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Tips versus the French?

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I'm going to be starting a 1750 point game this week versus a French fleet.  Here's my intended list:

 

Kaiju (215)
Shield (2) (10)
Elite (15)
Kitsune x3 (90)
330
 
Ika (115)
 
Tenkei (150)
Kitsune x3 (90)
240
 
Tanuki x3 (255)
 
Inari x3 (240)
 
Honshu MK2 x2 (140)
Honshu Mk3 (70)
210
 
Uwatsu x4 (120)
 
Uwatsu x4 (120)
 
Uwatsu x4 (120)
 
1750
 
I was hoping those of you with a bit more experience could help me out with advice.  Are the disruption nodes good against the French or would I be better off swapping those out?  I'm a little worried about the redoubtable AA and the effect it'll have on SAS. If it's a big problem, then I may want to swap out the Tenkei for something else.
 
I have a pretty good selection of naval models from the old starter boxes but I don't have many air models besides what's on the list already.  I also have a Shadowhunter box but none of the other new models.  

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A disruption node will be useful against the big French ships who have cloud generators, giving you a -1 penalty to hit. Combined with the fact that their bigs have Retardant armour they're frustrating to get through. Your disruption node will be able to take out those pesky couds. There aren't that many other French generators you need worry about. (also coud gen's don't work against fire from RB1).

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1750 pts. and only three larges. Not sure your model count, but our big models are tops.

French have higher AA so do not expect to win with rockets. Your flyers will have a hard time too.

The Kaiju is excellent with its high angle turrets. The Ika kept submerged until needed should work also.

The Tanukis are good, the terror ship if you have one would be excellent.

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This list is actually pretty similar to what I ran recently at 1500 points, minus the inari and with some change ups in the smalls.  i tend to run very small heavy fleets, so this is a bit different for me.  If the fliers aren't much of a boon, would you suggest dropping the Tenkei and Inari for something else?  Say a squad of Nakatsu and a Sokotsu?  I considered running a two Sokotsu or multiple Ika list, but I kind of want the Kaiju's disruption node projector.  I would be running a second set of Honshu with a mk3 if I had the models :/  I have something like half a dozen squid models, a pair of battleships, and a dreadnaught in addition to the larges on the list.

 

I do have a terror ship but I'm reluctant to use it.

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Can you really afford to go without a carrier, in 2.0?  Talking about your proposed changes, I mean.

 

Carriers are usually a fantastic idea, but given just how godlike French AA is, their usefulness in that particular match-up becomes questionable. They're still good, but they aren't quite the auto-include they usually are.

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Against french you want to be gun heavy. They are going to shoot your rockets down, so expect it. Guns and boarding are were you can hurt them the most. Nodes are good against the cloud generator as mentioned. Your CV will be may be more defense than you realize. The french player I face uses a lot of SAS. Tanuki will end being the star player if you have a second squadron I would consider them. Drop the DD and some FF to make up the pts maybe the Ika as well. This is only if you have a second squadron the french are one of the few that I would even suggest it. I like your choice of battleship as it is my favorite. The Honshus will do well against the french and I like your choices. Uwatsu are our secret weapon if you don't have a second squadron of Tanuki you may consider taking more of these guys in place of the Kitsunes as Your rockets are just not going to get through the french AA. Against anyone else I really like your fleet mix. Just having dealt with french AA in the past I would spare you the frustration.

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If you have to use rockets against squadrons, make sure you fire some inconsequential shots at all the other members of the squadron, alongside your main attack. If you do that, you'll prevent their AA from linking, as they have to defend themselves first. Also, if you target big ships, try and send in 2 volleys - they have to pick one to fire all AA at, and so the other will break through unscathed. Kitsune escorts are brilliant for this!

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If you have to use rockets against squadrons, make sure you fire some inconsequential shots at all the other members of the squadron, alongside your main attack. If you do that, you'll prevent their AA from linking, as they have to defend themselves first. Also, if you target big ships, try and send in 2 volleys - they have to pick one to fire all AA at, and so the other will break through unscathed. Kitsune escorts are brilliant for this!

Nothing says they have to defend themselves first, it only says that the defending vessel must lead an AA salvo to defend himself.

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If you have to use rockets against squadrons, make sure you fire some inconsequential shots at all the other members of the squadron, alongside your main attack. If you do that, you'll prevent their AA from linking, as they have to defend themselves first. Also, if you target big ships, try and send in 2 volleys - they have to pick one to fire all AA at, and so the other will break through unscathed. Kitsune escorts are brilliant for this!

Arashi squadrons are your best friends against the french. Crawl forward your minimum move, and send triple salvos at a single target in the squadron.

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Nothing says they have to defend themselves first, it only says that the defending vessel must lead an AA salvo to defend himself.

 

You declare all defensive fire AA once attacks are declared, and you can only fire your AA once. If a model is targetted, it MUST lead an AA salvo to defend themselves. Or, to put it another way, once they are targetted they may not link into another vessel's salvo.

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You declare all defensive fire AA once attacks are declared, and you can only fire your AA once. If a model is targetted, it MUST lead an AA salvo to defend themselves. Or, to put it another way, once they are targetted they may not link into another vessel's salvo.

It says that they must lead any AA used to defend themselves not that they must fire to defend them selves. And even if what you were saying was true the method you suggest involves MORE AA defending against your attacks than if you fire two or more note worthy missile salvos (Say 7-8 a piece) at the same target which may only ever lead ONE attack, leaving the second and possible 3rd attack COMPLETELY undefended, and one attack to play it's luck in the wind.

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For me, the text is crystal clear - Any targetted Model MUST LEAD a Counter Attack to defend itself. Even if only 1 dice attacks it...The point is these distraction attacks are only token gestures - so build squadrons that have that capability (perhaps with escorts on a big boat).

 

 

 leaving the second and possible 3rd attack COMPLETELY undefended, and one attack to play it's luck in the wind.

 

Not strictly true: other ships in the squadron could declare their AA to cover the other attacks (even if it were only 2-3 dice, it could be enough against 7-8 attack die (especially if shields are involved).

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For me, the text is crystal clear - Any targetted Model MUST LEAD a Counter Attack to defend itself. Even if only 1 dice attacks it...The point is these distraction attacks are only token gestures - so build squadrons that have that capability (perhaps with escorts on a big boat).

 

 

 

Not strictly true: other ships in the squadron could declare their AA to cover the other attacks (even if it were only 2-3 dice, it could be enough against 7-8 attack die (especially if shields are involved).

 

Yes, that exact line that you are attempting to quote is exactly why the other two attacks are undefended. A counter attack to defend a ship must be lead by the ship that is being attacked. This question has been confirmed several times in questions around the forum.

 

A model must lead a counter attack to defend itself. There cannot be a counter attack lead to defend a model that does not include that model firing it's AA. AA may not be split because split fire does not exist any longer, only anti boarding AA has anything similar. It does not say that a model must use counter attack AA to defend itself it if is fired on in the actual book it does say that it must lead any counter attack made to defend itself.

 

This exact question has been asked and answered several times, in the V2.0 Rules thread, on the EotBS forum and elsewhere in threads about torpedo tactics.

 

A model must lead a counter attack is not logically equivalent to a model must declare a counter attack. If a model must lead a counter attack made then only one AA counter attack to defend that specific vessel against rockets may be made in the defense of a single vessel during a single activation.

 

Firing insignificant salvos against another vessel does not force them to defend themselves, it does not say that 'if a vessel can declare a counter attack it must' or any similar wording. It does however state that the target vessel must be the lead firer in any defensive AA or CC salvo.

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Yes, that exact line that you are attempting to quote is exactly why the other two attacks are undefended. A counter attack to defend a ship must be lead by the ship that is being attacked. This question has been confirmed several times in questions around the forum.

 

 

A model must lead a counter attack is not logically equivalent to a model must declare a counter attack. If a model must lead a counter attack made then only one AA counter attack to defend that specific vessel against rockets may be made in the defense of a single vessel during a single activation.

 

Firing insignificant salvos against another vessel does not force them to defend themselves, it does not say that 'if a vessel can declare a counter attack it must' or any similar wording. It does however state that the target vessel must be the lead firer in any defensive AA or CC salvo.

 

 

Exactly you can always choose not to defend against a given attack. Also remember you can only lend AA to units within 4 inches so try to pick off stragglers.

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That still means that if I fire three DFA-170's against 3 french cruisers, firing one salvo of 7 at each one, they can choose any of the following options:

 

Cruiser A defends itself, linking with B and C.  B and C are on their own with no dice to defend with.

 

Cruiser A defends itself with B OR C linking, and the odd one out defends itself.

 

Nobody links, each one fire its own AA to defend itself.

 

Is that right?

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That still means that if I fire three DFA-170's against 3 french cruisers, firing one salvo of 7 at each one, they can choose any of the following options:

 

Cruiser A defends itself, linking with B and C.  B and C are on their own with no dice to defend with.

 

Cruiser A defends itself with B OR C linking, and the odd one out defends itself.

 

Nobody links, each one fire its own AA to defend itself.

 

Is that right?

Actually...looking at the rules clarifications for the two of them you basically have no choice in your AA if they fire at each vessel.

 

I will conceed that to Fire because there was a slight difference in the earlier question that I had not noticed and the two stated rulings by beta testers are not contradictory but they are lead to two tactics, but I still feel an escorted Kiaju or the above DFA's would be better served by firing three times at the same target in most cases.

 

The bullets work out as follows:

  • If a rocket or torpedo attack is fired at you and you can defend yourself the line 'Must' means you 'must defend yourself' reguardless of the size of the attack you fire AA at it. (This could be useful in...maybe removing escorts by firing inconsequential rocket barrages at 2 escorts and the parent and then firing a big one at the baby you wish to kill. But see the next bullet)
  • Any counter attack against rockets or torpedoes MUST be lead by the target. You can not however, split fire against multiple attacks. (If you target multiple salvos at the same vessel, one, defender's choice, will be AAed against by the target leading with the choice of having his friends link in. The rest of the attacks hit undefended  unless there are shields which do not have explosive dice so you can likely 'plan' for them or mars. )

 

Point number II means that your attacks will suffer less total AA if you target  a single vessel. 8, 7, 7 from the kaiju with escorts rocketing a target will result in two undefended attacks, the larger number of dice also ups your chance of getting multiple 6's on the attack that is defended agaisnt which thanks to the generally better hit numbers of rockets means you still have a slight advantage on that attack. for overpowering AA and shields, but they might be rolling more dice than you had to start so...take that advantage with a grain of salt. The other two attacks (likely the less threatening 7's) will generate 5.6 hits against most mediums which has a roughly 50% chance (slightly better than) of causing damage against a medium of DR 4 with 2 shield dice. Against the french I think this nets about 5 hits average which is a pretty solid chance of damage or crit against all french mediums. Alternatively you can fire an 11 and a 9 die attack, the nine has a much better chance of causing damage or crit with an average of 7.2 hits which has a less that 50% by a little chance of getting a crit on a 2 shield DR6 medium or will get about 6 hits with RA. All this tactical effort goes to hell against a big ship, don't bother honestly, but you can use it to pick off his escorts.

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Hi shad0wb0w - your Search-Fu is stronger than mine tho! Removing escorts is always a good tactic - it will normally net you between 60-90 VP's, which is no bad thing for one activation. Mind you, the French don't have any escort! You'll want to remove their cloud generators (where the Kaiju comes in handy) - and a fully escorted Kaiju gets 2 3dice diversionary rockets, and a main attack of 13 dice (1 battery + linked battery and escort).

I would recommend Arashi (seems counter-intuitive) but you get a choice of 2x6 dice against each cruisers in a squadron - of which only 1 can be AA'd (or alternatively 3x9 dice and hope for poor AA rolls of 4 dice, 2x12 against single targets (such as the Cherbourg), in the first activations (if the initiative order is favourable). I find taking HP off these ships is the best strategy to get rid of their AA, once they're down to half damage even French ships will take damage from rockets. 

 

I would also consider a Raijin, as that has another decent rocket output which, with escorts, will achieve the same goals. Provided you deploy sensibly you should be saved from lots of aggressive AA. I would recommend a close formation, on one flank, and refuse the other. Their big ships have symmetrical weapon load-outs, so they want to be in the centre of the board to get targets in both arcs. Deny them one flank, and their output is halved. Uwatsu (and to a lesser extent Yurgis) will help ambush them when they get close enough - the French fleet seems to want to get into RB 1-2, but we have the long range weapons to damage them before they close (and refusing the flank will delay half their forces even more....just beware flankers (but you will know where they're coming before you deploy!)

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Removing escorts is always a good tactic - it will normally net you between 60-90 VP's, which is no bad thing for one activation. Mind you, the French don't have any escort!

 

Remember that they do have other types of attachments though. The Ecuyer springs to mind which is very nasty in the AA department. Only difference with an escort is that they have to roll for disorder if the Ecuyer dies.

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Cheers Falconer - I missed that! Considering it is a Medium ship, it can block Line of Sight to Larges - meaning it is possibly better to target first until it sinks. Or, if you're confident at sniping with Fixed Channel, then go ahead with my beloved Arashi  :wub: !

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As a French player I will say that the node gen can hurt a lot so if I play vs the **** I will put a Null gen on my larges/massives : Charlemagne, Vauban, St Malo and La Roche then the Couronne and the Magenta can't have CG and Null gen simultaneously so it can be good to have at least 1 node gen in your fleet.

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I'd advice for getting at least one carrier in your list. The french can easily bring an absurd amount of SAW's to the table which can be highly resistant to ships attacking them with AA due to big fuel tanks on all their wings. Getting yourself at least three wings of fighters with Swarm tactics helps bring them down.

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People have said to send a big attack at your target with distracting mini attacks from the escorting Kitsunes.

 

Wouldn't they make their counterattack against the big one, and not care about the others?  Seems like a safe bet that they won't do any damage....

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People have said to send a big attack at your target with distracting mini attacks from the escorting Kitsunes.

 

Wouldn't they make their counterattack against the big one, and not care about the others?  Seems like a safe bet that they won't do any damage....

 

Ah - the trick is that anyone else targetted by a distracting mini attack CANNOT link their AA into defend the big one. So, you fire distracting mini attacks at other ships in a squadron, and that way the big attack only has 1 ship's worth of AA, not 3.

Really only works against squadrons, not single ships on their own. For those, you could instead send 2 waves of rockets, of which only 1 can be defended against...

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Ah - the trick is that anyone else targetted by a distracting mini attack CANNOT link their AA into defend the big one. So, you fire distracting mini attacks at other ships in a squadron, and that way the big attack only has 1 ship's worth of AA, not 3.

Really only works against squadrons, not single ships on their own. For those, you could instead send 2 waves of rockets, of which only 1 can be defended against...

You can still do the second tactic against a full squadron, it really depends on your tactical preferences. In many cases tactic #1 takes away just as many rockets from the full attack or possibly even more. Against a ship with shredded defences #1 may be more viable.

 

Then again...can a ship with shredded defenses be defended at all since it can no longer lead a defense? Do his buddies just let him die because he can't fire the first CC?

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