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Maxlotter

RoF lacking units

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Dystopian Wars 2.0 bring new life to almost every unit in our ORBAT. Still there are some units that didn't see table very often. This thread is intended for discussion about such lacklusters and what could be done to improve them without been to overpower.

 

From my point of view on of such bad luck fellows is Ecuyer. Once a fearsome unit than emphasized RoF accent on anti air, it is now a mere shadow of it's former glory. Yes, it is a bit more durable now (thanks to 5 DR), a bit faster and has better firepower, but the loss of telescopic zoom AA made it just another cruiser which is pale in comparison to other more successful fellows like Toulon or Dieppe. And giving an attachment to it didn't breath new life to him due to the fact that it's much easy to kill him rather then it's bigger squad mate. And when attached Ecuyer dies it brings the possibility for a larger ship to loose the morale check and have all the troubles it takes.

In the end, I didn't want to say that it's a really bad ship. But I really can't find any reason to field it on the table.

Any thoughts or suggestions?

 

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Agreed. Good ship, but not needed

 

I would like to see it have attachment: Medium Naval. It is a support cruiser like the Dominion that cannot support units.

It is an excellent ship for the price. Against Arial heavy opponents such as the Eclipse it truly shines. Next to the CC spamming Dieppe it covers subs and aerials.

The main issue, I have with it is i don't feel the burning desire to field it. As you stated it is amazing to form a unit with a dreadnought but if the Ecuyer dies the dreadnought has to take a break test! The same Ack can be given to a large by attaching a unit of fighters.

 

Perhaps Giving it Ack at 12" (16" was broken as hell in the last addition) or giving it a support squadron of fighter (one per ship in the unit) that can launch to intercept. The Merchant Navy Vessals used to have single fighter slingshotted from their decks to protect from dive bombers, very RoF! 

 

LaS

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I can't see why AA cruiser should have SAS support squadron, but the ability to use them as attachment to our mediums could be massive. While it boosts squadron AA it's compensated by increased squadron price. Possibly it'll require to remove heavy AA from Ecuyer but I can't say I'll be missing it much.

Still I think a bit of play testing is required there to see whether this is OP or not.

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I have to disagree on the Ecuyer.

 

When you attach this to a Large, not only can you link your CC and impressive AA, you can also link your secondary turret with the Large's secondary systems.

 

Especially nice with a Gunnery Magenta, a La Rochelle or a Charlemagne. Their already impressive firepower will be increased even more.

 

As for the risk of the Ecuyer being destroyed and forcing a break test. There are 2 things you can do to mitigate this:

 

1. Shield your Ecuyer with your Large. Place them side by side and only have the Ecuyer turret sticking out in front of your Large. That way an opponent won't have LOS to your Ecuyer unless coming from the front/rear of your ships, or from the other side. (since only 1 end-point of the Ecuyer will be visible, the middle and the rear end will be blocked by your Large).

 

2. Use with a Magenta MkII and/or Commodore's vessel. Since the Magenta MkII confers Die Hard Attitude to any vessel within 8" (including itself), you can use this to make sure that if the Ecuyer does die, you have an extra die to roll for you break test. The same applies to the Commodore's vessel.

If you have a Commodore's vessel and a Magenta MkII within 8", you'll be throwing 5 dice for those 2 successes you require.

Those are some pretty good odds: 77% chance of 2 successes with 4 dice, 86% with 5 dice.

 

Cheers,

 

Falconer

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I agree with Falconer, +4/4/3 to secondary gunnery is a massive boost and it is not to hard to hide the Ecuyer behind the parent vessel. The Ecuyer is good as an attachment but I won't field a unit of them, Toulons and Diepes are so good in comparison. If the Ecuyer turret could link with the PS volley guns it will be very good but unfortunately it doesn't...

Then I understand the feeling of French V1 players, the Ecuyer was the main reason why other nations never play much TFs against French. Then I stopped taking them because it was useless, they have no targets to shoot at. I understand why Spartan change its stats this way.
In V2 I really like playing it with the Charlemagne because you boost the corrosive turrets 18D corrosive at RB3 is great.

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Personally Id like to get more Ecuyers, its a good solid conventional cruiser and bolsters an all guns Magenta Mk 2 very nicely. Main gun fire power is quite adequate and it does have high angle to deal with larger flyers.

 

It seems to be a work horse of the fleet type vessel. Patrolling RoF waters along with Lyons and Chevalliers where ever the RoF has a presense. Yes the Toulons will get the glory but the Ecuyer cant be forgotten by the enemy.

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I've got 3 of them and I won't be getting any more.

 

The Ecuyer is kind of poor, as a stand-alone squadron of 3, compared to the Dieppe. Especially since they're the same amount of points. I think the Ecuyer could stand to be 5 pts cheaper.

 

However as an attachment I think they're very effective within the RoF Orbat, and I'll happily field them. Since you only attach 1 to any given Large, 3 is all I need.

 

Cheers,

 

Falconer

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The RoF has great AA on most of their vessels, and with redoubtable, we don't usually lack for AA.  For a support cruiser to be effective, it needs to provide something that the rest of the fleet lacks.  RB1 killing power vs aerials is not it.  Even the heavy AA it provides vs SAS is lacking, as most SAS just avoid trying to bomb the Ecuyers and instead go after easier prey.  Without that additional range on the AA, it no longer feels like a dedicated AA vessel, and just feels like an underwhelming Dieppe.  

 

If I ever field them, it will be as a support to a core Aerial force, or attached to a large.  A full squadron's points just feel better spent elsewhere otherwise.  I will say that 12" AA would make them feel special again, because then they'd have a 20" strike range vs SAS, which happens to be the same strike range as SAS torps and dives for most nations.  We just have better options that do more things.

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The RoF has great AA on most of their vessels, and with redoubtable, we don't usually lack for AA.  For a support cruiser to be effective, it needs to provide something that the rest of the fleet lacks.  RB1 killing power vs aerials is not it.  Even the heavy AA it provides vs SAS is lacking, as most SAS just avoid trying to bomb the Ecuyers and instead go after easier prey.  Without that additional range on the AA, it no longer feels like a dedicated AA vessel, and just feels like an underwhelming Dieppe.  

 

If I ever field them, it will be as a support to a core Aerial force, or attached to a large.  A full squadron's points just feel better spent elsewhere otherwise.  I will say that 12" AA would make them feel special again, because then they'd have a 20" strike range vs SAS, which happens to be the same strike range as SAS torps and dives for most nations.  We just have better options that do more things.

 

You realize that bomber SAS only have a Mv of 12" right? SAS Dive Bombers only have a 12" strike range as they have to be in base contact, and Torp Bombers only have a 16" strike range as they have a 4" range on their torpedoes.

 

The French in V1 were just absolutely not fun to play against with my FSA. My Saratoga's were just an outright gift of 105 points to my opponent same as my entire aerial fleet thanks to the overwhelming Ecuyers. My rockets were useless, the Retardant Armor and Cloud Generators meant my gunnery was severely reduced, and the Heat Lances just meant my DR+1 was a liability.

 

The Ecuyer is still a very good unit. The 6AA is still very good aerial defense. The three anti-air weapon systems (turret, broadsides, and AA) mean that any nearby flyers will be worried.

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Whoops.  I did mess up on SAS range there, didn't I?  How embarrassing.   :wacko:   Considering my two armies are RoF and FSA, I totally understand the frustration of facing France in 1.1.  Despite this, I can't help but look at my roster and feel that they are left wanting.  The damage they can put out on RB1 Aerials is impressive, but unless I know my opponent is going to be bringing a lot of fliers, it's hard to justify a 210 point investment in anti-air when my Toulons can kill fliers in RB2 better than my Ecuyers can.  It isn't until RB1 that the Ecuyers come into their own, and that doesn't always get to happen.  It's a risky investment.  

 

At 16" AA, 12AD with sustained fire (2) plus the 12AD from their turret, they were ridiculous.  Cleared the skies of everything at 55 points a model.  Now, they cost 70 per model, making them a more expensive investment.  Sure, they got volley gun broadsides, heavy AA, and extra DR.  They got better, and became more expensive to reflect it.  The thing is, I rightly don't think they should have been made into main line cruisers.  At 60 points a model, just with the Heavy AA of 6AD and the 8/7/6/- high angle guns, they'd be fine.  I just think 70 is a tad much for a ship that fills only one role, which your opponent may not even field, given France's reputation of silly AA.  That's why if they have to cost 70, I feel they should be just a little stronger to really justify the investment.  An extra 4" of AA really cements that role.  Personally, I think the best solution is to drop the volley guns altogether and lower their price by 10 points. 

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Though I don't think that Ecuyer is improperly priced, I can't also say that it is so much great when attached to our large or massive. Indeed, it could add 4/4/3 to broadsides, 3 AA, 2 CC and 3 AP, but this only of limited use mostly. Because most our larges have Heat Lance as a main weapon RoF tends to move straight forward to reach 2 RB as soon as possible. And because you should move straight forward to maximize speed usually you can't use broadsides so Ecuyer is out of linking for 1-2 turns unless you use gun heavy larges such as Saint Malo or Vauban.

 

But here is another problem of Ecuyer. Comparing to our durable heavy ships (thanks to Cloud Gen) Ecuyer is a juicy target that can easily be killed (it's just 5/6 cruiser without armor). This makes it priority target of the squadron because when it dies it causes a break test. So to have some use of the Ecuyer you should hide it behind  your large ship to prevent it's destruction. This also means doing that you can't use it's guns to help parent model.

 

Now to auxiliary stats. Yes 3 additional AA might be cool... in other fleet. But playing RoF I rarely found lacking of AA because every our ship has plenty of them and they all are Redoubtable. 2 CC and 3 AP more handy, that is true, but pay additional 70 points for them is to much.

 

Now, why I liked the idea of attaching Ecuyer to cruiser squadron. Because they rely on numbers first of all. Cruisers die faster then large ships and that is why additional 3 AA and 2 CC could be a great asset. Not to say 3 AP that could supplant incoming boarding action which is one of the main cruiser tasks. And Ecuyer will not be so tempting target when it is in the middle of cruiser squadron just because when opponent shoots at it it ignores Toulons or Dieppes and that could be painful.

 

But as I have said before, having 4 sized cruiser squadrons could be to much for RoF and thus needs testing. But I don't think it'll be more broken than KoB cruisers with attached Dominion.

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Morning fellow Frenchies,

 

I'm hijacking and ressurecting this thread because I need some advice concerning the Marseille and don't think I need a new thread.

 

So, to the problem at hand:

I think the Marseille is so bad that it might easily be the worst unit in the entire game. I would rather field Tribals than them and that's saying something.

 

I've tested them four times and the results were the following:

  1. A squadron of CoA frigates uses their speed to get in RB2 and blows one of them out of the water. A squadron of fliers (the giant fans, can't remember their name) moves in range and blows up the other two.
  2. A Prussian cruiser squadron moves in, blows up two, boards the other one
  3. A squadron of Russian frigates moves into range and blows up two, the last one repels a boarding assault but fails his command check, and destroys itself because of the break test and no AP left. (admittedly that was hilarious)
  4. They destroy a single frigate but then Russian Gunships get into range and blow them out of the water in one salvo.

 

The last incident was expected and the Marseilles were used as bait to get the Gunships into range of Chevaliers and Requins which shot one to pieces and boarded the other one, so that was ok.

But apart from that I get the feeling that they are simply not necessary.

  • Their firepower is quite good on paper, but to get broadsides AND turrets to bear, you need to form a conga-line which is extremely vulnerable, especially when it comes to anything which allows countermeasures.
  • For the same reason you can only use half their firepower if you want to get "hit and run" to work - even with a good result on a GNE it's next to impossible to bring all broadsides and turrets to bear.
  • This leaves them with only the turrets which are nice to sink smalls but nothing else.
  • If I want to get rid of smalls, I have tons of options - Chevaliers, Epaulards, Lyons, Voltaires - the good thing about these units is that they all have an additional role to fill, Chevs and Epaulards can threaten everything on the board, Voltaires blow fliers into pieces and Lyons can threaten everything up to BBs with firepower and boarding.
  • Due to the changed linking rules even Corvettes have no problem critting or even double critting them - they are made of wet paper and if you want to use their firepower you can't hide them.

I get the idea of a stalking unit which can stay hidden until the time is right and then use its speed to hurt something. The problem is that the Marseilles are hopelessly reliant on having the first attack. Once they are out on the line, they are toast. Which would be ok, if their damage output was on par with their cost. But for 180 points I can get a Cherbourg with points to spare. The Cherbourg might be a single ship but it has better firepower and an incredible psychological effect on the enemy: he knows they'll hurt so he will put lots of energy into sinking them, leaving my larges unscathed. The Marseilles, in contrast, are something which are gunned down as an afterthought.

 

So, even in a Skimmer-heavy army with GNEs I wouldn't use them since there are other units which are either cheaper or only slightly more expensive (Epaulards for 200 points e.g.) but have way more potential. Maybe the Marcys just don't fit my style of playing, but I'm really shocked by how bad they perform every time I use them. So, before I put them on the shelf for good:

  • How do you use them/which roll do they have in your plans?
  • Where do you set them up in the beginning? Their speeds screams "flanking" but their fragility says "hide me well"

Thanks in advance for any advice given.

 

Cheers

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I have found Marseilles are a god-send against the Italians. The lack of "capital" class, and the ability to hop onto terrain to hide from torpedoes makes these things absolutely ideal for cutting through swaths of Uccissores or Italian smalls. When on a dedicated anti-small role, I have yet to be disappointed by these guys.

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All right, maybe I can get some kind of protection from Torps, but since I usually don't play against factions with lots of torpedoes, that aspect is less important to me.

Also I think that they are simply too fragile to play the anti-small role. They are fast - smalls are equally fast, so it's basically up to who gets the first strike in and then not much will strike back. Usually, 120 points of frigates manage to kill one of them in one actvation, which is simply not enough value for money for me. And if you want to link turrets with broadsides you have to form the aforementioned conga-line to get to maximum efficiency. Besides- why would anyone want to get close to them? Most mediums blow them out of the water form RBII using a 90° front arc. There is no need to move in their broadside angle at all.

 

I see the points you're making but in my experience they don't work unless I give the Marcys the first priority in activation. Something which they are usually not worth. So far the best thing they can do is kill Russian escorts since those buggers add another boatload of dice to the Russian turrets - because it's no Russian attack if there are less than 30 dice in the bucket. If my Marcys speed up the board and kill two frigates and then die horribly I feel I have achieved the best possible result.

 

As for flanking: My group for some reason doesn't want to use the rules for flanking and advanced deployment, so I can't comment on the use of that. But I see that they could be at least capable as a flanking force. Two of them might be enough to threaten destryoers and the like or annoy squadrons by getting in their backs. After that they will probably die to an attacking goldfish that was pissed by their presence but at least that way they might be useful and not a complete waste of points.

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I started to think of them as heavier heavy destroyers.

 

Get a GNE generator in the mix. That way they can hide behind a Vauban/La Rochelle then slingshot out to get those guns in.

I have had huge success in the past with them but yeah, they are very vulnerable to pretty much anything!

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Not a fan of the Marseille. Never have been. Too many weaknesses. Too little bang for your buck.

Better in 2.0 but agree with others, they just die. Would rather take another Cherbourg.Or if you want to scare your opponent, another squadron of Chevaliers.

The Marseille is another ship that if you "use it just right" and your opponent lets you, you can be effective.

In the end, I am happy to see my opponent spending 180 to take them. Easy money and not much threat.

 

 Right now the light cruiser is fast, runs into RB2 and strikes. Then it dies because it is such good points for the cost of killing it.

Yes if you time it right other threats will demand attention from the enemy larges, but smalls , SAS and mediums will eat these things for breakfast.

 

So What should a Light Cruiser be good at?

  1. RB3 with enough gun AD to kill a small per model, So 8? Oddly, Mortars would work well.
  2. Fast
  3. Hit and Run standard- Like Pack Tactics for Destroyers
  4. Good boarding at least 4 AP regular
  5. Good AA- 4 AD
  6. Make it attachable as an AA, anti-boarding threat.
  7. 50-55 points. DR 4 CR 6 4 HP

Balance above when National capabilities add to their value ( like shields then they cost more).

If forced to choose, 1 and 7 are the big ones. 

These would be everywhere. They would be dangerous, but not overwhelming.

This will never happen of course. The Heavy Destroyer is too close to these stats.

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Alma's, useful? 

Why, how?

When I see them in an opponents force I lick my chops. Great target for corvettes.

The Elusive target is probably worth the 5 points, but they seem under gunned.

So they are intended to snipe and hide while throwing out spotted markers. Meh

 Their spotter role is limited in a fleet dominated with Secondary armaments. If you take the St Malo....

Something that can actually use H&R. But the Lyons stirs more fear in an opponent I suspect.

Despite the Elusive target and H&R, I have not had much luck with them. They usually get one good attack. 

I would gladly trade spotter for specialized defenses (1). Then they could be the roaming scout/snipers they were intended to be. And be fun to play.

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I think with changes of class for several models in V2, there is now a great lack of a Large Airship... Vauban is now a Surface dread, Tourbillon takes the slot of skyfortress (great one !), but as a result RoF doesn't have any aerial BB... And the Tourbillon doesn't fill the gap because enven with good fire power, le strategic objective 75 MAR prevent him to go agressivly to the front line... So in air core gam, there is really something missing in our inventory... :(

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I Kind of agree - however whilst the Tourbillon is a sky fortress, its armament is certainly up there with the best of any flying BB. To be fair, the fact it is a skyfort makes it more tempting to take anyway because its a carrier as well. I'm a regular user and even on 1 HP the thing can still keep going with rockets an bombs and even has a boarding threat

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I completly agree ! Tourbillon is a really great skyfortress ! but if it goes down, it's 250pts for the opponent, and 500 if captured... So you cannot play it agressively like a Valley/Tsukoymi/...  or a seaborn BB... Th'at why I think we need a Large airship.

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As far as I'm aware - it only would give 425 pts if captured - you add the strategic points till the end

 

A little tip i always use - the tourbillon has enough dice to almost always stay perma obscured, meaning that it cant be boarded by anything other than fliers - which very little has enough to get past the huge AA and crew pools 

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