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Yeah Cleomedes's will stay in my Force lists for sure

and Interviglium you dont have to pre-apolize for you opinion. Everyone has one on all models in the list and thats why this Topic is made so tell your opinion. As long as it stays normal i wont be mad ;)

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Damn French....

 

I HATE retardant armour!!!!

 

They seem to be able to generate stupid AD with their SECONDARY turrets and can link them with broadsides - what's that all about! Talk about having your gateaux and eat it....

 

Their DR and CR are not much different to other vessels of the same class

 

Same manoeuvrability as other vessels

 

Heat lances are just the best weapon out there - Piercing, Redoubtable, Incendiary, etc...... and stupid AD

 

Their AA is a pain

 

Boarding - hmm with CoA vessels - nah

 

Their CC is average

 

 

They are a tough opponent to face.... grrrrrrrrrrr

 

 

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Don't be afraid of boarding with the CoA. Thales, Zenos, Cleomedes, Platos. All 4 are decent boarders in full squadrons against the french. Their AA is high and redooubtable, which is a problem, but slap a dilation field on top of one and it halves the AA.

Retardant armour is less of a problem than it used to be. Each 6 still counts as 2 hits. Generally speaking retardant armour (1) is not a problem to blast through. When it gets to 2 or 3 then it is a problem.

Target priority is, of course, important. Dieppe cruisers are very good at boarding (and fairly solid at everything else) so take one out early. Requins likewise. The battlecruiser is a nightmare, 3 heat lancettes will tear holes in even the Prometheus. Piercing holes. The battlecruiser is not long ranged though, it will probably come into RB2 for an effective strike. Focus on it and kill it before it gets a 2nd shot.

The ships which rely on linking their turrets and broadsides suffer mightily from damage degradation, almost as badly as the Aristotle with normal turrets does.  But unlike the Aristotle, they seldom have other strong weapons to cover the lack.

3 strong drone fighter wings are good for thinning out the french SAW. Relaunch them as larger squadrons of dive or torp bombers and aim for the mediums or damaged large targets.

Remember that secondary weapons have more restricted LOS than primary and cannot engage in indirect fire. You can use terrain to cover your fleet and the french cannot fire over their own ships as easily.

 

You are right, they are a very strong faction with some annoyingly good weapons. Luckily they do not play to our weaknesses (french boarding is generally equivalent to CoA) and we outrange them most of the time with e-turrets fairly handily. Also, if they do get up close, their cloud generators cease to work in RB1, generally meaning we are tougher at RB4 and RB1, with our shields beating out the cloud in those ranges imo.

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Haven't got Zeno's yet. On the shopping list.

 

Energy Blast Orbs get..... blasted apart

 

Dreadnought did well and wreaked the enemy that it fired at.

 

Am I right that PA's can't link fire.

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I can second the thing with the french battlecruiser - kill it. Don't forget: A Hippasus and 3 Plutarch can be a deadly combo against even such a bastard (20 AD in RB 1). As well 2 Plato can be a shield for a bigger one and every Wavelurker is well hidden behind some smalls - be it Escorts be it Diogenes. Would be interesting to see what happens if one hides wavelurking behind an Armada of Smalls and tries to get in RB 1 or 2 with normal turrets ...

 

NC

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I agree, i won last thurseday a game against HEC when i boarded the Elysium with 2 Zenos.

Boarding assaults are very good when planned out nice. Thats Why i dont use. Corvettes for boardings. Reckless isnt good and having 5 models who shoot 15 AD in RB1 is much better :D

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Ok, so just took a surface killer fleet of 3 Aristotles, 6 Fresnels plus some Diogenes to make up 1250 points against KoB, was expecting the big shilded BB bruisers and in close nasties to keep the guardians in play so took disruption generators thinking to get in close with 3BB (normal turrets) and let the Fresnels deal with the trimmings. KoB showed up with 2 surface units and the rest were subs. He let me rejig to take out the Fresnels for a pair of BC, a few more frigates and some Cleomedes, 3 turns later it was less than funny - obliterated 1 sub unit that failed to dive and his sank cruiser/destroyer bits in short order but lost horribly. BB, BC and 2 Cleomedes sunk by turn 3, all but 2 squadrons failed disorder tests and 1 BB had a locked rudder and failed to repair 3 times with an island in front of it..... Last BC leggid it and left 1 BB plus 4 frigates and 2 Cleomedes (1 crippled) in amongst a very healthy wolf pack! :blink:

 

Opponent played really well and both of us had some very good and very poor luck (21 dice, 2 success level of crappy then a 5 dice attack causing 15 hits or so).

 

Anyway - how do we deal with sub heavy fleets? I have a 1000pts Black Wolf which the other guy hates but tbh it's not all that good against subs en masse.

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The Epicurus really shines against sub fleets being able to relaunch torpedo drones and has 6 CC which is about as good as we get in that department. 

 

But as stated wave lurked PA's, torps, torp drones and flyers...

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If I knew I was going up against a probably torpedo heavy fleet, I would be all-in on the Diophantus.

 

8AD of fast torps.

Drone spam of torpedo SAW.

12/12/6/0 Particle Accelerator

Surface mines x3 (Linked mines against submerged...if it happens to come into play...are lovely, especially if you spend an extra 10 points on the mine controller generator!)

 

As an added bonus, I might even bother with escorts if i thought I might likely get within CC range. What do you guys think of that? 75 points is a bit of an investment, but the added CC would link for +2....giving a total of 7CC.

 

Normally I would not consider that enough value for 75 points, but since the Galen's turret is a secondary, and 270 fore arc, it can link with the Diophantus' broadsides easily....resulting in a potential 19 AD at range band 2 with linked gunnery if I have this right. (I have not tried this, but going through it here as an exercise,  I am definitely going to test this out in the future!)

 

I know the Epicurus has been mentioned. Great option for torpedo SAW wings, and good CC. I like it. Here is another one I kind of like....Daedalus Beta with three Alea escorts. Now I grant you, no SAW torpedo planes, which is a large downside compared to the Epi. But what about the upside?

1. - Surface mines x5 (!) - Now keeping in mind I am assuming use of a mine controller on the Diophantus. This makes me very eager to scatter around a few really big linked mines for either area denial or straight up offense against enemy subs.

2. - Daedalus has 5CC, which would link up for a total of 7CC with the escorts.

3. I can still shoot my turrets and broadsides against other surface targets.

4. Subs cannot typically do much to me in the air.

 

Now I admit, really the Daedalus+Alea option is about mines to a great degree, and about pairing the group with the Diophantus. The idea of dropping big linked mines, and then detonating them before my opponent can act, appeals to me greatly. So greatly in fact, that a group of three Ptolemy bombers might be fun. (Or could be used for lower points instead of the Daedalus+Alea option.) 180 points gets me yet another powerful linked mine, or two medium power linked mines. (A total of 6 mines, 2 per bomber?...sign me up!)

 

Daedalus Beta+3 Alea, Diophantus with mine controller+3Galen, and three Ptolemy bombers would set you back 705 points.

 

Now I grant you, 705 is a lot. Maybe too much focus on mines for a 1000 point game, but pretty great at 1500. And for well less than the full 705 you could do the Diophantus and just one of the two air group options.

 

I have only faced one really sub heavy force to date, and it was the Brits. (I have yet to face the Black Wolf, none of my gaming group has them yet.)  So, this post is purely a thought experiment for me. Not tested...but it feels like it might be a fun way to go. (And also maybe interesting against a not so sub heavy force too.) The whole notion of dropping three linked High Payload mines every turn...one at 14AD, one at 12AD, and one at 8AD....with a mine controller....just seems full of possibilities.

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All sounds good - Diophantus is on the way from Spartan with 3 more Cleomedes. Epicurus and a Pericles at the top of the queue for painting.

 

As to the Wavelurking PA - are the dice halved underwater? (deep diving), I thought indiscriminate weapons were not affected but the opposition and club view is that it counts as obscured so even point blank damaging a Vengeance is difficult with that restriction.

 

Thanks for the advice, will see how it pans out next week.

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PAs are not marked as lower, and thus are not marked as Partially Blocked due to Wave Lurker. They also aren't Partially Blocked by shooting at a submerged model, as they count as firing from submerged (Only ordnance from surface or up counts as Partially Blocked when shooting at submerged models).

 

So you're fine, it fires at full dice.

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Yes - the note that submerged weapons are partially blocked should clarify that this is for targetting surface or above, a lot of people assume/assert that also counts for hitting submerged as it is not qualified fully, always an interesting debate. Those doing the 'half AD' are usually the ones with a lot of submaries.

 

Am I correct in thinking that they are halved for deep diving though?

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We don't have a particle accelerator that can inhabit the deep diving level. Since a PA only hits models on the same height level (or the submerged level, due to wavelurker rules) we cannot fire one at anything deep diving (or stratospheric for that matter)

 

As for taking on a sub fleet;

The CoA is possibly the faction most easily damaged by torpedoes since our CC is very low and easily reduced to worthlessness. Even the mighty prometheus only has 4 CC.

Our shields can try and make up for this, especially with inventive scientists, but generally torp shots will get through, and this is a real pain when facing the KoB with their piercing torps.

Unfortunately this also means that sub heavy lists are going to be a pain for us, since almost all of them bring heavy torpedo shots to the engagement.

How can we counter this? Well, as may be obvious, we can make heavy use of our airforce (which is, in my opinion, one of the strongest in the game (not many others have a sky dread yet :P), faster torps and wavelurking particle accelerators. Our torpedoes, despite being faster, are not particularly good sub hunters (except for the drone ones) because submarines tend to have quite good CC, so use these as finishing options to already damaged targets. Sadly in a naval game our air core is limited to 40% which means 60% of our force will be vulnerable to the submarines. We can use naval carriers to add more drones and torps to the field but with a maxed air core it is obvious where the enemy torpedoes will be heading.

If you do not know what your opponent will be bringing then setting up your list as a counter to subs may leave you open in other areas. Some unit I might recommend though would be;

Diophantus - Great strong massive drone launching wave lurking pain in the enemy posterior. It is hard to think when one of these will not improve a list (outside of a land game of course)

Cleomedes - The more I use these guys, the more I like them. They are very tough for cruisers and can fill many rolls (and, when your entire plan goes to pot, you can usually throw them into the breach and know they can get the job done). Torps for sub hunting, turrets for surface hunting, broadsides for incidental fire. Shields, inventive scientists and wave lurking for protection. Oh, and 4 elite AP on each one for that last gasp boarding attempt.

Pericles - Here, have some drones! Also torps and e-turret sniping. Oh, you killed the drones...here, have some more :D What? Come closer? Nah, I'm good here at the back, being all massive and drawing line of sight nice and easily.

Epicurus - Drones. Again. Against subs this beauty will not have much else to offer, but it will happily play with enemy aircraft/surface targets whilst the drones cater to the waterloving targets.

Diogenes - another little gem. In last edition I used them because our other small options were a bit meh. This edition they are noble beasts! 8AD of faster torps is not much of a threat to anything that isn't damaged or a small, but they are perfect finishing moves. Plus broadsides, to engage close range enemy smalls. This is a squadron that goes in every list I make.

 

Please note that drone spam is a very cruel trick to throw at a submarine heavy enemy. Any Pericles will be targeted for torpy death very quickly and the Diophantus will soon follow, but the sub commander will need a fair amount of luck on his side (or, you know, a more balanced list) to cope. This leads neatly onto my last thoughts on facing sub lists...

Subs are very very limited. At least for the most part. They tend to do one or two things, but do them reasonably well. For the KoB these two things are torping and ramboarding (ok, ramboarding is technically two things, but they happen very close together so leave me alone!). This means the submarines will tend to surface at some point or other to ram and board. After a ram they might try to sink again, but after a boarding attempt they cannot. This is the moment when you can jump on them, pound them with your remaining weaponry or just plain board them. Units of Thales kept in reserve are good for this. Flying units, being mostly immune to submarines, should also be in good condition to bring weapons to bear.

 

I have played on the other side of this, bringing an almost entirely submarine based list against a chinese fleet. It was a strange game where the chinese fleet could barely touch me, but I could not do much damage to him without surfacing. When I surfaced, my subs got swarmed by boarders. We (the CoA) cannot do swarm boarding like the Chinese, but our units (remember the Cleomedes!) can easily gang up on a submarine to take it out of action.

A final note; our allies can include Italian Affondatores/Scutums/Fortunas, Aussie crocodiles and black wolf Deathbringers and Reapers. Submarines do not like these units.

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