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So...the Tribal...still has issues.

 

The crew upgrade between it and the Agincourt? Eh, That's nothing. 5 point diff there as an option

 

The guns, they match, that's nothing.

 

Better CR, that's probably worth 5 points.

 

Piercing torpedoes...that's got to be worth 5/10 points...but I feel like for the cost the tribal should have them...(as should the support

cruiser really but it functionally does most of the time so I won't complain).
 

Internal vs Extrenal generator? That's probably not worth five points but maybe I'm wrong? It is a disadvantage no matter how small.

 

No RB1 Torpedoes? Fixed Arc, firing vs the presence of a turret? That's big if you ask me. 5 points at least.

 

Less 1 AA? Over a full squadron this adds up for a linked attack...I think it's pretty major on the squadron level but only about a couple of points a model on the individual level?

 

What's this mean? Well 5, 10, 15, and some change to possibly 25 depending on the actual value of some things and the difference of the crew upgrade? We're talking...30 points less vessel for only 10 points less?

 

I want to like the Tribal spartan.

 

Here are some suggestions I feel would solve the issue:

 

Add piercing to it and the dominion...or just add KoB Capitals have piercing on all torpedoes. This just should be to fit the rest of the navy. This is on top of other suggestions.

 

  • Add an option to take the second gun allowing a Guardian Gen feet a medium surface option that takes advantage of the generator that the KoB are known for and drop the cost of the shield cruiser 5 or 10 points more. It just doesn't have the same tactical advantage to have the shield on such a lightly armored vessel when there are so many other vessels providing shield dice for local vessels anyways.
  • Give it piercing on it's turrets instead of providing more guns, the air and land forces have a piercing gunnery option and this might provide it some flexibility or use that you don't see in other KoB medium surface vessels.
  • Change the torpedo profile. The KoB have been fighting the EotBS the entire war. RB1 capable torpedoes with no RB4 or even RB1/2 only super scarry for it's size torpedoes would be great, giving it sharp turn or improved engines to support the later option might be needed.
  • Change the torpedoes...add faster torpedoes from the Japanese technological salvage.
  • Give it stoic crew and one additional point of AP for free and add an option for elite crew. The tribal is one of the oldest and most common vessels in the fleet that has been in service against prussians pirates and...everyone else. Extended Range might also be a cool option for this sort of change.
  • Add an internal tesla generator? Weren't tribals used to escort merchants and fight pirates? Isn't that what that generator does?

Anyways...For the most part...the fleets seem like they've become amazingly better and that vessels are a choice. But other than wanting BGs for card reasons I feel like the tribal is still a bit of a shot in my own foot even if it is better than it was.

 

Impressed but always willing to try to help?

 

Shadow

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I would definitely support Piercing Torpedoes on the Tribal/dominion. After playing a full squadron of them in a few games I'm not convinced that they're worth their points yet, especially in smaller points games. At 1000 points, that's over a quarter of my fleet sinked into that squadron, where I think a squadron of two Agincourts will do more for quite a bit less.

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I'm not sure many of these options make sense for me:

 

...

 

Add piercing to it and the dominion...or just add KoB Capitals have piercing on all torpedoes. This just should be to fit the rest of the navy. This is on top of other suggestions.

 

  • Add an option to take the second gun allowing a Guardian Gen feet a medium surface option that takes advantage of the generator that the KoB are known for and drop the cost of the shield cruiser 5 or 10 points more. It just doesn't have the same tactical advantage to have the shield on such a lightly armored vessel when there are so many other vessels providing shield dice for local vessels anyways.

Because 32/25/18/11 might be a bit extreme. Especially for 240pts.

  • Give it piercing on it's turrets instead of providing more guns, the air and land forces have a piercing gunnery option and this might provide it some flexibility or use that you don't see in other KoB medium surface vessels.

Not a bad suggestion - I actually like your fleet-wide MAR idea...

  • Change the torpedo profile. The KoB have been fighting the EotBS the entire war. RB1 capable torpedoes with no RB4 or even RB1/2 only super scarry for it's size torpedoes would be great, giving it sharp turn or improved engines to support the later option might be needed.

Why homogenise these different fleets? You rarely see any one faction 'copying' another directly in DW.

  • Change the torpedoes...add faster torpedoes from the Japanese technological salvage.

Again, why make KoB into EoBS?

  • Give it stoic crew and one additional point of AP for free and add an option for elite crew. The tribal is one of the oldest and most common vessels in the fleet that has been in service against prussians pirates and...everyone else. Extended Range might also be a cool option for this sort of change.

Would this change make you consider it over the Agincourt? What does its' new role entail now?

  • Add an internal tesla generator? Weren't tribals used to escort merchants and fight pirates? Isn't that what that generator does?

Not sure this synergises well with KoB as a whole - extra movement would be nice, but doesn't exactly fit in with the other ships in the fleet. Also, KoB don't tend to use offensive generators And do you really want to be copying the Prussians? ;)

 

Isn't the simplest option to lower the price of the Tribal by 5-10pts?

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The piercing torpedoes being left off the tribal is probably the thing that confuses me the most about it's issues. The tribal is a 'heavy' cruiser of sorts and it seems odd that it (as well as the dominion which is a super torpedo support vessel?) would be lacking such an important utility of KoB torpedoes.

 

Will:

 

I feel like further dropping the points of the tribal would bring it into a light cruiser bracket which it doesn't really 'look like' and while I would like a light cruiser I'm fine with that being something else.

 

The torpedo from EotBS technology was inspired by the fact that they used this exact reasoning to explain the new french torpedo turrets, currently the british lack a true brawler ship and if the tribal has RB1 torpedoes to brawl with as they thread the needle it could offer unique niche for a heavy cruiser over a gunship. The French, Italians, and EotBS all have RB1 torpedo technology the British could have taken and equipped to older vessels in order to protect the fleet from close engagement threats.

 

The tribal as a boarding vessel (and it is a quite 'bulky' cruiser so it looks to have the space) would provide a utility on a cruiser/corvette boarding focused fleet.

 

Having the tesla generator would allow it to be more manueverable than the gunship and allow it a different type of punch to disable enemy generators or kill ap. Currently the british have no answer within the fleet for the new EotBS phase generator other than disproportionate firepower for instance. Tesla generators are not reliably any one sort of damage but they do provide a spectacular variety of effects that might provide them a place protecting important ships by giving something to worry about in RB1.

 

These are gaps the tribal can fill without leaving something else in the fleet 'almost identical'.

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Having looked at the Tribal in comparison to other cruisers, I can't say that it is a bad vessel or not worth its points.

The only problem it faces is the internal competition with the Agincourt, and if they are going to share such a close price point then their roles have to be made very distinct.

Now we could solve the internal problem by upping the cost of the Agincourt and lowering the price of the Tribal by 5. This might work (and the Tribal at 75 pts wouldn't really be undercosted imo, even if I stand by my assertion that it is worth 80)

Alternatively, we keep them sharing a similar price bracket and play around with their respective roles. I like the idea of having the Tribal become more or a brawler. Shift all it's torpedos back a range band (so no RB4 but strong RB1) and give it the option for a more aggressive type of AP (I can't remember the type atm) and maybe give it piercing turret ammo just for good measure. This would make a ship that really likes to get stuck in at RB1 whilst the rest of the fleet hovers at RB2. It would give us a nice option with a different role than the Agincourt.

Actually, keeping the option for stoic would fit the national character even on a brawler ship. Yes it wouldn't be the best boarder but then that is not the british thing, and therefore probably should not be a feature of our bog standard cruiser...

Come to think of it, if the cruiser is a common vessel that is eant to by quite typically british, maybe we should be looking to change the Agincourt into a more out-of-character type vessel for the fleet...

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Having looked at the Tribal in comparison to other cruisers, I can't say that it is a bad vessel or not worth its points.

The only problem it faces is the internal competition with the Agincourt, and if they are going to share such a close price point then their roles have to be made very distinct.

Now we could solve the internal problem by upping the cost of the Agincourt and lowering the price of the Tribal by 5. This might work (and the Tribal at 75 pts wouldn't really be undercosted imo, even if I stand by my assertion that it is worth 80)

Alternatively, we keep them sharing a similar price bracket and play around with their respective roles. I like the idea of having the Tribal become more or a brawler. Shift all it's torpedos back a range band (so no RB4 but strong RB1) and give it the option for a more aggressive type of AP (I can't remember the type atm) and maybe give it piercing turret ammo just for good measure. This would make a ship that really likes to get stuck in at RB1 whilst the rest of the fleet hovers at RB2. It would give us a nice option with a different role than the Agincourt.

Actually, keeping the option for stoic would fit the national character even on a brawler ship. Yes it wouldn't be the best boarder but then that is not the british thing, and therefore probably should not be a feature of our bog standard cruiser...

Come to think of it, if the cruiser is a common vessel that is eant to by quite typically british, maybe we should be looking to change the Agincourt into a more out-of-character type vessel for the fleet...

I would be ok with it keeping the 80 point bar. Dropping torpedoes to RB1/2/3/- with the same spread they have otherwise and adding piercing to the torpedoes and close quarters gunnery to the guns would do it.

 

Mind that...I'd rather only push to change one vessel to fix the issue instead of fixing two to solve the problem. the Agincourt doesn't seem overdone.

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Oh indeed, I would not change both. But if one has to change then it might seem more logical that it be the Agincourt, since the Tribal is supposed to be the backbone of the standard brit fleet and should therefore reflect the national naval characteristics quite strongly.

At least that is how I see it :)

I think adding CQG to the guns would be a bit much, that is quite a powerful MAR especially on a reasonably tough old boot like the Tribal. If we were to see piercing then I don't think we could have CQG too. Of the two, piercing is the more typical of the fleet so I suspect we could reasonably hope for that.

 

On the other hand, I do like the typical british torpedo spread, not having RB1 makes you think about positioning and is a key part of the feel of the brits. It would be inconsistent for the Tribal to buck the pattern, since it has standard torp tubes rather than a turret. Maybe CQG would be a good way to change the Tribal into a brawler if the torps kept their usual spread.

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Oh indeed, I would not change both. But if one has to change then it might seem more logical that it be the Agincourt, since the Tribal is supposed to be the backbone of the standard brit fleet and should therefore reflect the national naval characteristics quite strongly.

At least that is how I see it :)

I think adding CQG to the guns would be a bit much, that is quite a powerful MAR especially on a reasonably tough old boot like the Tribal. If we were to see piercing then I don't think we could have CQG too. Of the two, piercing is the more typical of the fleet so I suspect we could reasonably hope for that.

 

On the other hand, I do like the typical british torpedo spread, not having RB1 makes you think about positioning and is a key part of the feel of the brits. It would be inconsistent for the Tribal to buck the pattern, since it has standard torp tubes rather than a turret. Maybe CQG would be a good way to change the Tribal into a brawler if the torps kept their usual spread.

I think that the torpedoes would need piercing to be able to compete with the Agi.

CQG on a redoubtable gun could be sufficient to make it a solid brawler with the ability to skirmish before coming in to gun something down...Maybe adding piercing to the torpedoes and CQG to the guns would do the trick rather well...

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Tribal compares far too closely to Georgetown Mk.3 for me to not think it should be a 75 pt vessel. With piercing torpedoes, it'd make sense at 80, but at that point there'd be even less in common between her amd Agincourt.

Of the ideas proposed thus far, I like the idea of Close Quarter Gunnery or a piercing turret. Aggressive Crew seems wrong on a vessel that should be one of the most common British vessels, and RB1 torpedoes just doesn't seem right either.

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I was thinking in these lines - why not give Tribals an option to swap a generator for second turret on ONE ship in a unit, kind of "up gunned" cruiser. Not sure if it is not to much. (160 points for unit of 2 with 3 turrets or 240 points for unit of 3 with 4 turrets or 320 points for unit of 4 with 5 turrets(2 cruisers+1"up gunned"+1support cruiser))

 

Pros:

we already have spare turrets

might be an option if you want more turrets

 

Cons:

isnt it a bit too much?

how it changes attitude towards Agincourts?

 

Shift all it's torpedos back a range band (so no RB4 but strong RB1) and maybe give it piercing turret ammo just for good measure.

 

I like consintency so I opose that bit about torpedoes. Brittish do not fire torpedoes in RB1, unless it is from tp turret. So why not standardise this: if torpedoes cant fire in RB1, it means they are heavy and they have piercing. If they they can fire in RB1, they do not have piercing. Nice, simple, consistent. Solves issue with Dominions and Tribals but it affects Agincourts as well.

 

What do you think?

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For me would work - lowering the price or 15 aggressive AP (like I was suggesting in other thread, elite is too much in my opinion) or changing-adding generator (2 generators on medium ship - sounds pretty KoB) , don't know for which one, Tesla sounds ok, mayby Guardian (2,8",+1) or Mine Controller.

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I'd say give them Piercing on their Torpedoes, or on the Turret. Maybe both...? Give's them the role of trying to cripple enemy ships via Critical Effects (hopefully aiming for that Chaos and Disarray or Generators Offline) even if they don't managed to reach that CR, so that follow up volleys of redoubtable Gunnery and torpedoes can tear through the now hopefully defenseless enemy targets.

Also, I wouldn't give them Elite or Aggressive AP, as Stoic is just so very... British. :P

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I'd say give them Piercing on their Torpedoes, or on the Turret. Maybe both...?

 

Ok, but it has been pointed out that in comparison to others nations cruisers is Tribal doing good. So with piercing you are suggesting point increase as well?

 

Agree on Aggressive AP, I would not like see that on Tribals.

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Fixed channel on the torpedoes mean using the p/s ones and fore in the same turn basically never happens.

 

If it had the rule that it could only fire one Torpedo system per activation, but cost 70 that would be more similar to other faction cruisers (i.e. defence OR other ability (e.g. generator), + 1 main turret, + 1 subweapon system), would that seem fair?

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I understand that stoic crew is good for fluff, but it isn't very useful on cruisers or any mediums with good AP, maybe add diehard on Tribals to make them super stable. I don't like idea of changing turret or adding Mar's on it, prefer standards for similar weapon system.

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No exceptions on general rules please :-)

Yep, so as a thought experiment if it had that, would it be fair?

 

If so, the Tribal is effectively like that anyway thanks to the restrictive nature of the torpedo arcs so perhaps should be costed as such.

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The funny thing is, the two turreted tribal probably would have been the better option, if it was too powerful, just reduce the turret dice and give it piercing or something. After using the Agincourt a few times, im not impressed by that either for 90, loosing that point of aa really hurts when playing japz, and their fire power is certainly not comparably to the Tambov or the tanuki.

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The piercing torpedoes being left off the tribal is probably the thing that confuses me the most about it's issues. The tribal is a 'heavy' cruiser of sorts and it seems odd that it (as well as the dominion which is a super torpedo support vessel?) would be lacking such an important utility of KoB torpedoes.

 

Will:

 

I feel like further dropping the points of the tribal would bring it into a light cruiser bracket which it doesn't really 'look like' and while I would like a light cruiser I'm fine with that being something else.

 

The torpedo from EotBS technology was inspired by the fact that they used this exact reasoning to explain the new french torpedo turrets, currently the british lack a true brawler ship and if the tribal has RB1 torpedoes to brawl with as they thread the needle it could offer unique niche for a heavy cruiser over a gunship. The French, Italians, and EotBS all have RB1 torpedo technology the British could have taken and equipped to older vessels in order to protect the fleet from close engagement threats.

 

The tribal as a boarding vessel (and it is a quite 'bulky' cruiser so it looks to have the space) would provide a utility on a cruiser/corvette boarding focused fleet.

 

Having the tesla generator would allow it to be more manueverable than the gunship and allow it a different type of punch to disable enemy generators or kill ap. Currently the british have no answer within the fleet for the new EotBS phase generator other than disproportionate firepower for instance. Tesla generators are not reliably any one sort of damage but they do provide a spectacular variety of effects that might provide them a place protecting important ships by giving something to worry about in RB1.

 

These are gaps the tribal can fill without leaving something else in the fleet 'almost identical'.

 

If the Tribal is a heavy cruiser, what does that make the Agincourt? Could that be the route of the problem - 2 different heavy cruisers (not 1 heavy cruiser with 2 marks).

I'm just unsure about giving it something new or extra to the rest of the fleet. Why would you put your brand new torpedo or generator technology on one cruiser, but not your battleships? A thought did strike me, though: How about a Guardian Generator (8", 2), instead of Shield Generator? Does that cover the escort role?

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My 2p....

The points value of the "Tribal" are higher than you think as it has 2 Torpedo Batteries (1 Port and 1 Starboard), where as the Agincourt has a single 270 degree rear turret. So the points are similar, despite the Agincourt's aparent superiority in DR.

 

You have to make your own mind up as the usefulness of having additional torpedo launchers, but this could be useful is if it could charge between enemy lines and use both batteries simultaneously. Unfortunatly the minimum +8" range handicaps thought this, so it is perhaps not that useful and is worth the additional points?

 

Prehaps the Stoic Crew should be standard on the "Tribals" rather than a 5 point additional cost, as a way of revalidating the points. 

 

Spike

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So from what I gather listening to everyone.

 

We all agree that the tribal needs a little something to set it apart from the Agi.

 

Most people are of the opinion that the aggressive crew would not be in character and many people feel that the RB1 gap torpedoes are british character and that we should not breach that. Many people feel that stoic crew is not that much of a game changer on a tribal.

To keep the changes in mind simple it seems like the two most popular ideas are:

Add munitions(piercing, torpedoes+primary gunnery) and stoic for free

 

or

 

Add munitions(piercing, torpedoes) and close quarters gunnery

 

 

While in some cases I will say that a guardian generator could be useful in many it is not because of the WIDE variety of ways the British fleet already has to access these generators, so while it could be a nice option I don't feel it actually adds any use to the ship because we all ready have a huge number of guardians, some of which have a stunning 16" 2 dice range...I think this idea has great flavor but I do not feel it is that useful, it might be more useful if we also added Attachment (KoB Naval, Medium+small, 1) to the tribal to allow one to be put in a dominion unit or sent to escort some subs or frigates or destroyers, but on it's own as a cruiser or even in a unit of three with a dominion it's not much use. Inversely three dominions and a guardian carrying cruiser could be far more useful.

 

The other options I've seen mentioned, mine controller generator: we don't have any other mine controller generators so I'm not sure this is a good choice, mines themselves might be cool  but there's none on the model...I suppose it could drop them out of it's fat belly some how. Magnetic mines are an option I suppose..but I'm not sure. We don't need a mine sweeper but a pulse generator(8") on a minelayer could be a fun advanced force vessel.

 

As an escort model you could make it's AA/CC redoubtable and add the attachment rules...but I'm still not sure on this solution. It has flavor, but...we don't really need it?

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