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Pious Van Dorn

Using Air Support Properly

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When CAP are initially introduced, they are introduced as member of a squadron (which would imply they are able to join in defensive AA against rocket attacks).

 

I'm afraid that's not how I read it.

 

I'm not going to write up the text verbatim since I think Spartan would object to that. The introduction does mention that "important models will have Wings or Infantry assigned to them", which is not quite the same thing as being a (full) member of a squadron.

 

Later on in the text it does indeed mention that the CP becomes a member of the squadron, but by that time one exception has already been listed (CP needing to remain in base contact). So it stands to reason that other exceptions can exist, which is confirmed if you read a little further.

 

Further more I think it is not a normal thing to assume that CP is a normal member of the squadron, using all regular rules for squadrons, since:

a: that would have been mentioned specifically.

b: the anti-boarding and agressive counter-attack wouldn't have been mentioned, since that is what squadron members are always allowed to do.

 

I do agree with you that the fact that this is not a regular attachment could have been specifically mentioned. It would have made things clearer.

 

Cheers,

 

Falconer

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I agree those points with you, Falconer, but I would say that any ruleset that requires you to "reasonably assume" hasn't finished the job of explaining the rules in sufficient detail.

 

To my mind it's not a reasonable assumption, RAW it states that CP can link with defensive fire against boarders and aggressive counter attack, as it does not mention anything else in the section specifically dedicated to CP then all other uses are not allowed. As soon as you start making the argument "Well it doesn't SPECIFICALLY say I can't do X....." then you are already starting to stray from, what I would consider, good gamesmanship and heading down a deep and dark rabbit hole where all the fun is extracted from games and they become protracted legalese arguments.

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The 6 from the carrier you don't have to decide what to use before you see the enemy list.

 

I did a quick test versus myself, and it seems to me like IF you have more fighters then your enemy, you rule the skies, at least in respect to SAS. If the enemy has one carrier, I would go for only fighters. Take his squads completly down, replenish when threatened. Once you have cleared the table of enemy fighters, then you transform one squad into something different. If the enemy has no carriers or extra fighters in some way, I could go with one torpedo bomber from the start.

 

I would also like to note that fighters are excelent boarding defence when used as CAP. +7AA (8 for our case) is crazy good.

Fighters are also great at striking at bigger airships.

 

But I also learned, from my quick test versus myself, that if your enemy has more fighters than you, you will have fare more trouble getting the millage out of a carrier.

Cuz you'll get swarmed and killed. And watching the enemy (in this case myself) replenish its fighters after I have been swarmed, was nasty, nasty, nasty. It didn't help that made them into dive bombers.

I also had a carrier but nothing to replenish.

 

Besides, I find that the Air fortress is nice on its own. It got guns, rockets and BOMBS. The nice thing about rockets is that they stay the same even when you get damaged. BOMBS are also nice.

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The 6 from the carrier you don't have to decide what to use before you see the enemy list.

 

I did a quick test versus myself, and it seems to me like IF you have more fighters then your enemy, you rule the skies, at least in respect to SAS. If the enemy has one carrier, I would go for only fighters. Take his squads completly down, replenish when threatened. Once you have cleared the table of enemy fighters, then you transform one squad into something different. If the enemy has no carriers or extra fighters in some way, I could go with one torpedo bomber from the start.

 

I would also like to note that fighters are excelent boarding defence when used as CAP. +7AA (8 for our case) is crazy good.

Fighters are also great at striking at bigger airships.

 

But I also learned, from my quick test versus myself, that if your enemy has more fighters than you, you will have fare more trouble getting the millage out of a carrier.

Cuz you'll get swarmed and killed. And watching the enemy (in this case myself) replenish its fighters after I have been swarmed, was nasty, nasty, nasty. It didn't help that made them into dive bombers.

I also had a carrier but nothing to replenish.

 

Besides, I find that the Air fortress is nice on its own. It got guns, rockets and BOMBS. The nice thing about rockets is that they stay the same even when you get damaged. BOMBS are also nice.

+7?

I'm fairly sure its +5 and +6 you take half of the SAW unit's firepower and add it to the defending ship's AA and the defending ship has to lead.

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CAP Link fire with the parent model. Swarm Tactics only applies to Combined fire. Thus, a full SAS (10 AA) would give +5 AA, unless I'm missing/misinterpreting something.

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ok so I ran my list against my friends KoB last week - he decided to run out his new toys and went very sub heavy. That aside I think I learnt some very valuable lessons regarding our carriers and the use of tiny flyers. I also moved my commadore from my Tenaki to a Kiyohime as a didn't want to ruin the game if my mate got kill the commadore with a heavy sub fleet - seemed a little bit out of order so that was the only switch.

1) I'm struggling to see why the Kiyohime is more expansive that the Tenaki. Rugged 1 on the Kiyohime is not enough of a benefit compared to the ability to fly obscured. The Tenaki was a beast - it kept up with the flights I had on the right hand side of my force replenishing them when I could, took out a couple of Agincourts and bombed a squadron of destroyers back to the stone age.

2) Even though I outnumbered the KoB flyers 28 to 10 (9 of mine were TB's) so nearly 2:1 in fighters I still ended up with 0 at the end of turn 3 and there were 3 stands of KoB fighters still circling. My mate used frigates, corsairs and gunships to AA the snot out of any fighter squadron he got within 8 of - so even with massive air superiority it is still had to totally dominate

3) I managed to get 2 x 3 TB's on attack runs on his large subs and they did a crit on each run which is really handy but... I never managed to rearm them so they could go again which was a little frustrating.

4) I had a obscene number of activations as I had 2 x spotters, 3 x TB's,  3 x 5 fighters, 1 x 4 fighters, plus all my ships and that really got me into the potsitions I needed to be in rather than did terrifying damage. I like the 3 or 4 stand squadrons now and I played a game over the weekend with just a Tenaki and managed to get 5 x 3 fighters and 1 x spotter which is frankly awesome.

There's my intitail thoughts - I'm still torn as I won the game but felt it was more down to some good luck with the Tenaki going mental with it's weapons and my Kiyohime surviving a ram from a big sub then it was from airpower...

Anyone else had any experiences?

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I need to get more games versus more opponents, but I want to try out still going torpedo bomber heavy, even if my opponent takes a bunch of fighters.  But I want to hang the bombers back a good ways, let my other ships shred his fighters with AA and come in later when his forces are already damaged and limping.  Put the finishing hits on things instead of trying to get a ton of dice and double-crit things.

 

 

Since SAWs roll fewer dice and hit on worse numbers, typically now, I don't think we should expect them to be the double-critting cruiser executioners they used to be, but rather something that can reliably crit something and help the rest of your fleet take them down.

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Remember, if you oponent has a carrier, he can just replenish thoes fighters... you need something to finish them off... And if you have a carrier your self, you can always transform your fighters into torpedo-bombers or dive bomters as you wish anyway...

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But everybody seems to be saying that torpedo-bombers is better than dive-bombers, mostly cuz we got a special rule for torpedo bombers but not for dive-bombers.

 

But, is this so?

 

The benefit of the torpedo bombers is that

1) you can set them up so that only one enemy is within 4", thus reducing the number of enemy AA before fire.

 

2) Torpedo bombers have effectively 4" large range. If those 4" is important, its realy important.

 

3) Torpedo bombers may easily attack subs. If enemy has some, this is a very nice feature.

But dive-bombers also have the sub-killing mar. So the difference isn't that huge.

 

BUT, disadvantages

a) Enemy do get CC versus torpedoes.

 

B) The dive bomber get +1 to hit versus naval.

 

c) Dive bombers ignore shields.

 

With faster torpedoes the disatvantage a) is reduced versus a group of mediums and smalls. But versus single larges the faster torpedoes has no effect.

 

Is torpedo-bombers always better? Sure benefit 1) and 2) are very nice, but the dive-bombers do have far more punch.

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Faster torpedoes do have an effect if that Large/Massive is moving with escorts.  As long as you can finagle out a way to ignore said escorts AA.

 

Yes, but still, an undamaged battleship has 6AA itself, 5CC and 2dice in shields, 6DR. The 6AA will in averrage kill 2 torpedo bombers. Then you're left with 3 torpedo bombers with 9 dice. Then the to beat 6DR and 7 defence dices... To do some damage, the battlehsip has to be damaged to begin with...

 

Then it seems easier for me to shoot down the esscorts, and send in 5 dive bombers. Then 2 will get killed and you will be left with 9 dices versus 6DR with no defence dices. With the +1 to hit it's capable of destroying the target.

 

Versus mediums and smalls, the benefit of the Torpedoes to ignore AA from supporting models in the same squadron is a big plus. And the extra range might be very good. The question is, is it dead given that these bonuses outweigh the negatives?

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Yes, but still, an undamaged battleship has 6AA itself, 5CC and 2dice in shields, 6DR. The 6AA will in averrage kill 2 torpedo bombers. Then you're left with 3 torpedo bombers with 9 dice. Then the to beat 6DR and 7 defence dices... To do some damage, the battlehsip has to be damaged to begin with...

 

Then it seems easier for me to shoot down the esscorts, and send in 5 dive bombers. Then 2 will get killed and you will be left with 9 dices versus 6DR with no defence dices. With the +1 to hit it's capable of destroying the target.

 

Versus mediums and smalls, the benefit of the Torpedoes to ignore AA from supporting models in the same squadron is a big plus. And the extra range might be very good. The question is, is it dead given that these bonuses outweigh the negatives?

Six dice that hit on 5+ get four hits on average? May need to check your math. 4" range can help getting it to rearm next turn and shoot again, cutting back on aa from escorts/squadmates due to proper positioning is also pretty good at increasing AD, say that saves a single TB, 3AD. DBs get +1 for Surface, 16% bonus, about three more hits. Fairly tough call and I would say it should be decided by the situation on the board. If the enemy group really tightly with good AA the DBs may become useless, TBs will still have a safe angle probably. If not there is always carpet bombing from bigger air, get them to break up.

As to taking carriers or not, if your meta ignores carriers, then you should easily be able to take control with a carrier or two, allowing you to throw in some TBs or DBs. If the meta does use lots of carriers, then you need fighters to defend yourself, at least as the ****, Russians have some good options with Suyetka and Szabla to take air control.

The Tenkei can advance in some security in the air, with Obscured more HP and higher CR, allowing more rearms and refits. Kiyo can hit harder at first glance, but the single turret will not stand up in close range. It is more of the sit back unit, the Tenkei is the aggro option. Escorts on the Tenkei also add decent AD to the rockets.

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Maybe I calculated as if it was 4+... then you get 1 hit from a 4 and 1 hit from a 5 and two from a 6.

Even with 5+, you still get bewteen one and two torpedo-bomber killed. Even with 12 dice, it seems unlikely to beat 6DR+5CC.

 

I agree that its a though call. Versus mediums torpedo bombers can be better and probably is. But versus big ships, I'm guessing dive-bombers are better.

 

I also think that having 2 carriers may be benefitiall, as they aid each other. And versus Air, fighters are excelent!

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I almost always go torpedo or Dive bomber heavy. Fighters are great, but if you have more ordinance wings then they will not kill them all before you get your payload off. 
 

I am still trying to determine which of the two I prefer, Torpedo or Dive bombers.

 

As for our Kiyohime, that turret is amazing! I use one and I screen it with a Heavy Battleship or Dreadnought. Just leave the nose out and allow that turret to fire while it is protected. This makes the most of the rugged construction. If you use the Heavy Battleship then people can fire with primaries but are partially blocked and then rugged construction takes effect. This is half AD -1. Good luck! I hope they do shoot at me! 

 

If you use the Dreadnought then it is literally just blocked as they can almost always only see the one end of the model. 

 

Since I switched to this tactic I have found that I LOVE the Kiyohime again. 

 

Lastly I should note that I have run carrier heavy forever, version 1 and now 2 and I still love it. Go for max damage and position effectively and you will learn to love your SAWS. I manage to use them to give me a massive edge in most games. 

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Non-SAS models targeting SAS hit's them on 4, 5, (blue)6 so 6AA will indeed kill 2 of them.

 

If you run a screened Kiyohime then you're only using one third of it's weapon systems. Thats 10% of your army (in a 1500 pts game) that shoots sub par.

 

Personally I prefer To run without carriers. My meta is very carrier heavy from russians, CoA and RF, (seriously 3 carriers in a 1500 pts isn't uncommon) all of which have access to fleet carriers and spam insane amounts of TF's. So now a days I just attach my CAP's and hunt their carriers with Tanukis.

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I am usually firing the torpedos at whatever opposing the flank I am on. Also I still get the broadsides in if needed by moving past the screening ship and firing. Then they get one chance to shoot me before I move the screening ship back into place. Plus if done right you can move it so that you can draw line of sight to your target while still being partially blocked to a large portion of the enemy fleet because of the angles they require to see the middle of your Kiyohime. 

 

I assure you it works better than you might think once you master the strategy.

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