-range weapon aimed at slow moving or anchored targets, that achieved a remarkable fame damaging and sinking battleship. They've never been a reliable system, but their advantage has been the cost-effectiveness: in an age where the race for armaments prized huge costly ship, a speedboat armed with torpedoes still had a the distinct possibility to cripple and maybe even sink a dozen thousand tons cruiser.

 

The remark to move to DW mechanic is that the role of the torpedoes is historically wrong (long range weapon VS close target): but, as usual, DW universe is not meant to be historically accurate, so I would not think that the torpedoes are "dumb". The answer is, as usual, Sturginium.

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I suspect most of the torps in DW are dumb or at least have only rudimentary systems. The KoB torps certainly must have a safety feature with a huge minimum safe distance for arming. How else do you explain their absence in RB1? In fact I thought a rather neat KoB special commodore ability would be something like;

Safeties Off!

Activate at beginning of turn, all KoB ships may fire their torps at RB1 at the same strength as their RB2 AD. However each time a ship does this it must roll 1d6. On a roll of a 1 the attack is rolled against the firing ship as the torpedoes detonate too close to the ship. The firing ship does not use defensive CC against this attack.

 

The CoA are of course an exception, as Sebenko says. Our torps do not deviate in their course (same AD at all ranges) and have enough drone control to even avoid enemy defensive systems (as evidenced by the faster torpedo MAR... yes, this could just mean the torps are fast and other ships cannot respond in time, but I prefer to imagine my torpedoes weaving around the defensive CC)

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The CoA are of course an exception, as Sebenko says. Our torps do not deviate in their course (same AD at all ranges) and have enough drone control to even avoid enemy defensive systems (as evidenced by the faster torpedo MAR... yes, this could just mean the torps are fast and other ships cannot respond in time, but I prefer to imagine my torpedoes weaving around the defensive CC)

 

I suspect that CoA torps dive deeper and only surface nearer the target. Not deep enough to avoid other ships, but enough to 'sneak up' on the target.

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Historically in WW2, I believe surface launched torpedos had a hit rate under 3% and that include the much touted Japanese Long Lance.

 

That of course matters not a whit in DW.

 

Torpedos, as with rockets, are tertiary and do not degrade with damage. Hits can be reduced by concussion charge (cc) but generally the cc ratings are lower than aa used on rockets.

 

They are one more tool in your KOB bag and coupled with a target painter or launched while submerged, give you some alternate ways to deliver pain to your opponent.

 

Around Turns 3 or 4 when everyones weapons are down a notch or two from damage, full strength torpedo salvos can be decisive.

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Historically in WW2, I believe surface launched torpedos had a hit rate under 3% and that include the much touted Japanese Long Lance.

 

That of course matters not a whit in DW.

 

Torpedos, as with rockets, are tertiary and do not degrade with damage. Hits can be reduced by concussion charge (cc) but generally the cc ratings are lower than aa used on rockets.

 

They are one more tool in your KOB bag and coupled with a target painter or launched while submerged, give you some alternate ways to deliver pain to your opponent.

 

Around Turns 3 or 4 when everyones weapons are down a notch or two from damage, full strength torpedo salvos can be decisive.

 

One of the strengths of torpedoes in DW is, that CC values do go down with damage.

 

If you manage to reduce the CC of the larger enemy ships with a few hits, your torpedoes suddenly become much more effective.

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This got me thinking about RL torpedo accuracy and so I went on google...

This page has a lot of nice info but the best is a table from a 1942-1944 american study. It says that of 408 torpedoes fired 151 exploded on target and 65 ships were sunk. So that's about 6 torpedoes fired for each ship sunk which sounds pretty impressive to me.

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Submarine torpedos are much more accurate than surface launched, in large part due to generally due to closer range, much more straight forward triginometry and not getting shot at while you are trying to hit the other guy.

 

There is a book out there, I think, on Naval Institute Press, by Captain Wayne Hughes on Fleet Tactics, Theory and Practice that has good coverage starting on Page 117 and I believe has a reference to a graduate paper on the Solomons. The 3% overall surface hit rate covers the entire war including the Java Sea where the IJN achieved about a 6-7% hit rate. In the Solomans where the IJN pratice of an initial, large, undetected fisrt strike yielded about a 2% rate and once everybody knew there were fish in the water and manouvered wildly, it dropped to about .06%. What does that mean for DW?

 

Ideally sub launched torpedos should be much more accurate than surface launched. Give subs firing from deep or submerged a +1 to hit. Whether that would be a balance problem for KOB or Black Wolf is an issue for playtesting.

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What does that mean for DW?

Absolutely nothing, as the torps in DW are clearly not meant as accurate representation of RL torps ,but merely a game mechanic to add reliable Turn 3+ damage method. It makes little sense, much like rockets being unable to perform indirect fire, which was literally the first use of modern rocketry.

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Absolutely nothing, as the torps in DW are clearly not meant as accurate representation of RL torps ,but merely a game mechanic to add reliable Turn 3+ damage method. It makes little sense, much like rockets being unable to perform indirect fire, which was literally the first use of modern rocketry.

 

This is something that honestly bothers me a ton in this game. Nearly every model with rockets has them modelled on an incline, set up as if they were going to be fired in a massive, arcing shot. But apparently they fly in a straight line at water level? Do the rockets fly up, then immediately dive back down and go straight?

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The strength of the torpedo was that it bypassed the armor or more precisely the shape of the explosion rendered the armor of a ship useless causing massive flooding. Even a large battleship in WWII could be crippled by a single torpedo hit, despite torpedo protections, while it would take many hits by heavy gunfire to do the same. Further while Mckintry may be correct about the 3% hit rate of WWII torpedoes it was still better then the ~1.5% hit rate of naval artillery of the same period.

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The strength of the torpedo was that it bypassed the armor or more precisely the shape of the explosion rendered the armor of a ship useless causing massive flooding. Even a large battleship in WWII could be crippled by a single torpedo hit, despite torpedo protections, while it would take many hits by heavy gunfire to do the same. Further while Mckintry may be correct about the 3% hit rate of WWII torpedoes it was still better then the ~1.5% hit rate of naval artillery of the same period.

 

You are definitely right about torpedoes bypassing armour for WW1 battleships. WW2 battleships had very advanced torpedo defences and could survive several hits.

 

A point about the hit percentages - a ship would carry several hundred rounds for its main guns, and several torpedoes.

 

As others have said, though, DW torpedoes are not real torpedoes - they are long ranged, probably homing in some way, and relatively fast to reload.

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I assume that as all Torps are sturgnium powered they would have an increased range?

Let us not dwell on this too much, torps are the best defence against subs and I dont want them to get nerfed!!!

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Hi, all.

 

Just wondering, as a KoB player, we seem to focus heavily on torpedoes, which I find odd, as historically torpedoes were pretty much the most useless type of ordnance you could use for naval combat.

 

I haven't got my books on me, but for example, hundreds and hundreds of torpedoes were used at the Battle of Jutland, the ranges these were used at seemed to be around 5,000-7,000 yards!  :blink:

 

So, a dumb torpedo has to travel across 5,000 yards of North Sea, hugging the surface at the correct depth so that if the torpedo reaches a moving ship it actually hits it and doesn't pass undernether it, all the while it is being beaten off of course by ships' wakes and current, and general sea shenanigans. And even after the hundreds and hundreds of torpedoes only something silly, perhaps about 10 actually hit anything.

 

Even in the Second World War the torpedoes of they US Navy didn't explode until the sorted out the problem.

 

So, in DW, are we shooting dumb torpedoes at each other? If so, it doesn't fill me with hope. Or, as we're in a world where there's time generators and teleporters and drones,perhaps we've actually put some technology into these torpedoes, perhaps they're a bit modern with a rudimentary tracking system or something.

 

Thoughts? 

 

They can't be 100% dumb because they can hit surface skimmers. The fact that they leap out of the water to hit theses targets suggest some sort guidance system.

 

Does anyone else shout " Fly my pretties, fly" when firing at surface skimmers?  :lol: 

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They can't be 100% dumb because they can hit surface skimmers. The fact that they leap out of the water to hit theses targets suggest some sort guidance system.

 

Does anyone else shout " Fly my pretties, fly" when firing at surface skimmers?  :lol:

 

Or perhaps they explode directly underneath the skimmer?

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The Italian ships have very pronounced torpedo bulges on their sides, which was (I think) a ww2 defence system. Plus the Italians have faster torps. So in terms of Torp tech I suspect the Italians are on top with the coa drone torps.

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Interesting points of views, peeps.

 

One thing that's always puzzled me a bit was, why have Spartan made the KoB a torpedo fleet? I would've thought it would make more sense to make them a gunnery fleet, I'd much prefer it if the torpedo tubes were replaced by a tertiary gunnery system. 

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They are a Gunnery (Redoubtable Primary Weapons and Commodore Docterine) and Torpedo (Almost all vessel have Torpedos) Fleet. They are good at both.

 

And the drone torpedoes is a good and logical explanation for the CoA Torps. Also Surface Skimmers uses the GNE tech, which projects energy below them (See the cover of the 1.1 RoF fleet guide, Water was pushed aside under skimmers) so when a torpedo makes contact with that 'hard" energy it will detenate due to the impact.

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Another thing, I assume that with all the fore-mounted torpedoes tubes that KoB vessels sport, I assume they cannot use these while the ships are moving forward, it would be a tad embarrassing to shot your torpedoes and then run-over them and sink yourself.

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Another thing, I assume that with all the fore-mounted torpedoes tubes that KoB vessels sport, I assume they cannot use these while the ships are moving forward, it would be a tad embarrassing to shot your torpedoes and then run-over them and sink yourself.

That makes no since. The torpedoes are much faster then the ships so it would be impossible to run over them. That's like a jet hitting it's own missiles or bullets the laws of physics mean that if you fire a projectile from a moving object in the direction of the objects movement the projectile will have a velocity of the projectile + the velocity of the object that fired it thus the firing object cannot collide with the fired object.

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