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Overload the generator!

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As it got passed over in the 2.0 rules thread, posting it in a separate thread.
 
Below is a quote from the 2.0 question thread from this post.
 

BuckDharma, on 03 Jun 2014 - 6:11 PM, said:snapback.png

A question regarding the CoA Commodore doctrine, "Overload the Shields"!

 

And pardon me please in advance, I do not have the rule book yet, (still awaiting my shipment to arrive). The answer may be obvious had I the book in hand.

 

Here is the rule as of now:

Overload the Generator! - This Ability may be activated at any time during a Squadron's Activation
provided a member of the Squadron is within 8” of the Commodore’s Model. The player may choose to
modify the actual result of an INITIAL Die Roll of a Generator by +/-1. This could allow the Die to move
from a 5 result to being a 6!

 

My question is, can this be used effectively for a defensive shield generator boost? In order for this to work, i must be able to declare this effect during a squadrons activation. Then, said effect must "stick", until the point at which it takes some hits from an attack. However, it does not clearly state the ability of this to "stick" once activated. So unless that is clarified, i would currently have to lean towards a definition of, "Sure, you can declare this doctrine ability and apply it to the shield generator on your activation phase, but unless you need to make a shield roll during your activation, it'll go poof and be of no value when said squadron gets shot at".

 

Either way is fine, I just want to make sure if this can be used to good effect with shields or not....it might be useful for a desperation mine sweeping move in any case.

 

 No, this won't work.  The 'Alter a dice' can't be saved up until you need it, you use it when you activate it.

 

The only time you could use this to help your shields would be if you were attacking, and subject to Defensive AA/CC against the attacking  model. Then, as you're using the Shield generator in the models activation,  the ability can be used.

Also, just like in 1.1, Shields don't help against mines.

James

 

Question regarding Overload the generator! commodore ability from the CoA.

The quote above IMO has really muddied the waters on a ability which did not have the best wording in the first place:

 

(from the COA pdf)

Overload the Generator! - This Ability may be activated at any time during a Squadron's Activation provided a

member of the Squadron is within 8” of the Commodore’s Model. The player may choose to modify the actual result
of an INITIAL Die Roll of a Generator by +/-1. This could allow the Die to move from a 5 result to being a 6!

 

From looking at the other commodore abilities this was the only one that I could recall where it appears you have the possibility of using it directly on the other players ships. Other abilities buff your own ships (eg RC Sturginium Overload) or do something to the other players stuff via a buff to your own ship (eg FSA Punishing Gunnery).

 

This ability could be used on a generator due to a generators useage in these ways:

Covenant turn:

1: Covenant defensive vs counter attacks (ok in the above ruling?) -  eg making a shield 5 be a 6 vs counterattacks

2: Covenant offensive on hostile ships or general on either depending on the generator. (no generator I can think of would give a buff in the COA turn)

3: Hostile defensive vs covenant fire. - eg turning a a 5 on a shield roll vs coa fire

4Continuous effect. (nothing to modify)

 

Hostile turn:

5Covenant defensive use in hostile turn vs hostile fire (gone due to the above ruling?) 
6: Offensive/standard use by hostile ships on covenant ships or friendly ships. - eg making a sonic generator success roll of a 4 be a failed 3.
7: Defensive on hostile ships vs covenant counterattacks. - eg making a shield 5 be a 6
8Continuous effect. (nothing to modify)
 
(I think that is all of the generator useage that this power could modify)
From a RAW point of view any of the above but continuous generators this power can be used with. As mentioned above this was the only power that has the potential to be used directly on hostile ships so perhaps the RAI was only to again buff your own ships, but if this is the case why is the ability to modify the dice roll by -1 included?
 
So for the questions:
Which of the 8 possible generator uses can this power apply to?
Is the useage in my examples legal?
Is the ruling on 5 wrong?
 

And a specific usage question:

A:  This power CAN be used to make a 5 into a 6, is the reverse true as well?

 

I kinda feel if all of the examples above stand I kinda think the wording should read:

Overload the Generator! - This Ability may be activated at any time during any Squadron's Activation where a Generator has been activated provided a member of the Squadron is within 8” of the Commodore’s Model. The player may choose to modify the actual result of a single INITIAL Die Roll of a Generator by +/-1. This could allow the Die to move from a 5 result to being a 6!

 

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Got to say, I don't really see much utility in this ability. The range is really short, it only works during the squadron's activation, and we don't actually have that many generators that roll during that time.

 

Shields- Only active during counter attacks, and anything big enough to have shields can either stay out of range or not care that much.

Mine Controller- An extra inch- that's a pretty niche ability.

Target Painter- Allows you to pass on 3+ instead of 4+. About the best use I can see for this ability.

Disruption- This means getting hit by the disruption itself to be close enough to use the ability, or using a disruption generator mounted on the Commodore's vessel- and RB1 is not where the Commodore wants to be in a CoA force.

 

Other factions get a full attack re-roll (PLC, PE), ignore critical hit effects for a turn (CF), crew type upgrades on high AP units (RC), extra damage (FSA) etc.

 

It's a great power in theory, but we don't actually have that much that it would be useful on.

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Now if it could affect shield rolls anywhere, that could be a good ability. Boosting a 5 to a red 6 would give us that smidgen of survivability boosting goodness that a vessel occasionally needs.

As it stands... It is very meh. Maybe if we had more offensive generators...

Anyone else think it is off that the ability specifically says it is able to boost to a red 6, yet no generator we have aside from shields can benefit from a red 6?

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There are three points in the doctrine where I think the writing is too vague, where the written rules are likely not intended, or where the intent seems to conflict with the intent of other sections of the doctrine:

As written, you can use the doctrine during the activation of a squadron, provided a member is within 8" of the commodore. This could include an opponent's squadron, but it seems unlikely that is the intent.

What bother me more is that there is no written restriction on which generators can be affected. It doesn't have to be on the squadron being activated, it doesn't have to be in range of anything, it doesn't even have to be on your own models, etc. It is likely that some restrictions are intended. Probably, only generators of the squadron being activated can be affected.

Finally, you can modify results by -1. This is never beneficial to the user of the generator. The intent seems to be to allow offensive use of the doctrine, against an opponent's generators (otherwise, the rule would say +1 instead of +/-1). However, this interpretation conflicts with the previously established intent.

Long story short, I see two plausible interpretations:

a. Only during your own activations, only on a generator of the activated squadron, only allowing a +1.

b. Only during your own activations, but with the option of negatively affecting enemy (defensive) generators.

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This ability cannot be used on hostile generators. The wording will be  slightly amended to make this clear.

 

Therefore, the situations it could be used in are, from the list above:

1: Covenant defensive vs counter attacks (ok in the above ruling?) -  eg making a shield 5 be a 6 vs counterattacks

2: Covenant offensive on hostile ships or general on either depending on the generator. (no generator I can think of would give a buff in the COA turn)

 

 

It cannot be used in any of the following cases:

3: Hostile defensive vs covenant fire. - eg turning a a 5 on a shield roll vs coa fire

4: Continuous effect. (nothing to modify)

5: Covenant defensive use in hostile turn vs hostile fire (gone due to the above ruling?) 
6: Offensive/standard use by hostile ships on covenant ships or friendly ships. - eg making a sonic generator success roll of a 4 be a failed 3.
7: Defensive on hostile ships vs covenant counterattacks. - eg making a shield 5 be a 6
 
 
James

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So, without wanting to sound like a petty childish selfish little scientist... What good is this ability? As far as my memory serves me we only have 3 generators that require a roll during our own turn; target painter (no benefit from red six), disruption (no benefit from red six) and the very very very occasional shield against enemy defensive ack ack.

Aside from the ludicrously situational shield rolls, this does not seem useful (and indeed the bit about RED sixes seems totally useless... Unless this means you can target paint twice)

Disruption gens in the coa are a bit of an oddball idea, since it is more than likely going to kill our own shields. I will admit it may be situationally useful. A rare situation.

Target painters... Active on a 3+ is an ok boost, but we only have a few of these gens and inv scientists usually means a succcesfull target paint anyway.

Oh. I forgot one. Mine control gen. A slight increase in mine movement. Can't say it is terribly useful here either.

So please say I am a fool, please say I am wrong, please say that the coolest-faction-by-far doesn't have a lame duck of a doctrine. Reveal to me the secrets I have missed :(

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So, without wanting to sound like a petty childish selfish little scientist... What good is this ability? As far as my memory serves me we only have 3 generators that require a roll during our own turn; target painter (no benefit from red six), disruption (no benefit from red six) and the very very very occasional shield against enemy defensive ack ack.

Aside from the ludicrously situational shield rolls, this does not seem useful (and indeed the bit about RED sixes seems totally useless... Unless this means you can target paint twice)

Disruption gens in the coa are a bit of an oddball idea, since it is more than likely going to kill our own shields. I will admit it may be situationally useful. A rare situation.

Target painters... Active on a 3+ is an ok boost, but we only have a few of these gens and inv scientists usually means a succcesfull target paint anyway.

Oh. I forgot one. Mine control gen. A slight increase in mine movement. Can't say it is terribly useful here either.

So please say I am a fool, please say I am wrong, please say that the coolest-faction-by-far doesn't have a lame duck of a doctrine. Reveal to me the secrets I have missed :(

It's even worse then that as our other doctrine is TAC card based and those are optional rules. The COA commodore is effectively a generic commodore with fix it, safe passage, Pass the Tools, and nothing else.

 

Edit: And people said that I was imagining things when I said the CoA got the shaft in the 2.0 development. I'm just about done with this game.

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TAC are not optional

If you and your opponent choose you can decide NOT to follow the 7 rules of list building (page 70 commodore)

 

I was afraid this would be the answer. Rather than reworded it can the ability be changed to something different please?

With the ability to make shields better vs counter attacks, and a +1 to a couple of generators ONLY makes this power really useless, and quite frankly makes the COA abilities by far the worst of the lot, just like 1.1. -_-

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If you and your opponent choose you can decide NOT to follow the 7 rules of list building (page 70 commodore)

 

Isn't that merely a choice on the part of the players though? In the same way they can agree to not follow the force composition?

 

I only have the admiral edition, so I can't find the exact page you're refering to.

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Isn't that merely a choice on the part of the players though? In the same way they can agree to not follow the force composition?

 

I only have the admiral edition, so I can't find the exact page you're refering to.

Section A3 first page, green box.

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So yes, that's optional in the same way that you have the option to ignore force composition.

 

TAC are however a prequisite for a 'standard' game.

 

edit: I can understand the issue right now, when TAC aren't in common use yet, but I think that once everyone start to pick it up as 'standard' then things should be better

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So yes, that's optional in the same way that you have the option to ignore force composition.

 

TAC are however a prequisite for a 'standard' game.

 

edit: I can understand the issue right now, when TAC aren't in common use yet, but I think that once everyone start to pick it up as 'standard' then things should be better

I don't really see how TAC is any different then the STAR card of 1.1. Hell we have a 2.0 tournament coming up run by a Vanguard and even it won't include TAC, so I question them ever becoming 'standard'.

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The reason why you're probably not using it at the tournament is that until recently the only way to get the TAC cards was from buying the Op:Shadow Hunter boxed starter (obviously not every one wants to do so) and even now they're generally only available online as far as I can tell.

 

People will sooner or later, have to wrap their mind around the fact that under 2.0, TAC sit in about the same level as Local Air Support or force composition.

 

I mean... how would you react if someone told you: sorry I don't want to play with force composition or local air support? You can of course agree with them, but then you're also free to refuse because playing with those rules are 'standard'.

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I don't really see how TAC is any different then the STAR card of 1.1. Hell we have a 2.0 tournament coming up run by a Vanguard and even it won't include TAC, so I question them ever becoming 'standard'.

 

alot of tournament also dont use rule 3 so they are a bad example of is something that is or is not going to be standard. the way the rule are setup as a op out not in which means if you setup a game with some one they would most likely guess you are using TACs in the same way they would guess you are using local air support.

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I'm okay with the new cards- they're pretty interesting and stuff.

 

But we're not here for that, we're here to talk about how terrible the Overload the Generator ability is- because even in a game with no restrictions such as "no cards", it's still nigh-useless.

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I DO kinda agree with that... I don't think OtG is all that bad...  but neither is it good.

 

The fact that both CoA doctrines are somewhat 'meh', means that they certainly got the short end of the stick (when it comes to Commodores anyhow) -_-

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Tincancapitan. I would appreciate if you would stop spouting stuff because your upset. Everyone on the boards as well as in our game group very clearly understand that you feel the COA got the shaft and are the "worst nation" in 2.0 thanks to your many arguements in both the boards and at the FLGS. I think judging by the overwhelming majority of responses in both areas that you stand as the vocal minority.

I would also like to take the moment to point out if you would vary your build up more maybe players would not know what to expect. Euclid, Epicurious, fresnels in every game and when the points are larger the Prometheus and more fresnels.

The fact that I was a beta tester and vanguard has nothing to do with the way the tournament Tia setup. It is done bases on previous experience running tournaments with the general feeling about the cards in out FLGS taken into account.

Maybe your forgetting the EotBS also has a TAC card based commodore ability that will be useless. Won't stop izzy from playing them during the tournament.

And for everyone else. :)

If you read the section. During any friendly game players may choose which of the 7 rules to follow during fleet setup.

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I must strongly disagree with the assertion that the coa are weak or got shafted. We did not! Aside from remaining the coolest faction and therefore winning the moral victory every time we deploy, we have a lot of spectacular units and an awesome array of options. Flexibility and adaptability second only to the eotbs (imo) and the absolute best supporting vessels in the game.

Now in the doctrines we have a flavourfull tac card ability that, whilst not terribly useful, is nice. And a borderline useless ability that could be much better. That (and only that) is where I think the coa have suffered in comparison to other nations.

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Tincancpt. You know our group isn't big on the tac cards mainly because not every one has them, but your not the only one with a "dead" commandore ability! You know I'm a major EotBS player in our group and I've learned to live with out a ability, also the reason your saying the COA is under powered is cause you play the exact models everytime. You've seen our fleets and how wild they become, especially my squid only force! We're always trying new things, not the same 3 models every build.

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Tincancpt. You know our group isn't big on the tac cards mainly because not every one has them, but your not the only one with a "dead" commandore ability! You know I'm a major EotBS player in our group and I've learned to live with out a ability, also the reason your saying the COA is under powered is cause you play the exact models everytime. You've seen our fleets and how wild they become, especially my squid only force! We're always trying new things, not the same 3 models every build.

True enough I guess, but I am limited to the models that I have available as even proxies can only do so much though perhaps once I get the new box I can vary my build better or perhaps I should focus on playing my Chinese who knows. I think in the immediate future I will be taking a break from DW to do Pathfinder. If nothing else it will allow me to cool my head on some of this stuff with DW.

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I must strongly disagree with the assertion that the coa are weak or got shafted. We did not! Aside from remaining the coolest faction and therefore winning the moral victory every time we deploy, we have a lot of spectacular units and an awesome array of options. Flexibility and adaptability second only to the eotbs (imo) and the absolute best supporting vessels in the game.

Now in the doctrines we have a flavourfull tac card ability that, whilst not terribly useful, is nice. And a borderline useless ability that could be much better. That (and only that) is where I think the coa have suffered in comparison to other pnations.

Couldn't agree more.

Sky Captain

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