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MssrKittens

Pathogen Questions

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Hello folks, seems like my last thread on the subject did not withstand the test of time.  The following questions got the following answers, if I recall correctly.  I have some more questions, though, so I'm putting this back up.

 

Old Questions:

 

Can Pathogen fleets take normal SRS tokens?  No.  

 

Can Pathogen fleets take Captured vessels during fleet creation?  Yes.

 

New Questions:

 

Do Captured vessels count against Tier maxima, or do they exist outside of it?  Given that their designations (listed as "Captured ") aren't in the Tier categories for Fleet creation, I'm given to believe that don't count.

 

What happens when I target two individual Caputured Large vessels with the Regroup TAC Card?  For that matter, say I'm having a spectacularly fortunate game, and the two Capture Larges I've taken at fleet creation (whether they counted as two of my Tier 1 choices or not is irrelevant here) have both captured another Large vessel; clearly within their potential squadron limit.  Can I combine these two squadrons of two Captured Large in to a single squadron of four Captured Larges, since they still have room for one more?

 

Is there any way to load up SRS tokens on to Captured Large vessels, if one does not take them at fleet creation?  Do they come loaded?  Do they get SRS tokens if the Large which was captured had that number of SRS tokens, perhaps (I've captured a Large with 3 or more SRS tokens, so they convert along with the new ship)?

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Ya it says in the Pathogen specific rules that they can take captured ships, but they don't fill the minimum tier requirements. I don't see any reason for them not to count against the maximum values though.

You cannot use Regroup on a Tier 1.

A captured large has the same number of wings it had at the time of its capture, up to a maximum of three. So a large with one wing when captured gets one, two gets two wings, and three or more at time of capture gets three.

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So, your suspicion is that if I took a Battleship at 800, thereby filling my requirement for Tier one, and a Captured Large, I couldn't also take a Carrier, since the Captured Large is grabbing the other Tier one slot (and therefore couldn't also take another Captured Large)?  That's pretty harsh.  I hope that isn't accurate; if so, it pretty definitively precludes taking Captured ships at fleet creation, as the opportunity cost is so high.

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1) I believe that they don't count, which means that even at the start of the game you can use them to have ships in excess of the typical number at a given tier. However, this also means that you can't use them to meet minimum requirements - only the "full grown" Pathogen ships can do that.

 

2) Yes... based on the reading of the TAC, I don't see any reason why you can't. EDIT: except for the fact that it doesn't work on Tier 1s, of course... 

 

3) That's... a very good question. I think we'll need a Spartan to weigh in. From a strict interpretation of the text, I would say that they start with no SRS. A more liberal interpretation would be to go ahead and give them the wings - it's not like a three-wing token is going to be game-breaking. A compromise might be to give them a token equal to the captured profile's max Wings score or the value of any token embarked on the ship at the time it was captured whichever is smaller, to reflect the idea that the captured ship only has wings if there are space craft on board to be metabolized and converted.

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True, of course you could be correct also since they're not listed as any tier maybe they don't count towards the top limits. I cant really say I would be too happy if there is no limit to how many can be taken though...

The Infestation rules are pretty clear on wings though as I described above:

Captured Pathogen model in its size class, with current HP and FW the lower of either of the ships at time of capture, or the new Pathogen Class ship

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OK, missed that Regroup can't target Tier 1s.  So, another question.  Say my two squadrons of Chaga Cruisers (the fully grown Cruisers, that is) each have an odd game:  both of them have captured two enemy Larges, and then been shot down to one Cruiser.  So, I have two squadrons of one Chaga, and two Captured Larges.  Since these squadrons both started as Tier 2, can I target the squadrons with Regroup?  This puts me at a squadron of two Chaga, four Captured Large.  We're still inside the squadron maximum of 6, and it's still technically a Tier 2, yes?  

 

EDIT:

 

New question:

 

My squadron of Aureus Frigates (the fully grown Frigates) can be a squadron of up to 6, and have a maximum capture size of (8).  Does that mean that if I take four Stem Captured Smalls as Accompaniment, I can't capture and add any ships to the squadron until three of them are dead (bringing the squadron down to 7, so I can add back up to 8), or does this mean that I have a maximum of two captured ships I can add?

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OK, missed that Regroup can't target Tier 1s.  So, another question.  Say my two squadrons of Chaga Cruisers (the fully grown Cruisers, that is) each have an odd game:  both of them have captured two enemy Larges, and then been shot down to one Cruiser.  So, I have two squadrons of one Chaga, and two Captured Larges.  Since these squadrons both started as Tier 2, can I target the squadrons with Regroup?  This puts me at a squadron of two Chaga, four Captured Large.  We're still inside the squadron maximum of 6, and it's still technically a Tier 2, yes?  

 

No, the Regroup card says that the ships in the newly formed squadron must have the same name, even if your fleet list allows for mixed squadrons. So, even though the Aquan fleet list allows a squadron of cruisers to be led by a heavy cruiser, I can't recombine one heavy cruiser and three cruisers into a squadron.

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If you take 4 Stems as accompaniment, you also only have 4 Aureus.  You can't take 6 Aureus plus 4 Stems at creation, since that exceeds the max SQ of 8 (which still applies during fleet build, including accompaniments).  So as soon as you lose one you can capture another.

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So, if I take 6 Aureii, I can't take the maximum allotment of 4 Stems, only 2?  And I'd have to either wait to capture more, or split?  This seems odd; there are plenty of other squadrons (virtually every other Tier 1) in the game with a Squadron Size of 1, which can take Accompaniments without issue.  Why is Pathogen the only fleet in the game where Accompaniments count toward the Squadron Size maximum?

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Because no other fleet can actively ADD models to the squadron in-game. The more you add, the easier each consecutive boarding gets...so they put a hard-cap on it. You will notice you can NEVER have more than 8 total for the aureliuses, even if you capture some during game- the second you capture 9th model, you have to split.

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I'm not talking from a balance standpoint, I'm referring to the fact that the format is a little misleading.  Listing 4 potential Accompaniment models available to a unit which can expand to accommodate an extra 2 implies conflicting messages.  Had I not stared at the profile for a while, I don't think I would have caught the conflict, and posting this up here gets everyone else who had a similar curiosity the opportunity to see the question answered; I still think the ship's profile is a little misleading.

 

Still curious about list capacity for taking Captured ships at the start of the game, and what happens when one captures Carriers and the like (that is, does a Pathogen Captured Large "digest" their SRS)?

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Assuming the captured carrier has any SRS left (I do not believe they need to be embarked at the time of capture, just not destroyed), the new Captured ship (of the proper size) will have Wings equal to the lower of those the ship had left or the Wing rating of the ship.

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Great to hear, thanks!  That helps balance out the expense of Pathogen SRS, if they, too, can be picked up mid-game.  

 

A new question:  Say I nab a carrier that's been whittled down to 2 SRS tokens left.  If that token then kills another SRS token, can it grow up to 3, the Captured Large's limit (since it "was" originally a token of more than 2, its past life), or does it stay at 2, since that's the limit where it first became a Pathogen SRS token?

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Wierd, remembering squad composition is going to be super important, and due to coherancy effects it might be super important to split down squads as soon as possible... Alex, since you're answering a few questions, might I reitterate a couple and ask a couple new ones?

-Can Pathogen buy non-Pathogen wings?

-Your second post seems to imply that wings on a captured vessel become Pathogen wings, but can we get a definitive "yes" or "no" on that?

- How does purchasing squads of captured ships work in terms of building a list, considering they do not have traditional classes and there's no listing on their size classes in the Marauder fleet construction charts?

And then of course there's questions about Battle Log... I believe questions about Self Repair and the Battle Log have been asked and answered in the past, but what about squadrons literally growing? Which ships count for the "half strength" threshold? If a squad splits off its starting accompaniment with a newly capped ship, taking it below half its initial size, will my foe get Battle Log? How does the new squad interract with the Battle Log?

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Ok question, i have the old pathogen escorts...but there is no wording of escorts in the new stats... Or are they now the "captured smalls". And speaking of old models... Is the pathogen battleship the only mono-pegged battleship? Seems odd.

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So, it's sounding like no Battle Log interactions happen for when a newly-formed Squadron, created entirely out of ships captured mid-mission, get destroyed?  That use of the word "initial" implies that these ships, too, operate outside of the mechanics of the game.

 

Also, say I've got a squadron of Cruisers and Captured Cruisers at max capacity, and then I capture one more with them.  Since I have to split, I put all of my normal Cruisers in one Squadron, and all of my Captured-types into another. What happens to the activation game?  

 

A) Do both Squadrons count as having activated, because they all contain models which have activated?

B) Does the new Squadron count as not having activated, because it's newly formed (and thus is a new Squadron?)

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I would also say it doesn't seem to come up THAT often.  While the Pathogen are very proficient in capturing ships, they also die pretty quick.  It's actually quite rare to find yourself in a situation where you have to split a squadron (not saying it doesn't happen and that some clarity isn't needed, but don't let it stop you playing them--it probably won't come up :) ).

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Well, I think we heard that if a Squadron of Cruisers capture a Large, they have to immediately split, no?  Sure, Squadrons growing on their own might not happen much, but Larges don't fit in with Cruisers.  Since a fully maxed out Squadron of Cruisers can huck out a profane 24 AP, we should see more than a couple Larges captured by the Pathogen; they would immediately split, and then become a new Squadron (which has then counted as having activated).  So, if my opponent then turns around and blows away his newly-improved ship, it doesn't count for Battle Log on his part, but I gain Battle Log for having taken it out, no?

 

 

If they contain only captured models, yes. Otherwise it is a brand new squadron, and as such it's non-captured part counts as initial size.

 

This would imply that it's almost always best to split off ships Captured mid-mission, so that your opponent can't double-dip on Battle Log scoring.  Interesting.

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