[2.0] Torpedoes - are they worth it?

[lordVigo]

Tribal just need upgrade to aggressive crew, not stoic, with this change it will be good alternative to Agincourt.

[sleeping_squirrel]

Looking at Kob crews, aggressive is not particularly British and it goes against meta as well. These are stout men, not crazy frogmen or Aussies :-)

[lordVigo]

And what about Swift, Valiant, Vanguard? If it will become the only KoB naval with this tipe of crew, a lot of people will think about Tribal like wery flexibal unit. You always can said that there Scotsman crew there.

[sleeping_squirrel]

Vanguard have aggressive crew, not sure if it is wise to have two "cruiser" (light and normal) options with same type of crew...

[lordVigo]

It's not greate indeed, but it's option on Tribal (mayby for +10, not +5) and there still huge difference in price and role, Vanguard have specific role, Tribal is all arounder.

[Bobthefat]

The only thing flexible about the tribal is in the way it choses to be butchered.

[TImSteve]

I've built myself a sub focussed KoB fleet for the new rules (having been using a max ablative RC fleet in 1.1) and I've been having fun with torps. I've found that they are pretty hopeless against large/massive targets but that they can smash small/mediums out the way quite easily, leaving the way open to mob the bigger ships with pretty evil crew types (all the sub crews hit on 3+).

I've really only found 2 things that surprise me so far:

1- 16" target painter just doesn't work. Its a lovely bonus but not a primary option, using it means you are far too close to the enemy. A vengeance can potentially board a target it paints at MAX range...


2- Piecing is awesome. mostly I like piercing for when a target gets lucky with CC/shields. While a single point of HP loss is nothing most of the crit results can have enormous impacts on the game. I'd take piercing over faster torps any day as it gives you more chance for a game changing crit roll



As for tribals I agree that they are just lesser-agincourts. Only reason to take them is not being able to fit in the points for the ship you actually want... but there's another thread for that.

[Presidente]

Ive always thought it should have been 24, we are a ranged faction, maybe not on everything but certainly the vengeance. Biggest problems ive hit with the vengeance is, lowing its cr 8 really really hurts it and its probably one of the only ships nearly purely built for ramming, yet it has no defence vs the damage it suffers when ramming itself, iron ram was great for this.

[Banimal]

Amen to the Target Painter, TimSteve! I've used one in three different games and I've only seen it roll higher than a 3 once!

[The Hamster]

That's nothing new, though. Target painters usually only work reliably if you bring a lot of them. A Vengeance, 2 Dominions and a Majesty with target painter produced good results for me, but if it was worth the hassle I can't say. The combination of Dominions and a Maesty so that they can profit form the Guardian Gen is nice and produced crushing torpedo salvoes. But it's quite expensive and can be countered by moving a single ship in between your torps and your target. I simply wouldn't rely on the torps and just keep them in mind for the late game when there are not too many options for block LOS so easily.

[shad0wb0w]

Piercing torpedoes are doing a charming job of ruining the Foes of the brits around my home right now, the blasted Suns hardly know what hit them.

[likeAsir]

last weekend in a 1500 pt game I sunk a stormbringer prussian large sub

at RB 4

 

on turn one.

With only Torps.

 

Torps are more difficult to use but hit harder. Like Solar said, most units have poor CC compared to AA. Most factions have either
a: more dice for their size with torps
or

b: piercing, faster or another MAR.

 

torpedos often have great die that does not decrease until the model dies. Yes lots of torps dont work at RB1, but some do and at RB 2 they fire monstrous numbers of dice (Damn, that vengeance!). 

Like Rockets Torps are far more effective in combination with other weapons. Use one units turrets to cause some damage, next activation fire torps.

In conclusion Torps are more difficult to use and will never solely win the game. But they are damn  rewarding if you play them right.

It is almost like the game rewards combined arms and clever positioning of your units...

 

RHLS LAS

 

[constable]

well written likeAsir! I have been using the EICM quite often lately and the main turrets are much easier to use and the more versatile weapon (obvious) but in the end it was the torps that won me at least one game as my fleet was quite crippled but there were still torpedo turrets left on some of my ships. Of course the power of a torpedo turret is a much better one than fixed channels...

[Stiff upper lip]

For the medium and small units I like torpedoes. They can dish out quite some damage. Piercing is a nice insurance, you still get a crit effect when you pass the DR. For the large/ massive units I am less fond of torpedoes as mostly the AD numbers are too low. Vengeance is the exception.

[Presidente]

Just when you think of weapons for naval warfare, torpedoes probably should be on the top, hitting a ship under the waterline and all, yet they are hardest to use and most defiantly at the bottom of specialised weapons. From trying out the fsa, sometimes a few more rockets are shot down, but the 360 firing arcs more than makes up for it.

[Stiff upper lip]

Yes, but isn't that normally off set by lower CC numbers? I agree, it is harder too use torpedoes because of the fixed channel, but I generally have no problem pointing the trouble end of the boats towards my enemy.

When they hit, with piercing ammo, they are on top. As in real life you have to point the boat towards the enemy (in the past at least). 

[Watchdog]

Yes, but isn't that normally off set by lower CC numbers? I agree, it is harder too use torpedoes because of the fixed channel, but I generally have no problem pointing the trouble end of the boats towards my enemy.

When they hit, with piercing ammo, they are on top. As in real life you have to point the boat towards the enemy (in the past at least). 

 

What I see as a problem with the torpedoes is that submerged submarines should be deadly to surface vessels, which is not the case in DW, where the submerged submarines only hit surface models on 5+. The KoB is a submarine superpower, yet its submarines are best not in hunting the surface vessels, but rather in hunting other submarines.

 

In my opinion submarines should have a bonus to hit surface vessels, not submerged submarines, when submerged themselves.

[Falconer]

What I see as a problem with the torpedoes is that submerged submarines should be deadly to surface vessels, which is not the case in DW, where the submerged submarines only hit surface models on 5+. The KoB is a submarine superpower, yet its submarines are best not in hunting the surface vessels, but rather in hunting other submarines.

 

In my opinion submarines should have a bonus to hit surface vessels, not submerged submarines, when submerged themselves.

 

Actually, in the 2 WWs, submarines were mainly deadly to freighters. Warships were very deadly to submarines which is why the convoy system spelt doom to the U-boats.

 

A higher percentage of seamen died in U-boats in WW2 than in any other part of shipping service, military or civilian.

[shad0wb0w]

What I see as a problem with the torpedoes is that submerged submarines should be deadly to surface vessels, which is not the case in DW, where the submerged submarines only hit surface models on 5+. The KoB is a submarine superpower, yet its submarines are best not in hunting the surface vessels, but rather in hunting other submarines.

 

In my opinion submarines should have a bonus to hit surface vessels, not submerged submarines, when submerged themselves.

I will point out that 16 dice of piercing torpedoes from some vanguards is a huge attack and is likely to get atleast a pierce on many vessels. and hitting on 5+ you still get roughly .6 hits per die.

 

Meanwhile it takes an inordinate amount of fire to uproot diving models within 16" of a british dread. 

[Watchdog]

Actually, in the 2 WWs, submarines were mainly deadly to freighters. Warships were very deadly to submarines which is why the convoy system spelt doom to the U-boats.

 

A higher percentage of seamen died in U-boats in WW2 than in any other part of shipping service, military or civilian.

 

Good point, though the DW feels more like WWI.

[Watchdog]

I will point out that 16 dice of piercing torpedoes from some vanguards is a huge attack and is likely to get atleast a pierce on many vessels. and hitting on 5+ you still get roughly .6 hits per die.

 

Meanwhile it takes an inordinate amount of fire to uproot diving models within 16" of a british dread. 

 

Well, I m not sure that Dreadnoughts are played so often.

 

In our group of 11 players there are only 4 Dreadnoughts, 2 of which are mine. It is generally considered polite to only play a Dreadnought if the other player can do the same and agrees to you playing it. I admit that this is not the problem of DW rules as such, though.

 

I have yet to learn how to effectively play my KoB submarines. Ramming seems to be causing a hell of a lot of more damage than the torpedoes in my games.

[shad0wb0w]

Well, I m not sure that Dreadnoughts are played so often.

 

In our group of 11 players there are only 4 Dreadnoughts, 2 of which are mine. It is generally considered polite to only play a Dreadnought if the other player can do the same and agrees to you playing it. I admit that this is not the problem of DW rules as such, though.

 

I have yet to learn how to effectively play my KoB submarines. Ramming seems to be causing a hell of a lot of more damage than the torpedoes in my games.

In my experience (as I like my subs a lot) there are a few things you can do to 'get more' firing your subs in salvo (3x attacks) at one target that you have a reasonable chance of damaging means that they may only defend against one attack unless they have shields. Stack piercing rolls on the same ship. Surface and ram after the enemy closes with you otherwise stay submerged and snipe as long as you can.

 

Your subs while diving also have the ability to fire under ships so you can use them to apply force where the enemy gets too close for other ships to fire torpedoes, this also means that they will almost certainly be in range of your torpedo painters.

 

Typically I put a unit with 3 agincourts and a dominion as a brawling unit at the front of my fleet.

 

 

Additionally a squadron of subs of any give size is a way to deny the destroy X class objectives (and a commodore on a vengeance is really hard to get to).

[Watchdog]

In my experience (as I like my subs a lot) there are a few things you can do to 'get more' firing your subs in salvo (3x attacks) at one target that you have a reasonable chance of damaging means that they may only defend against one attack unless they have shields. Stack piercing rolls on the same ship. Surface and ram after the enemy closes with you otherwise stay submerged and snipe as long as you can.

 

Your subs while diving also have the ability to fire under ships so you can use them to apply force where the enemy gets too close for other ships to fire torpedoes, this also means that they will almost certainly be in range of your torpedo painters.

 

Typically I put a unit with 3 agincourts and a dominion as a brawling unit at the front of my fleet.

 

 

Additionally a squadron of subs of any give size is a way to deny the destroy X class objectives (and a commodore on a vengeance is really hard to get to).

 

This is new information to me.

 

The submarines can fire their torpedoes without having LOS to the target?

[shad0wb0w]

This is new information to me.

 

The submarines can fire their torpedoes without having LOS to the target?

While diving nothing blocks LOS.

 

EDIT:

 

What I mean by this is that while diving no surface vessels block line of sight. This is the only way you can fire past your own ships in the current rules.

[Watchdog]

While diving nothing blocks LOS.

 

EDIT:

 

What I mean by this is that while diving no surface vessels block line of sight. This is the only way you can fire past your own ships in the current rules.

 

Oh, this is actually good news. This makes my submarines much more dangerous, while allowing some LOS blocking protection.